Ford Retail Price Increases

[Nor Cal Zilla]

4 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

I archive every price increase announcement which then gets backed up in 3 locations. There are 2022 Super Duty Price Lists at Price Level 255 (Effective 04/01/2022) but there is no corresponding price increase announcement. I've just spent the last 20+ minutes looking at dozens of Ford announcements, etc. and searching at the FMCDealer.com portal to see if I somehow missed it but there are no results. I can get you the prices for PL250, PL255 & PL260 if you need to compare the pricing for a particular model. If so, send me a private message with the model information. 

PM sent.  Thanks!

[Gorthek]

Almost wish I didn't read this thread. I ordered a Titanium Escape PHEV one week after the $1,250 dollar price increase. And they already increased the price from last year by moving things out of the standard trim, and into the premium package.

[ice-capades]

Mid-Year Pricing - Effective June 1, 2022

 

ACTION REQUESTED
• Be aware of these pricing changes, effective June 1st, 2022, on select 2022 and 2023 model vehicles
 

SUMMARY
This letter announces competitive pricing actions on select 2022 and 2023 model vehicles effective June 1st, 2022.

 

EFFECTIVE DATE
Dealer Invoice changes will be effective June 1st,, 2022.
 

PRICE PROTECTION
2022 and 2023 model units invoiced prior to June 1st, 2022 will not be re-invoiced.
 

Automatic price protection will be provided on:
• Firm 2022&2023 model fleet, retail, and demonstrator orders signed and dated on or before May 31, 2022, and received by Ford Motor Company on or before June 4, 2022.
• Fleet CPA or GPC orders will continue to be price protected to the individual customer’s contract agreement or bid date.

 

PRICE LEVELS (effective June 1, 2022)

 

2022 MODEL YEAR
Bronco Sport      PL240
Mustang             PL240
Escape                PL245
Edge                    PL240
Explorer              PL260
Expedition          PL245
Ranger                PL235
F-150                  PL250
Super Duty         PL265
Corsair               PL240
Nautilus             PL245

Navigator          PL240
 

2023 MODEL YEAR
Aviator               PL325

 

RETAIL PRICE INCREASES BY VEHICLE LINE - Effective June 1, 2022
 

FORD

Icons

Bronco Sport

• Increase Base series prices $300 MSRP
• Increase Big Bend series prices $300 MSRP
• Increase Outer Banks series prices $300 MSRP

Mustang

• Increase all series prices $265 MSRP

SUVs
Escape

• Increase all series prices $265 MSRP

Edge

• Increase all series prices $265 MSRP

Explorer

• Increase all series prices $265 MSRP

Expedition

• Increase all series prices $425 MSRP
   

Trucks
Ranger

• Increase all series prices $265 MSRP

F-150

• Increase XL series prices $375 MSRP
• Increase XLT series prices $385 MSRP
• Increase Lariat series prices $385 MSRP
• Increase King Ranch series prices $385 MSRP
• Increase Platinum series prices $385 MSRP
• Increase Limited series prices $385 MSRP
• Increase Tremor series prices $385 MSRP
• Increase Raptor series prices $385 MSRP

Super Duty

• Increase all series prices $550 MSRP

LINCOLN 
Corsair

• Increase Corsair Base series prices $210 MSRP
• Increase Reserve series prices $210 MSRP
• Increase Grand Touring series prices $210 MSRP

Nautilus

• Increase Nautilus Base series prices $530 MSRP
• Increase Reserve series prices $535 MSRP
• Increase Black Label series prices $535 MSRP

Aviator

• Increase Aviator Base series prices $500 MSRP
• Increase Reserve series prices $510 MSRP
• Increase Grand Touring series prices $510 MSRP
• Increase Black Label series prices $535 MSRP

Navigator

• Increase Standard series prices $635 MSRP
• Increase Reserve series prices $640 MSRP
• Increase Black Label series prices $645 MSRP

[CactusGrayAllDay]

My dealer told me that my Bronco Sport order didn't qualify for price protection because proof of price protection did not show up in my certificate from Ford. I'm the original ordering customer and had not made any changes to my order. I just watched episode 35 from Ford Video Guy and he explained that the price protection wont show up on the Smart Vincent, only the incentives will. Also had a helpful image of the retail order price protection policy. Just a warning to others - don't accept the Smart Vincent excuse from the dealer! As others have mentioned in the thread, price protection is an accounting procedure between Ford and the dealer. 

[sajohnson]

Good for you for fighting them CactusGray!

 

What is the certificate you mentioned?

 

I hadn't heard of the Smart Vincent excuse.  Our salesperson just told us (multiple times) that we would be responsible for any MSRP increases from that date (order date) forward.  That did not sound right to me, but while I've purchased 6 new vehicles, I had never faced a situation with rapidly increasing prices.  Obviously we did not sign anything regarding MSRP increases and when we got home I did some reading here and on the Bronco Sport Forum and quickly discovered Ford's "Price Protection".  I immediately sent the salesperson a friendly "Look what I found" email.

 

As it happened, there were no price increases on the BS Badlands between our order a production dates.  The sticker showed the MSRP we agreed to, so we did not need price protection.

 

I do wonder though if they try that with all of their customers who order, and what the dealer would do if the there was an MSRP increase and the customer was unaware of price protection?  My guess is that they would force the customer to pay the new, higher MSRP and then pocket the money from Ford.

 

That's otherwise known as criminal fraud.  I wonder how often it happens?  It's a shame Ford puts up with behavior like that.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, sajohnson said:

Good for you for fighting them CactusGray!

 

I do wonder though if they try that with all of their customers who order, and what the dealer would do if the there was an MSRP increase and the customer was unaware of price protection?  My guess is that they would force the customer to pay the new, higher MSRP and then pocket the money from Ford.

 

That's otherwise known as criminal fraud.  I wonder how often it happens?  It's a shame Ford puts up with behavior like that.

It’s not fraud if you simply agreed to pay MSRP without getting the actual price in writing signed by the dealer.

[sajohnson]

The definition of fraud:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud

 

" DECEIT, TRICKERY
specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"

 

For a salesperson to claim -- multiple times -- that the customer(s) must pay any and all MSRP increases is clearly false, and an attempt to get the customer to pay the increased MSRP so that the salesperson and/or dealership can pocket the Price Protection rebate from Ford.

 

 

[akirby]

32 minutes ago, sajohnson said:

The definition of fraud:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud

 

" DECEIT, TRICKERY
specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"

 

For a salesperson to claim -- multiple times -- that the customer(s) must pay any and all MSRP increases is clearly false, and an attempt to get the customer to pay the increased MSRP so that the salesperson and/or dealership can pocket the Price Protection rebate from Ford.

What Ford charges the dealer is between  them and Ford.  Whatever deal you make with the dealer is between you and the dealer.  
 

If you agreed to a specific price then that’s what you should pay - period.  
 

If you just agreed to pay MSRP then you’re stuck with the MSRP that gets printed on the window sticker.

Edited May 29, 2022 by akirby

[sajohnson]

29 minutes ago, akirby said:

What Ford charges the dealer is between  them and Ford.  Whatever deal you make with the dealer is between you and the dealer.  
 

If you agreed to a specific price then that’s what you should pay - period.  
 

If you just agreed to pay MSRP then you’re stuck with the MSRP that gets printed on the window sticker.

 

We had agreed to a specific price, MSRP at the time, which IIRC was $36,465.  My concern is that although we had agreed to a fixed amount, in writing, the sales person told us several times that if there were any MSRP increases we would have to pay them.  That is clearly false.  This person has over 10 years experience with Ford.

 

The only reason I can think of that the salesperson would lie is that they have a way of pocketing the Price Protection rebate from Ford.  That fits the definition of fraud.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, sajohnson said:

 

We had agreed to a specific price, MSRP at the time, which IIRC was $36,465.  My concern is that although we had agreed to a fixed amount, in writing, the sales person told us several times that if there were any MSRP increases we would have to pay them.  That is clearly false.  This person has over 10 years experience with Ford.

 

The only reason I can think of that the salesperson would lie is that they have a way of pocketing the Price Protection rebate from Ford.  That fits the definition of fraud.

The devil is in the details.  The fact that you said “IIRC” implies you did not get that price in writing.  I know it’s all semantics - either way they should not charge you the difference, but to say it’s fraud isn’t really accurate in most cases.  It may be ignorant or scummy but not fraud.

[sajohnson]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

The devil is in the details.  The fact that you said “IIRC” implies you did not get that price in writing.  I know it’s all semantics - either way they should not charge you the difference, but to say it’s fraud isn’t really accurate in most cases.  It may be ignorant or scummy but not fraud.

 

I should have spelled it out more clearly -- my "IIRC" referred to the *precise* amount, not whether an amount was specified.

 

There was an agreed upon price in writing -- and it was $36,465 (I just checked).

 

To review, the definition of fraud is:  "Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

 

Our salesperson has over a decade of experience in sales with Ford.  "Ignorant" might  apply if they had only been on the job for a few months, during a period with very few mid-year MSRP increases.  However, a salesperson with over 10 years on the job, at a time when MSRP increases are common, cannot claim ignorance.

 

"Scummy" is definitely an accurate adjective, as in, "The scummy salesperson who knew full well that Price Protection applied, tried to use deception to convince the customer that they had to pay any/all MSRP increases -- to enable the salesperson and/or the dealership to steal the difference."

 

That fits the definition of fraud to a 'T'.

 

 

[akirby]

Salespeople rarely understand the ordering process.  They almost never deal with price protection.  That’s the sales manager and some of them are clueless.

 

And you’re wrong about it being Fraud.  At worst it’s simply a breach of contract between you and the dealer.  What Ford charges the dealer is no e of your business,

[sajohnson]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Salespeople rarely understand the ordering process.  They almost never deal with price protection.  That’s the sales manager and some of them are clueless.

 

And you’re wrong about it being Fraud.  At worst it’s simply a breach of contract between you and the dealer.  What Ford charges the dealer is no e of your business,

 

To be clear, the salesperson's false claims that we would be responsible for any MSRP increases did not affect us,  because the MSRP did not change between our order date and production.

 

It would be interesting to know what has happened to buyers who were unaware of price protection and DID have MSRP increases.'  It's highly likely that the dealership pocketed the rebate from Ford -- a rebate that is meant to protect the BUYER (and dealer) from price increases.  Of course I'm glad Ford has price protection, but -- regardless of the industry or product -- it should go without saying that if an item must be ordered, the customer pays the price they were promised -- up front, in writing.  Ford's policy essentially formalizes what everyone understands to be normal, customary business practice -- any price increases apply going forward, to future purchases, not to existing orders.  That should go without saying, whether it's a car; a TV; or a kayak.

 

As for whether our salesperson committed fraud against us, I'd say no -- it was 'attempted fraud', because we were not tricked into paying any MSRP increases.  I imagine other customers have not been so lucky.

 

I'm not an attorney.  As far as I know, you aren't either.  So neither one of us is in a position to determine whether our salesperson's statements constitute attempted fraud -- or, if that same con is successful with other customers, and they are tricked into paying more than they should -- if that meets the legal definition of fraud.  My non-lawyer opinion is that it does, based on this definition from Cornell Law School:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraud

 

"Fraud is both a civil tort and criminal wrong. 

In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent.  For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth.  The speaker must have also intended that the person to whom the statement was made would rely on it.  The hearer must then have reasonably relied on the promise and also been harmed because of that reliance."

 

The only way to know with certainty if a salesperson tricking buyers into paying any & all MSRP increases -- and then keeping the rebate from Ford -- is fraud, is if civil and/or criminal charges are filed and a judge or jury makes a determination of guilt or innocence.  

 

 

 

 

[Rangers09]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:28 PM, sajohnson said:

Good for you for fighting them CactusGray!

 

What is the certificate you mentioned?

 

I hadn't heard of the Smart Vincent excuse.  Our salesperson just told us (multiple times) that we would be responsible for any MSRP increases from that date (order date) forward.  That did not sound right to me, but while I've purchased 6 new vehicles, I had never faced a situation with rapidly increasing prices.  Obviously we did not sign anything regarding MSRP increases and when we got home I did some reading here and on the Bronco Sport Forum and quickly discovered Ford's "Price Protection".  I immediately sent the salesperson a friendly "Look what I found" email.

 

As it happened, there were no price increases on the BS Badlands between our order a production dates.  The sticker showed the MSRP we agreed to, so we did not need price protection.

 

I do wonder though if they try that with all of their customers who order, and what the dealer would do if the there was an MSRP increase and the customer was unaware of price protection?  My guess is that they would force the customer to pay the new, higher MSRP and then pocket the money from Ford.

 

That's otherwise known as criminal fraud.  I wonder how often it happens?  It's a shame Ford puts up with behavior like that.

 

As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay. 

 

If you only agreed MSRP, did it at least have a qualifier in the signed contract that stated it was the MSRP on a specific date. If not, you are open to being charge MSRP at time of pick, by any number of dealers. If you didn't cover your bases and only agreed an open-ended MSRP, no way it is criminal fraud, if the dealer charges you the delivery MSRP - that is what you agreed to. Price negotiations MUST be concluded before signing any contract.

 

Buyer beware. 

 

At time of order, I agreed the exact number that I would pay the dealership, which included all taxes and fees. That is the same number I paid, 8+ months later, after spending < 10 mins in the Business Office. Zero discussion required on price protection, as my price negotiations pre-contract eliminated this potential. Nowhere did it state MSRP, only real numbers were included in the contract.

[j2sys]

1 hour ago, sajohnson said:

The only way to know with certainty if a salesperson tricking buyers into paying any & all MSRP increases -- and then keeping the rebate from Ford -- is fraud, is if civil and/or criminal charges are filed and a judge or jury makes a determination of guilt or innocence.  

 

MSRP is a suggestion.

Price protection is for the dealer, not the end customer.

Pricing is generally negotiable, though in the current market, many dealers insist on full MSRP.

If you have in writing from the dealer that they will sell you the ordered vehicle for a certain price (be it the MSRP quoted at time of order to literally anything else), and they refuse to honor it, you might have a claim for breach of contract or something like that.

Not fraud.

And the salesperson doesn't control pricing.  As noted, they don't always know all the rules.

Price protection is for the dealer, with the expectation that you've agreed on a price, so the dealer pays the original quoted invoice price and is able to honor any agreement they made with you.  But if you don't have a firm commitment, and the price went up by the time the invoice/window sticker was generated, then you still need to agree on price, and the dealer may insist on the higher MSRP, since they could easily sell it to the next customer for the same.
Trouble is when customers such as yourself assume that the original quoted MSRP will be the price you pay without getting it in writing or trying to negotiate.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, sajohnson said:

 

To be clear, the salesperson's false claims that we would be responsible for any MSRP increases did not affect us,  because the MSRP did not change between our order date and production.

 

It would be interesting to know what has happened to buyers who were unaware of price protection and DID have MSRP increases.'  It's highly likely that the dealership pocketed the rebate from Ford -- a rebate that is meant to protect the BUYER (and dealer) from price increases.  Of course I'm glad Ford has price protection, but -- regardless of the industry or product -- it should go without saying that if an item must be ordered, the customer pays the price they were promised -- up front, in writing.  Ford's policy essentially formalizes what everyone understands to be normal, customary business practice -- any price increases apply going forward, to future purchases, not to existing orders.  That should go without saying, whether it's a car; a TV; or a kayak.

 

As for whether our salesperson committed fraud against us, I'd say no -- it was 'attempted fraud', because we were not tricked into paying any MSRP increases.  I imagine other customers have not been so lucky.

 

I'm not an attorney.  As far as I know, you aren't either.  So neither one of us is in a position to determine whether our salesperson's statements constitute attempted fraud -- or, if that same con is successful with other customers, and they are tricked into paying more than they should -- if that meets the legal definition of fraud.  My non-lawyer opinion is that it does, based on this definition from Cornell Law School:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraud

 

"Fraud is both a civil tort and criminal wrong. 

In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent.  For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth.  The speaker must have also intended that the person to whom the statement was made would rely on it.  The hearer must then have reasonably relied on the promise and also been harmed because of that reliance."

 

The only way to know with certainty if a salesperson tricking buyers into paying any & all MSRP increases -- and then keeping the rebate from Ford -- is fraud, is if civil and/or criminal charges are filed and a judge or jury makes a determination of guilt or innocence.  

 

 

 

 

 

3 of us have tried to explain this to you but you don’t want to hear anything that differs from your opinion, so let’s just agree to disagree on this one.

[sajohnson]

18 minutes ago, j2sys said:

 

MSRP is a suggestion.

Price protection is for the dealer, not the end customer.

Pricing is generally negotiable, though in the current market, many dealers insist on full MSRP.

If you have in writing from the dealer that they will sell you the ordered vehicle for a certain price (be it the MSRP quoted at time of order to literally anything else), and they refuse to honor it, you might have a claim for breach of contract or something like that.

Not fraud.

And the salesperson doesn't control pricing.  As noted, they don't always know all the rules.

Price protection is for the dealer, with the expectation that you've agreed on a price, so the dealer pays the original quoted invoice price and is able to honor any agreement they made with you.  But if you don't have a firm commitment, and the price went up by the time the invoice/window sticker was generated, then you still need to agree on price, and the dealer may insist on the higher MSRP, since they could easily sell it to the next customer for the same.
Trouble is when customers such as yourself assume that the original quoted MSRP will be the price you pay without getting it in writing or trying to negotiate.

Quote:

"Trouble is when customers such as yourself assume that the original quoted MSRP will be the price you pay without getting it in writing or trying to negotiate."

 

"Such as yourself?"  Did you read my posts above?  This did not affect us personally.  My wife and I got a firm price in writing -- $36,465, which was MSRP.

 

To be clear, I am talking about firm orders, with a fixed price in writing -- although taking advantage of a buyer because they are naïve and agree to just "MSRP" without a number beside it is sleazy.

 

The bottom line is, people should not lie cheat and steal.  A salesperson with a decade of experience should be familiar with Ford's Automatic Price Protection -- especially the way the market has been for the last couple years.

 

Price Protection is for the benefit of both the dealer and the customer.  Ford is doing the right thing and respecting that "a deal is a deal" -- that when a buyer and dealer agree to a price, based on Ford's pricing at the time, Ford will respect that deal and any MSRP increase will only apply to future orders.  That's as it should be, but it is decent of Ford to put it in writing.

 

People can justify almost anything if they try hard enough, but trying to trick customers into paying MSRP increases, when Ford is covering them -- with the expectation that the customer will pay the agreed upon price -- is unethical, to put it mildly.  It is taking advantage of a customer because they are not familiar with all of Ford's programs, and (at a minimum) it violates the spirit of the program.

 

Put another way, how would Ford feel about it?

[j2sys]

25 minutes ago, sajohnson said:

Quote:

"Trouble is when customers such as yourself assume that the original quoted MSRP will be the price you pay without getting it in writing or trying to negotiate."

 

"Such as yourself?"  Did you read my posts above?  This did not affect us personally.  My wife and I got a firm price in writing -- $36,465, which was MSRP.

 

Then don't talk like you didn't.  Either you agreed on a price and have a contract dispute, or you still need to negotiate, which has nothing to do with fraud.

 

If you have a firm price in writing, then the dealer already agreed to the transaction at a set price, and generally would be frowned upon by a court if they refused to sell for that price because their price went up, and even more so if their price did not go up (via price protection).

 

You can justify this to yourself however you want, but you made up the idea of this being "fraud".

 

25 minutes ago, sajohnson said:

Put another way, how would Ford feel about it?

 

Ford would have expected you to have negotiated a price, which is what I said.  Did you read what I said, or are you too busy whining about some fictitious fraud?  Price protection is offered with the presumption that you agreed on a price based on the original invoice/MSRP from time of order.

 

But all if this is hearsay from you based on a salesperson, not someone who is responsible for setting pricing at the dealer.  A customer who agreed to a set price in writing would expect to bring that price in to purchase the vehicle, to confirm the price they are paying on such a large transaction is what they expected.

Edited May 30, 2022 by j2sys

[sajohnson]

46 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:

 

As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay. 

 

If you only agreed MSRP, did it at least have a qualifier in the signed contract that stated it was the MSRP on a specific date. If not, you are open to being charge MSRP at time of pick, by any number of dealers. If you didn't cover your bases and only agreed an open-ended MSRP, no way it is criminal fraud, if the dealer charges you the delivery MSRP - that is what you agreed to. Price negotiations MUST be concluded before signing any contract.

 

Buyer beware. 

 

At time of order, I agreed the exact number that I would pay the dealership, which included all taxes and fees. That is the same number I paid, 8+ months later, after spending < 10 mins in the Business Office. Zero discussion required on price protection, as my price negotiations pre-contract eliminated this potential. Nowhere did it state MSRP, only real numbers were included in the contract.

Quote:

"As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay."

 

Agreed.  We did that, $36,465 in writing, and there were no applicable MSRP increases anyway.  So this isn't about our bottom line  deal.  It all worked out -- just like your deal, with one exception.  They insisted that the $1,000 order credit did not apply!  I had to find it on Ford's website -- then they did not even look at the page I found!  It was like, "Oh well, gig's up..."  Then, inexplicably, they claimed the $1,000 credit only applied to the Bronco Sport Badlands -- which is what we bought, but the credit applied to all BS trim levels at time of order and delivery.  Not sure what they were trying to pull there.

 

What I am focusing on is the fact that our salesperson told us -- several times -- that we would have to pay any MSRP increases.  That was clearly false.  Why would  they say that?  The only reason I can think of is to get us to pay any potential MSRP increase and pocket the difference.

 

Again, that did not happen in our case (it was just attempted), but presumably we aren't the only customers that have been lied to.  Chances are almost all buyers get the same bs -- and some of them get scammed -- with or without a firm price.  Some people are trusting and/or gullible.  That does not mean they should be taken advantage of, treated like prey.

 

 

 

[j2sys]

21 minutes ago, sajohnson said:

Quote:

"As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay."

 

Agreed.  We did that, $36,465 in writing, and there were no applicable MSRP increases anyway.  So this isn't about our bottom line  deal.  It all worked out -- just like your deal, with one exception.  They insisted that the $1,000 order credit did not apply!  I had to find it on Ford's website -- then they did not even look at the page I found!  It was like, "Oh well, gig's up..."  Then, inexplicably, they claimed the $1,000 credit only applied to the Bronco Sport Badlands -- which is what we bought, but the credit applied to all BS trim levels at time of order and delivery.  Not sure what they were trying to pull there.

 

What I am focusing on is the fact that our salesperson told us -- several times -- that we would have to pay any MSRP increases.  That was clearly false.  Why would  they say that?  The only reason I can think of is to get us to pay any potential MSRP increase and pocket the difference.

 

Again, that did not happen in our case (it was just attempted), but presumably we aren't the only customers that have been lied to.  Chances are almost all buyers get the same bs -- and some of them get scammed -- with or without a firm price.  Some people are trusting and/or gullible.  That does not mean they should be taken advantage of, treated like prey.

 

 

 

 

Okay so they're clueless about the incentives, all they had to do was to pull it up in Smart VINCENT which should show the relevant incentive attached to you/the vehicle.  Salespeople in general know less about the product than well-informed customers, one shouldn't expect this to be much better when it comes to pricing/incentives, even though you would think they would.  You talk like you think they were trying to con you out of the $1k BTO incentive, which they could only do if you signed the form from Ford to disburse the funds to the dealer, and still your agreed upon price (e.g. MSRP).

 

What did the sales manager/general manager say when you informed them that this salesperson was saying this?  Did you point out to them that the dealer had committed to a price in writing, thus it didn't matter what MSRP was printed on the window sticker?

 

Again, the salesperson doesn't decide how much to sell the vehicle for.

 

Clearly you had a bad experience with your dealer, but rather than admit that, you just want to complain about the entire process, about Ford as a whole.

Edited May 30, 2022 by j2sys

[ice-capades]

7 hours ago, sajohnson said:

Quote:

"As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay."

 

Agreed.  We did that, $36,465 in writing, and there were no applicable MSRP increases anyway.  So this isn't about our bottom line  deal.  It all worked out -- just like your deal, with one exception.  They insisted that the $1,000 order credit did not apply!  I had to find it on Ford's website -- then they did not even look at the page I found!  It was like, "Oh well, gig's up..."  Then, inexplicably, they claimed the $1,000 credit only applied to the Bronco Sport Badlands -- which is what we bought, but the credit applied to all BS trim levels at time of order and delivery.  Not sure what they were trying to pull there.

 

What I am focusing on is the fact that our salesperson told us -- several times -- that we would have to pay any MSRP increases.  That was clearly false.  Why would  they say that?  The only reason I can think of is to get us to pay any potential MSRP increase and pocket the difference.

 

Again, that did not happen in our case (it was just attempted), but presumably we aren't the only customers that have been lied to.  Chances are almost all buyers get the same bs -- and some of them get scammed -- with or without a firm price.  Some people are trusting and/or gullible.  That does not mean they should be taken advantage of, treated like prey.

 

I'm getting more and more annoyed at my time being wasted reading your never-ending stream of posts arguing about a subject that you admit wasn't applicable to your transaction. It's gone on long enough that it was suggested that you just "agree to disagree" with opposing points of view, etc. but you still keep posting! 

 

STOP IT!

[akirby]

Let’s be even more clear.  Drop this ridiculous debate or we’ll drop it for you.

[Rangers09]

16 hours ago, sajohnson said:

Quote:

"As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay."

 

Agreed.  We did that, $36,465 in writing, and there were no applicable MSRP increases anyway.  So this isn't about our bottom line  deal.  It all worked out -- just like your deal, with one exception.  They insisted that the $1,000 order credit did not apply!  I had to find it on Ford's website -- then they did not even look at the page I found!  It was like, "Oh well, gig's up..."  Then, inexplicably, they claimed the $1,000 credit only applied to the Bronco Sport Badlands -- which is what we bought, but the credit applied to all BS trim levels at time of order and delivery.  Not sure what they were trying to pull there.

 

What I am focusing on is the fact that our salesperson told us -- several times -- that we would have to pay any MSRP increases.  That was clearly false.  Why would  they say that?  The only reason I can think of is to get us to pay any potential MSRP increase and pocket the difference.

 

Again, that did not happen in our case (it was just attempted), but presumably we aren't the only customers that have been lied to.  Chances are almost all buyers get the same bs -- and some of them get scammed -- with or without a firm price.  Some people are trusting and/or gullible.  That does not mean they should be taken advantage of, treated like prey.

 

 

As others have said, the average salesman doesn't know the business, hence the reason I deal directly with the Sales Manager I have known for 15+ yrs. The salesman is only required for getting the truck filled and ensuring everything is in order prior to delivery. The salesman assigned by the Sales Mgr also sent me weekly updates.

[blwnsmoke]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:37 PM, sajohnson said:

 

To be clear, the salesperson's false claims that we would be responsible for any MSRP increases did not affect us,  because the MSRP did not change between our order date and production.

 

It would be interesting to know what has happened to buyers who were unaware of price protection and DID have MSRP increases.'  It's highly likely that the dealership pocketed the rebate from Ford -- a rebate that is meant to protect the BUYER (and dealer) from price increases.  Of course I'm glad Ford has price protection, but -- regardless of the industry or product -- it should go without saying that if an item must be ordered, the customer pays the price they were promised -- up front, in writing.  Ford's policy essentially formalizes what everyone understands to be normal, customary business practice -- any price increases apply going forward, to future purchases, not to existing orders.  That should go without saying, whether it's a car; a TV; or a kayak.

 

As for whether our salesperson committed fraud against us, I'd say no -- it was 'attempted fraud', because we were not tricked into paying any MSRP increases.  I imagine other customers have not been so lucky.

 

I'm not an attorney.  As far as I know, you aren't either.  So neither one of us is in a position to determine whether our salesperson's statements constitute attempted fraud -- or, if that same con is successful with other customers, and they are tricked into paying more than they should -- if that meets the legal definition of fraud.  My non-lawyer opinion is that it does, based on this definition from Cornell Law School:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraud

 

"Fraud is both a civil tort and criminal wrong. 

In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent.  For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth.  The speaker must have also intended that the person to whom the statement was made would rely on it.  The hearer must then have reasonably relied on the promise and also been harmed because of that reliance."

 

The only way to know with certainty if a salesperson tricking buyers into paying any & all MSRP increases -- and then keeping the rebate from Ford -- is fraud, is if civil and/or criminal charges are filed and a judge or jury makes a determination of guilt or innocence.  

 

 

 

Really have no clue what you are talking about regarding the dealer pocketing the price protection rebate.  There is no such thing as a PP rebate.  This is really simple.  If you want price protection, the Finance manager (or is it Sales Manager) needs to submit the price protection.  This is not automatic and a salesperson regardless of 1 year or 10 year experience doesn't handle that.

 

Example, my sister in law ordered a 2022 Explorer back in February.  They advised her the price could change over the 2 month period and would be responsible for that (rebates change or price increase).  I advised her of the price protection Ford offers and that she has two options.  Pay the price agreed upon at day of order (price of vehicle less available rebates at that time) or she can pay the price at time of delivery (price increase possibly less current rebates at time of delivery).  When contacting the dealership with my info, they got back to her and said they would lock her price protection in and she was in fact covered.

 

There is no fraud, there is no PP rebate.

 

PS - Sorry Ice-capades for posting in a sticky that was really meant for just pricing updates.  Couldn't stand reading that any more.

 

 

Quote

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by blwnsmoke

[ice-capades]

On 5/31/2022 at 9:22 AM, blwnsmoke said:

 

Really have no clue what you are talking about regarding the dealer pocketing the price protection rebate.  There is no such thing as a PP rebate.  This is really simple.  If you want price protection, the Finance manager (or is it Sales Manager) needs to submit the price protection.  This is not automatic and a salesperson regardless of 1 year or 10 year experience doesn't handle that.

 

Example, my sister in law ordered a 2022 Explorer back in February.  They advised her the price could change over the 2 month period and would be responsible for that (rebates change or price increase).  I advised her of the price protection Ford offers and that she has two options.  Pay the price agreed upon at day of order (price of vehicle less available rebates at that time) or she can pay the price at time of delivery (price increase possibly less current rebates at time of delivery).  When contacting the dealership with my info, they got back to her and said they would lock her price protection in and she was in fact covered.

 

There is no fraud, there is no PP rebate.

 

PS - Sorry Ice-capades for posting in a sticky that was really meant for just pricing updates.  Couldn't stand reading that any more.

 

No problem!