Fields vs. Hackett - CD6, Fusion, etc.

[slemke]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Be under no illusion that Ford paints a lot of blue sky when it suits them but also stay silent on promoting 

future products that would bolster confidence in management and it's control of the company.

 

To anyone watching, leading people to think that you're investing $900 million in a plant to seal an agreement 

and then dishonoring that without warning or reason shows how two faced Ford can be in these negotiations.

Completely agree.  Ford sold the contract on providing a certain amount of investment in each plant.  What we don’t know is under what terms Ford is allowed to change that investment and what if any warning they are required to provide.  Fuzzy knows, but he might be under NDA.

 

 

[snooter]

Is this the "protected forum"......lotta crying back then to remove alternative viewpoints as i remember......employee owned companies have a dismal record of survivorship......i would strongly urge ford to add capacity in mexico and let the uaw work with mexican gov't....may be reality needs to sink-in and that might do it....

[jpd80]

8 hours ago, slemke said:

Completely agree.  Ford sold the contract on providing a certain amount of investment in each plant.  What we don’t know is under what terms Ford is allowed to change that investment and what if any warning they are required to provide.  Fuzzy knows, but he might be under NDA.

Honestly, I think it's a Goodwill thing and a guarantee of no disruption during the life of the contract,

it's disappointing that Ford went back on their agreement but to me, putting BEV utilities at OHAOP,

a truck and Van plant seemed a bit far fetched from get go. I bet that Ford looked at the $900 million

spend and realised that the two utes would never sell enough to justify it, that's why they're off to Mexico. 

[ice-capades]

I never understood the original plan to put BEV's into OHAP... a plant that for so many years has been committed to Super Duty and chassis production.

 

Any discussion about Ford's recent announcement, the UAW reaction, media attention and reports, etc. are all based on incomplete information and unknown terms of the actual contract between Ford and the UAW and the ability for Ford to modify the agreement. In addition, it's unknown what discussions or communications were exchanged between the parties prior to public disclosure. The contract hasn't expired yet and I'd expect that Ford has the ability to make whatever changes they desire with the appropriate notice and in accordance with the applicable contract terms. Ford owns the facilities, not the UAW. 

 

Ford still has time to fulfill their commitment for additional investment at OHAP. It's not unreasonable to assume that there's a lot going on behind the scenes between Ford and the UAW and unknown factors such as motivation, negotiation posturing and a lot of other factors that we'll never know. I'd expect that Ford is much further along to finalizing its product plans at OHAP and other plants (Oakville, etc.) and will disclose those plans further at the appropriate time and on Ford's timetable, not the UAW's, prior to the current contact expiring.     

[Bob Rosadini]

As for Ford's statement on "increased SD production at OAP" while the obvious  "more 450/550/600" volume is one way, that works if the demand is there. 

 

A wild thought- many -myself included-have voiced the opinion that the 7.3 should be sparking a big jump in 650-750 volume.  It is the only game in town at this point if a low annual mileage operator does not want to shell out the premium for diesel.  One thing 650/750 does NOT offer is a gas engine with air brakes.  (The Ford marketers like to talk  about air that will ..."power  seats and horns-and oh yeah brakes"...as an after thought-clueless).  The air option was supposed to be available in '22.  Now it is pushed back to '23!  Might this mean that a new cab structure that will work for 450-750 AND E series is in the works?

 

The fact that OAP is working now with three cab structures (aluminum SD, steel SD, and E series) says there should be a strong case for some commonality.

 

And agree with everyone else-OAP was a truck plant.  How much commonality is  there in building trucks vs an electric Mustang?  to  me the only  thing that would have been left intact at OAP would be the roof, the walls, and the floor?.  And yes  I know- electrics are the future-but in due time.

[AGR]

56 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

As for Ford's statement on "increased SD production at OAP" while the obvious  "more 450/550/600" volume is one way, that works if the demand is there. 

 

A wild thought- many -myself included-have voiced the opinion that the 7.3 should be sparking a big jump in 650-750 volume.  It is the only game in town at this point if a low annual mileage operator does not want to shell out the premium for diesel.  One thing 650/750 does NOT offer is a gas engine with air brakes.  (The Ford marketers like to talk  about air that will ..."power  seats and horns-and oh yeah brakes"...as an after thought-clueless).  The air option was supposed to be available in '22.  Now it is pushed back to '23!  Might this mean that a new cab structure that will work for 450-750 AND E series is in the works?

 

The fact that OAP is working now with three cab structures (aluminum SD, steel SD, and E series) says there should be a strong case for some commonality.

 

And agree with everyone else-OAP was a truck plant.  How much commonality is  there in building trucks vs an electric Mustang?  to  me the only  thing that would have been left intact at OAP would be the roof, the walls, and the floor?.  And yes  I know- electrics are the future-but in due time.

 

To me, "increased SD production at OAP" means they want to move some SD pickup production from KTP to free up capacity there for more Expeditions and Navigators.

[AGR]

I don't know how tall a vehicle can be to be built at FRAP, but I looked up heights of various Euro Fords.

Focus: 1452 mm/57.2 in

Focus Active:  1502 mm/59.1 in

Mondeo: 1482 mm/58.3 in

Mustang Coupe: 1381 mm/54.4 in

Mustang Convertible: 1394 mm/54.9 in

Puma: 1536 mm/60.5 in

I entered the Focus and Mondeo for comparison purposes only. Roof rails added about 30-40mm (1.2 - 1.6 in) for Focus, Focus Active, and Mondeo wagons. Is it feasible to build Puma or Fusion Active at FRAP? (From the spy pictures, Fusion Active looks to be a similar height as Puma)

In the same publication, Edge and Explorer were both about 70 inches high.

Edited March 20, 2021 by AGR

[Broncofan7]

I do wonder if these moves would result in some extra capacity that could help make the business case for a renewed Excursion? While few would sell, I think it could be a profitable exercise if they are able to use different off-the-shelf parts from Super Duty and Expedition, if possible.

 

Didn't GM charge something like 80K or 90K for a Suburban HD in 2019?

Edited March 20, 2021 by Broncofan7

[fuzzymoomoo]

18 hours ago, slemke said:

Completely agree.  Ford sold the contract on providing a certain amount of investment in each plant.  What we don’t know is under what terms Ford is allowed to change that investment and what if any warning they are required to provide.  Fuzzy knows, but he might be under NDA.

 

 

It's all spelled out in the contract. 

[slemke]

23 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

It's all spelled out in the contract. 

Thanks Fuzzy.  I thought it would be.  The contract is confidential between Ford and the UAW, with only certain high level bullet points approved for release to the public, correct?

[slemke]

1 hour ago, Broncofan7 said:

I do wonder if these moves would result in some extra capacity that could help make the business case for a renewed Excursion? While few would sell, I think it could be a profitable exercise if they are able to use different off-the-shelf parts from Super Duty and Expedition, if possible.

 

Didn't GM charge something like 80K or 90K for a Suburban HD in 2019?

Possibly.  The Excursion still has a presence around here.  When I see one, I think it would be nice if Ford brought it back in some form.

 

Ford may just need the capacity for Expedition/Navigator and f250/350.  Sales of those have been pretty strong.  Possible hybrid versions coming.  A powerboost F250/350 could prove to be just as popular as the F150 version.

[HotRunrGuy]

22 minutes ago, slemke said:

Thanks Fuzzy.  I thought it would be.  The contract is confidential between Ford and the UAW, with only certain high level bullet points approved for release to the public, correct?

 

I believe all of it is here:  https://uaw.org/uaw-auto-bargaining/fordcontract/

 

HRG

[fuzzymoomoo]

32 minutes ago, slemke said:

Thanks Fuzzy.  I thought it would be.  The contract is confidential between Ford and the UAW, with only certain high level bullet points approved for release to the public, correct?

No, it's public record but it's hard to understand a lot of it because it was written by lawyers. 

[Broncofan7]

1 hour ago, slemke said:

Possibly.  The Excursion still has a presence around here.  When I see one, I think it would be nice if Ford brought it back in some form.

 

Ford may just need the capacity for Expedition/Navigator and f250/350.  Sales of those have been pretty strong.  Possible hybrid versions coming.  A powerboost F250/350 could prove to be just as popular as the F150 version.

 

Funnily enough, I saw two Excursions and was thinking the same thing. I'd imagine the market of people looking to buy one would be small, but loyal and profitable. I would not mind an Expedition body over a Super Duty frame of some kind, even if it was just an Expedition HD option or whatever.

 

But I think that Ford could sell significantly more Expeditions and Navigators with more capacity like you said. Plus the Super Duty of course.

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

As for Ford's statement on "increased SD production at OAP" while the obvious  "more 450/550/600" volume is one way, that works if the demand is there. 

 

A wild thought- many -myself included-have voiced the opinion that the 7.3 should be sparking a big jump in 650-750 volume.  It is the only game in town at this point if a low annual mileage operator does not want to shell out the premium for diesel.  One thing 650/750 does NOT offer is a gas engine with air brakes.  (The Ford marketers like to talk  about air that will ..."power  seats and horns-and oh yeah brakes"...as an after thought-clueless).  The air option was supposed to be available in '22.  Now it is pushed back to '23!  Might this mean that a new cab structure that will work for 450-750 AND E series is in the works?

 

The fact that OAP is working now with three cab structures (aluminum SD, steel SD, and E series) says there should be a strong case for some commonality.

 

And agree with everyone else-OAP was a truck plant.  How much commonality is  there in building trucks vs an electric Mustang?  to  me the only  thing that would have been left intact at OAP would be the roof, the walls, and the floor?.  And yes  I know- electrics are the future-but in due time.

Last month's production of F650-F750 was pulled back to about 450 odd.

The interesting thing was that KTP produced 28k SD, over 8K Expedition and ~1,900 Have.

Dearborn was back to 24k F150s, KCAP down to 15k F150, so some easing of F150 production

to keep SD supply up ( maybe F150 inventory is more filled out).

 

[slemke]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Last month's production of F650-F750 was pulled back to about 450 odd.

The interesting thing was that KTP produced 28k SD, over 8K Expedition and ~1,900 Have.

Dearborn was back to 24k F150s, KCAP down to 15k F150, so some easing of F150 production

to keep SD supply up ( maybe F150 inventory is more filled out).

 

Or it is a matter of which chips Ford can get.  There may be certain ones not available for the F150, so they divert some of the common chips to super duties and keep at least some revenue flowing.

[Bob Rosadini]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Last month's production of F650-F750 was pulled back to about 450 odd.

The interesting thing was that KTP produced 28k SD, over 8K Expedition and ~1,900 Have.

Dearborn was back to 24k F150s, KCAP down to 15k F150, so some easing of F150 production

to keep SD supply up ( maybe F150 inventory is more filled out).

 

Wasn't OAP shut down Jan, Feb, and a number of weeks this month?

[jpd80]

48 minutes ago, slemke said:

Or it is a matter of which chips Ford can get.  There may be certain ones not available for the F150, so they divert some of the common chips to super duties and keep at least some revenue flowing.

Possibly, I'm assuming that the ECUs are programmable but Ford is definitely prioritising it's more profitable vehicles.

I think the inventory for F150 is in better shape than Super duty, they also managed to produce ~2,000 stripped chassis.

[FordBuyer]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:16 AM, ice-capades said:

I never understood the original plan to put BEV's into OHAP... a plant that for so many years has been committed to Super Duty and chassis production.

 

Any discussion about Ford's recent announcement, the UAW reaction, media attention and reports, etc. are all based on incomplete information and unknown terms of the actual contract between Ford and the UAW and the ability for Ford to modify the agreement. In addition, it's unknown what discussions or communications were exchanged between the parties prior to public disclosure. The contract hasn't expired yet and I'd expect that Ford has the ability to make whatever changes they desire with the appropriate notice and in accordance with the applicable contract terms. Ford owns the facilities, not the UAW. 

 

Ford still has time to fulfill their commitment for additional investment at OHAP. It's not unreasonable to assume that there's a lot going on behind the scenes between Ford and the UAW and unknown factors such as motivation, negotiation posturing and a lot of other factors that we'll never know. I'd expect that Ford is much further along to finalizing its product plans at OHAP and other plants (Oakville, etc.) and will disclose those plans further at the appropriate time and on Ford's timetable, not the UAW's, prior to the current contact expiring.     

 

Ford hasn't even had a press release of the new Maverick yet and it goes into Job 1 mode in about 3.5 months. Still think they should call it a Ranchero. Maverick was a nondescript sedan and coupe better forgotten. 

[twintornados]

2 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Ford hasn't even had a press release of the new Maverick yet and it goes into Job 1 mode in about 3.5 months. Still think they should call it a Ranchero. Maverick was a nondescript sedan and coupe better forgotten. 

 

Maverick fits in the whole "Bronco Icon" lineup.....Ranchero can be a trim level....

[jpd80]

Horses for courses I guess........