silvrsvt Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 So apparently Ford won its case back in 2019 winning its appeal with the USG with the Chicken tax http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-orders/18-1018.Opinion.6-7-2019.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Link won't download for me but interesting that we haven't heard about this. I thought it was still on appeal because Ford lost in lower court as I recall. Either way, I think Ford had already decided to bring the production to North America so at least they'll get the taxes they paid into the escrow account back, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, bzcat said: Link won't download for me but interesting that we haven't heard about this. I thought it was still on appeal because Ford lost in lower court as I recall. Either way, I think Ford had already decided to bring the production to North America so at least they'll get the taxes they paid into the escrow account back, Reading the description of what was required to convert it to a cargo van sounded expensive. I can definitely see why they would bring production to North America. With VW supplying Europe, Ford could build a variant tailored to the US market and avoid the chicken tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, slemke said: Reading the description of what was required to convert it to a cargo van sounded expensive. Quote recycling buffs will be pleased to learn that these days the back seats and rear side glass panels that get installed and later removed from every Valencia, Spain-built Transit Connect van (to beat the "chicken tax") are now returned for reuse (they were once recycled). https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/transit-connect/2019/2019-ford-transit-connect-cargo-van-first-look/ Ripping out seats and windows doesn't sound too labor intensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, bzcat said: Link won't download for me but interesting that we haven't heard about this. I thought it was still on appeal because Ford lost in lower court as I recall. Either way, I think Ford had already decided to bring the production to North America so at least they'll get the taxes they paid into the escrow account back, It opens up a PDF...I've attached it if you want to take a look. 18-1018.Opinion.6-7-2019.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/transit-connect/2019/2019-ford-transit-connect-cargo-van-first-look/ Ripping out seats and windows doesn't sound too labor intensive. From the paper above, Ford continued to reduce the cost of the seat and amount of time it took to remove. No mention of the windows. There is also a floor panel that must be installed and a rubber mat. Add packaging and shipping cost to return the parts and it starts to add up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, silvrsvt said: It opens up a PDF...I've attached it if you want to take a look. 18-1018.Opinion.6-7-2019.pdf Ok I read thru the document. Ford actually loss the appeal so Transit Connect is subject to 25% Chicken Tax. This is the same court document that I read before that showed Ford lost the decision. I thought you posted something newer. The case history: 1. US Custom found Transit Connect was improperly classified as passenger vehicle and applies Chicken Tax. 2. Ford sued the Govt in US Court of International Trade and won - CIT ruled Ford met the letter of the law in classifying Transit Connect as passenger vehicle. 3. US Govt appealed so the case went to Federal Appeals Court. 4. Federal Appeals Court reversed CIT ruling and found in favor of US Govt that Ford was evading Chicken Tax. Edited March 17, 2021 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Probably explains why it looks like we'll be offered a warmed over Focus based Transit Connect instead of the VW Caddy with a blue oval on the hood. I've been wanting a Transit Connect since I first saw how well it swallows motorcycles a few years back and was planning on buying one about when they'd be changing over to the VW design so I could take my pick of the two. I'm disappointed, but can't really blame Ford for this Johnson era tariff that's denied us a lot of neat little trucks and vans for decades now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 15 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Probably explains why it looks like we'll be offered a warmed over Focus based Transit Connect instead of the VW Caddy with a blue oval on the hood. I've been wanting a Transit Connect since I first saw how well it swallows motorcycles a few years back and was planning on buying one about when they'd be changing over to the VW design so I could take my pick of the two. I'm disappointed, but can't really blame Ford for this Johnson era tariff that's denied us a lot of neat little trucks and vans for decades now. What are you talking about? The Transit Connect has ALWAYS been on the Focus platform. The next gen Transit Connect in North America is staying on the same platform and will most likely get a little longer and have the same powertrains (i.e. some sort of hybrid) as the upcoming Maverick Pickup that is on the same extended wheelbase Focus or C platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 22 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: What are you talking about? The Transit Connect has ALWAYS been on the Focus platform. The next gen Transit Connect in North America is staying on the same platform and will most likely get a little longer and have the same powertrains (i.e. some sort of hybrid) as the upcoming Maverick Pickup that is on the same extended wheelbase Focus or C platform. It does have some upgrades over the standard C2 platform for load carrying (ladder frame?) but it is the same basic platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 The publicized plan was for VW to develop and probably build a version of their Caddy minivan on the MQB platform to be sold as the 3rd generation Transit Connect, while Ford will develop and probably build a version of the big Transit and Ranger to be VW's next generation Crafter van and Amorak pickup. Then the collaboration was expanded with VW sharing their MEB electric car platform with Ford. Now we're hearing that Ford will keep building their C2 platform Transit Connect In Mexico for at least the North American market, and who knows which minivan the rest of the world will get and from where. It could be argued that Ford has a plan and isn't showing their "hand" on purpose, but I'm beginning to suspect that Ford has no real plan and they're merely responding to the crisis du jour. As evidence thereof, Ford is getting pushback from the union at the Spanish plant that currently builds the Transit Connect over the loss of that product, while the UAW is confronting Ford over the absence of the new products that they were promised at Avon Lake plant. Meanwhile, Ford has promised 5 new products to a Canadian plant... Perhaps Ford has promised more new products than they can deliver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 The current Transit Connect is C1. The one coming to Mexico is C2 and is an offshoot of the Maverick, sharing the same program code. Also Ford is not building replacement for VW Crafter van which is only 2 years old. Ford is going to supply VW with next gen Transporter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 5 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: The publicized plan was for VW to develop and probably build a version of their Caddy minivan on the MQB platform to be sold as the 3rd generation Transit Connect, while Ford will develop and probably build a version of the big Transit and Ranger to be VW's next generation Crafter van and Amorak pickup. Then the collaboration was expanded with VW sharing their MEB electric car platform with Ford. Now we're hearing that Ford will keep building their C2 platform Transit Connect In Mexico for at least the North American market, and who knows which minivan the rest of the world will get and from where. It could be argued that Ford has a plan and isn't showing their "hand" on purpose, but I'm beginning to suspect that Ford has no real plan and they're merely responding to the crisis du jour. As evidence thereof, Ford is getting pushback from the union at the Spanish plant that currently builds the Transit Connect over the loss of that product, while the UAW is confronting Ford over the absence of the new products that they were promised at Avon Lake plant. Meanwhile, Ford has promised 5 new products to a Canadian plant... Perhaps Ford has promised more new products than they can deliver? Sounds like US is getting a Maverick-based Transit Connect, and ROW is getting the VW Caddy-based one. I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, bzcat said: The current Transit Connect is C1. The one coming to Mexico is C2 and is an offshoot of the Maverick, sharing the same program code. Also Ford is not building replacement for VW Crafter van which is only 2 years old. Ford is going to supply VW with next gen Transporter. Check again, Ford will supply 1-tonne and 2-tonne vans to VW, so that means Transit and Transit Custom become Crafter and Transporter vans.....not sure about people carriers, VW building ID Buzz at Hannover. I was the main proponent saying that TC at Hermosillo was cancelled (incorrect assumption based on C1 intel) Ford clearly want a return on C2 TC now that VW Caddy will replace it in Europe and ROW. My guess is that Ford also needs to show the government that it's moving away from the chicken tax shell game and C2 also offers the opportunity of hybrid vans that dovetail with Maverick production. Makes me wonder about that cancelled Maverick utility, it would have been a real problem for Escape sales, especially a hybrid..... Edited March 19, 2021 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Ford had me confused too, or else Ford is confused and we had it right! I can't see any point in VW doing vans bigger than the Caddy/TC size as long as Ford is willing to do that for them- VW doesn't have much to offer between the car derived vans and Traton's MAN, Scania, and International trucks so may as well leave those chunks of the market for Ford to build. There's a downside to building two completely different TC/Caddy sized vans for NA and ROW, basically they've lost much of the advantages of collaboration and they're back to building two completely different vehicles... Ford should be capable of building the Caddy in Hermosillio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 17 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Ford had me confused too, or else Ford is confused and we had it right! I can't see any point in VW doing vans bigger than the Caddy/TC size as long as Ford is willing to do that for them- VW doesn't have much to offer between the car derived vans and Traton's MAN, Scania, and International trucks so may as well leave those chunks of the market for Ford to build. There's a downside to building two completely different TC/Caddy sized vans for NA and ROW, basically they've lost much of the advantages of collaboration and they're back to building two completely different vehicles... Ford should be capable of building the Caddy in Hermosillio. Unless they've determined that the same product doesn't work in both markets - i.e. preferring a larger model vs. the European model and offering different wheelbases isn't enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Ford had me confused too, or else Ford is confused and we had it right! I can't see any point in VW doing vans bigger than the Caddy/TC size as long as Ford is willing to do that for them- VW doesn't have much to offer between the car derived vans and Traton's MAN, Scania, and International trucks so may as well leave those chunks of the market for Ford to build. There's a downside to building two completely different TC/Caddy sized vans for NA and ROW, basically they've lost much of the advantages of collaboration and they're back to building two completely different vehicles... Ford should be capable of building the Caddy in Hermosillio. Building VW Caddy in a Ford plant set up for C2 is not an option as the build sequence and supplier networks are different, it's also not part of the supply agreement with VW who retain sole manufacturing rights of their vehicle. As bzcat has mentioned before, the Caddy/TC being offered in ROW is a lower, longer van that's not the best fit for North America where things like taller roofline would be more popular for bulkier deliveries. That and Ford wanting a return on C2 vehicles already in development before the alliance with VW BEVs & caddy was sealed. Setting up an additional C2 vehicle at Hermosillo is preferable to importing Caddy with 25% chicken tax. Edited March 19, 2021 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 Sadly, having to have separate minivans (TC and Caddy) for NA and ROW markets pretty much undoes any savings. Can't blame Ford for that, it's another self inflicted wound from the stupid "chicken tax". As for dimensions, I've checked and the new Caddy and current TC are pretty similar- I like the TC because it's tall enough to haul a motorcycle which most minivans can't handle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Sadly, having to have separate minivans (TC and Caddy) for NA and ROW markets pretty much undoes any savings. Can't blame Ford for that, it's another self inflicted wound from the stupid "chicken tax". As for dimensions, I've checked and the new Caddy and current TC are pretty similar- I like the TC because it's tall enough to haul a motorcycle which most minivans can't handle. C2 TC was a relatively easy progression from C1, mostly an evolution with provision for hybrid, from what I now gather, it was pretty much at design lock-in stage when the agreement with VW was struck to take the Caddy instead, that's why I thought TC (on C1) for Hermosillo was cancelled. Consider this as Ford NA juicing C2 projects into one really full Mexican plant, it makes a lot of sense as does moving the mid sized BEV utilities to Cuautitlan with Mach E, both Mexican plants are now "full". Edited March 20, 2021 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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