GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 3 hours ago, ice-capades said: Let's see... Dealer finds the vehicle equipped with the options you require, can arrange a trade with another Dealer 150 miles away, gives you what you consider a decent price and you're still not satisfied until you can get a "slightly" better deal elsewhere. The Dealer spent time and effort finding the vehicle, arranged with the stocking Dealer to do a trade, prepared to send drivers or a truck to go get the vehicle, etc. yet you're still shopping! The Dealer did what you asked and it's still not good enough! This is why I'd rather Ford just let me do a more expansive search and not have to bother the dealer- The poor salesperson had to do a bunch of work when I was just trying to check what's available and asking prices to get an idea of the market. The real blame goes to a broken system of retail vehicle distribution that pushes customers and dealers into human contact, like it or not, and it's inefficient as hell. A good comparison is auto insurance where the online insurers are slowly eroding the market share of the local agents because consumers can buy similar coverage for less because online insurers like Geico don't have the human overhead of State Farm, who lost the last of my business because I can't add more coverage without going through an agent who isn't making much money on the deal anyway. So don't blame me, I'm just a hapless customer and small shareholder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: This is why I'd rather Ford just let me do a more expansive search and not have to bother the dealer- The poor salesperson had to do a bunch of work when I was just trying to check what's available and asking prices to get an idea of the market. The real blame goes to a broken system of retail vehicle distribution that pushes customers and dealers into human contact, like it or not, and it's inefficient as hell. A good comparison is auto insurance where the online insurers are slowly eroding the market share of the local agents because consumers can buy similar coverage for less because online insurers like Geico don't have the human overhead of State Farm, who lost the last of my business because I can't add more coverage without going through an agent who isn't making much money on the deal anyway. So don't blame me, I'm just a hapless customer and small shareholder. Sorry but you lost all credibility with me. The retail distribution system that you claim is broken and forces human contact is far from the truth with the major changes that have been made in the past year due to the Covid-19 pandemic. Dealers across the county have implemented greatly expanded online sales processes to both assist and protect customers and employees alike. And many dealerships will provide contactless services in addition to delivering the vehicle to your desired location. You were dissatisfied with the online search resources but then used a Dealer to do all the work, etc. and still want a better deal. I've lost track of how many times over the years I've seen dealership staff spend hours doing everything possible to satisfy a customer, only to have the customer buy from another Dealer miles away because they were going to save $50. And it's not uncommon to find that the other dealership's vehicle doesn't include features that that the customer insisted were a requirement. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, akirby said: First, it’s illegal for Ford to dictate dealer pricing although they can pressure dealers on some vehicles like Mach-E and Bronco by withholding allocations but even that is limited. Franchise laws rule. Second, you can’t blame a dealer who just went from 200 sales per month to 30 from trying to make maximum profit on those 30. It’s a free market and a new vehicle is not a necessity like food or gas or electricity. That system already exists - it’s called incentive protection. First I'm aware that the manufacturer can't legally dictate price, but they have a lot of other tools to motivate good dealer behavior. Second, Short term opportunistic pricing sends the message to consumers that prices are going up and they may as well hold on to their $$$. As for "incentive protection", I'm aware that Ford offers that in fleet pricing, but do they offer that with retail customer orders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 On 5/12/2021 at 8:13 AM, jasonj80 said: Dealers can also hide vehicles from the consumer search function, where they will show in the dealers search options. Any ideas why a dealer would do this? If I'm willing to put in the keyboard time to find a specific build combination, why hide what you have in stock? Do they really think that customers today are going to drive from dealer to dealer to see what they actually have? HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: First I'm aware that the manufacturer can't legally dictate price, but they have a lot of other tools to motivate good dealer behavior. Second, Short term opportunistic pricing sends the message to consumers that prices are going up and they may as well hold on to their $$$. As for "incentive protection", I'm aware that Ford offers that in fleet pricing, but do they offer that with retail customer orders? Ford has programs in place that reward dealerships that not only meet but exceed Ford's standards and provide exceptional customer satisfaction. Dealerships compete to achieve Ford's recognition and it's an ongoing process as each year Ford raises the bar with even higher goals for customer satisfaction. Ford not only provides incentive protection for retail sales but also offers customers a financial incentive if they order a vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 23 minutes ago, ice-capades said: Sorry but you lost all credibility with me. The retail distribution system that you claim is broken and forces human contact is far from the truth with the major changes that have been made in the past year due to the Covid-19 pandemic. Dealers across the county have implemented greatly expanded online sales processes to both assist and protect customers and employees alike. And many dealerships will provide contactless services in addition to delivering the vehicle to your desired location. You were dissatisfied with the online search resources but then used a Dealer to do all the work, etc. and still want a better deal. I've lost track of how many times over the years I've seen dealership staff spend hours doing everything possible to satisfy a customer, only to have the customer buy from another Dealer miles away because they were going to save $50. And it's not uncommon to find that the other dealership's vehicle doesn't include features that that the customer insisted were a requirement. Ice-capades, no point in our beating each other up over this, you're obviously a dedicated and well qualified salesperson who more than earns their commissions. But a customer shouldn't have to trouble the dealership staff just to see what's in stock and check prices. That's the direction retailing is going- I just bought a tool box from Costco online and it looks like the only in person contact in the transaction will be with the truck driver who delivers it. Same with investments- I can go to one of my online brokers and access huge amounts of research and if I want to, spend the price of a new Ford GT buying a couple shares of Berkshire Hathaway A. More typically yesterday when the market was down I bought shares in about a dozen different companies- If I had to go through a broker those trades wouldn't have happened. So why does buying a new vehicle have to involve extended in person negations and in some case outright intimidation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, ice-capades said: Ford has programs in place that reward dealerships that not only meet but exceed Ford's standards and provide exceptional customer satisfaction. Dealerships compete to achieve Ford's recognition and it's an ongoing process as each year Ford raises the bar with even higher goals for customer satisfaction. Ford not only provides incentive protection for retail sales but also offers customers a financial incentive if they order a vehicle. I'm aware of the customer satisfaction incentives, seems like a lot of dealers ignore them. As for the incentives on new vehicles, IIRC here in Minnesota there's $1000 incentive on new Transit Connects, plus $750 additional if the vehicle has been in dealer stock for over 60 days. If I order a Transit Connect the incentive is only $500. I'm eligible for X Plan pricing, but that works out to about invoice price and some dealers will beat that by a bit anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 52 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: I'm aware of the customer satisfaction incentives, seems like a lot of dealers ignore them. As for the incentives on new vehicles, IIRC here in Minnesota there's $1000 incentive on new Transit Connects, plus $750 additional if the vehicle has been in dealer stock for over 60 days. If I order a Transit Connect the incentive is only $500. I'm eligible for X Plan pricing, but that works out to about invoice price and some dealers will beat that by a bit anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I wasn't referring to the retail customer rebates. Ford recently started offering customers an additional incentive, $500 I believe, if they placed a factory order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Ice-capades, no point in our beating each other up over this, you're obviously a dedicated and well qualified salesperson who more than earns their commissions. But a customer shouldn't have to trouble the dealership staff just to see what's in stock and check prices. That's the direction retailing is going- I just bought a tool box from Costco online and it looks like the only in person contact in the transaction will be with the truck driver who delivers it. Same with investments- I can go to one of my online brokers and access huge amounts of research and if I want to, spend the price of a new Ford GT buying a couple shares of Berkshire Hathaway A. More typically yesterday when the market was down I bought shares in about a dozen different companies- If I had to go through a broker those trades wouldn't have happened. So why does buying a new vehicle have to involve extended in person negations and in some case outright intimidation? Agreed... we'll just have to politely agree to disagree! Just to clarify my background... I'm not a sales representative. My first career was 15 years in the entertainment business as follows... Ice Capades (Performer, Assistant Audio Supervisor/Sound Design Consultant, Assistant to the Principal Skating Coach, Assistant to the Transportation Supervisor), IATSE - International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees (Business Agent), SMPTE - Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers (Associate), Dolby Laboratories (Certified Installer - Motion Picture Theatre Sound Systems), Backstage Associates - Creative Production & Counsel for Theatrical Productions (President) I left the entertainment business only because my wife at the time wouldn't consider relocating to Los Angeles when I was offered a position as a motion picture sound mixer by the Business Agent for the IATSE Sound Technicians Local. Not too many years later I was involved in a number of projects in Las Vegas. My earlier degree was in advertising and public relations including agency experience which qualified me for the work I did later for Bob Thomas' diversified companies... Bob Thomas Ford, Northampton Ford, Pawling Ford, Portsmouth Hyundai, Sanford Farms Arabians, Sanford Farms Aviation, York Investment Corporation, Trinity Land Trust, Legally Harrington, TOP Associates Advertising (Advertising Manager) I worked in the sales department for only 7 months, prior to becoming the Merchandising Manager for a year, and then becoming the advertising manager for the in-house corporate agency representing all of Bob Thomas' companies. For nearly 35 years I managed the new vehicle inventory and ordered all the Stock, Retail & Fleet vehicles for Bob Thomas Ford. We will now return to our regularly scheduled programming! 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, ice-capades said: We will now return to our regularly scheduled programming! And here I thought I remember reading that you were leaving the Dealership group a few months ago! Hahaha, HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 41 minutes ago, ice-capades said: I wasn't referring to the retail customer rebates. Ford recently started offering customers an additional incentive, $500 I believe, if they placed a factory order. So if I ordered a vehicle now, besides the $500 incentive for ordering, would I still receive any rebates like the current $1000 if that rebate still exists when the vehicle is delivered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said: And here I thought I remember reading that you were leaving the Dealership group a few months ago! Hahaha, HRG I did actually leave officially last September but still run inventory and sales reports for the dealership along with doing some marketing projects. As such, I still have full access to the FMCDealer.com portal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: So if I ordered a vehicle now, besides the $500 incentive for ordering, would I still receive any rebates like the current $1000 if that rebate still exists when the vehicle is delivered? Yes and if the incentives are larger when you take delivery, you'd get the larger Ford rebates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said: I'm aware of the customer satisfaction incentives, seems like a lot of dealers ignore them. As for the incentives on new vehicles, IIRC here in Minnesota there's $1000 incentive on new Transit Connects, plus $750 additional if the vehicle has been in dealer stock for over 60 days. If I order a Transit Connect the incentive is only $500. I'm eligible for X Plan pricing, but that works out to about invoice price and some dealers will beat that by a bit anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Many dealers charge a dealer/document fee of $500-$700, but that is only $50 if you go X plan. You also save another 10% or so on options. So you do save some money. I saved an additional $1,000 going Xplan on new Escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, ice-capades said: Agreed... we'll just have to politely agree to disagree! Just to clarify my background... I'm not a sales representative. My first career was 15 years in the entertainment business as follows... Ice Capades (Performer, Assistant Audio Supervisor/Sound Design Consultant, Assistant to the Principal Skating Coach, Assistant to the Transportation Supervisor), IATSE - International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees (Business Agent), SMPTE - Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers (Associate), Dolby Laboratories (Certified Installer - Motion Picture Theatre Sound Systems), Backstage Associates - Creative Production & Counsel for Theatrical Productions (President) I left the entertainment business only because my wife at the time wouldn't consider relocating to Los Angeles when I was offered a position as a motion picture sound mixer by the Business Agent for the IATSE Sound Technicians Local. Not too many years later I was involved in a number of projects in Las Vegas. My earlier degree was in advertising and public relations including agency experience which qualified me for the work I did later for Bob Thomas' diversified companies... Bob Thomas Ford, Northampton Ford, Pawling Ford, Portsmouth Hyundai, Sanford Farms Arabians, Sanford Farms Aviation, York Investment Corporation, Trinity Land Trust, Legally Harrington, TOP Associates Advertising (Advertising Manager) I worked in the sales department for only 7 months, prior to becoming the Merchandising Manager for a year, and then becoming the advertising manager for the in-house corporate agency representing all of Bob Thomas' companies. For nearly 35 years I managed the new vehicle inventory and ordered all the Stock, Retail & Fleet vehicles for Bob Thomas Ford. We will now return to our regularly scheduled programming! Well you'd certainly be a heck of a salesman! I'm a 70 year old retiree living in a tiny town in southwest Minnesota. Worked for Chevy and Mercury dealerships a half century ago, then went back to college and got a bachelor's degree which I never used for work because I got a summer job driving truck that turned into a better paying career in driving and logistics. My depression era parents taught me how to manage my money well, so I was able to rise from the working to middle class. Even though my home and cars are paid for, I just can't help myself and I'm always scouting out a good deal... Took me two years to buy a tractor while the Deere dealers came down to my price. Grew up in a Ford family though grandpa preferred AMC, so my first car was a hand me down '52 Ford. I rebelled and got a good deal on a '61 Corvair while I worked at the Chevy dealer but came back to Ford with a '61 Econoline and '66 Cortina at bargain prices that had been salvaged by the mechanics at the Mercury dealer. Then I became disloyal and bought a series of VW diesels 2 of which still run, interupted by a '98 Ranger that I ordered new that's been a great workhorse. I first saw the Transit Connect at the Louisville truck show in '09 or '10 and was very impressed, even more so by the 2nd generation which comes highly recommended by some of my fellow motorcycle collectors for it's versatility and interior height. Started looking at Transit Connects in 2016 when VW offered an irresistible buyback offer on my '13 TDI and damn near bought one before VW got an emissions fix approved and I managed to snare a new "15 TDI in 2017. The Transit Connect is still on my shopping list, but as my '15 TDI still has a year of powertrain warranty left and the '03 TDI sits in the driveway as a spare, I don't need a new car just right now... But if I can get a good deal I'll be pleased to order one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: Many dealers charge a dealer/document fee of $500-$700, but that is only $50 if you go X plan. You also save another 10% or so on options. So you do save some money. I saved an additional $1,000 going Xplan on new Escape. Max doc fee is now $100 on x plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 28 minutes ago, ice-capades said: Yes and if the incentives are larger when you take delivery, you'd get the larger Ford rebates. Thanks, given that the $1000 retail rebate never seems to go away, sounds like I won't get any better deal buying out of stock now and may as well order and get exactly what I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 2 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said: Any ideas why a dealer would do this? If I'm willing to put in the keyboard time to find a specific build combination, why hide what you have in stock? Do they really think that customers today are going to drive from dealer to dealer to see what they actually have? HRG so they don't get inundated with dealer trade calls...and right now NO ONE is trading, at least here is So Cal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, akirby said: Max doc fee is now $100 on x plan. "Doc Fees" haven't gotten crazy here in Minnesota yet, but in places like Florida they're pushing $1000 so that can make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Surprisingly, the sorta friendly local Ford dealer came up with a halfway decent offer on the XLT Transit Connect wagon with tow package I want, even though they'd have to trade for it with a dealer 150 miles away. None the less, I found a slightly better deal, so much for letting the sorta friendly local Ford dealer search for you. And after yesterdays search on ford.com I looked up my 10 finds today on the dealer's sites and noticed a lot of discrepancies- Hard to believe Transit Connects are moving that fast, unlikely someone is borrowing off of phantom cars when there's so few cars in stock, and most likely just slow updating of the data. But does make me wonder if we're seeing the same sort of panic buying that has overwhelmed gas stations after the latest pipeline shutdown? Few of us NEED a new vehicle but a lot of us want one, and when F150s are thin on the lot and in the press a lot of people think they have to buy one quick and get crazy. Selling vehicles over markup just ads to the panic and Ford and the other manufacturers should come down hard on any dealer who tries it. While they're at it remind the public that they'll still be building vehicles for another century at least, they may just have to wait a bit unless they're an essential service. Set up an incentive system for customer ordered vehicles that gives just as big a rebate for waiting x months for a vehicle to be delivered as the rebate for a vehicle that has sat the same x months on the lot and instead of panic we'll have an orderly line for new vehicles and almost everybody will be happy. 7 hours ago, ice-capades said: Let's see... Dealer finds the vehicle equipped with the options you require, can arrange a trade with another Dealer 150 miles away, gives you what you consider a decent price and you're still not satisfied until you can get a "slightly" better deal elsewhere. The Dealer spent time and effort finding the vehicle, arranged with the stocking Dealer to do a trade, prepared to send drivers or a truck to go get the vehicle, etc. yet you're still shopping! The Dealer did what you asked and it's still not good enough! NIGHTMARE customer...we would have politely said sorry we cant help you. Obviously this individual doesn't value anyone elses time and effort but their own...love it when a consumer thinks they are doing the Dealer of their choice a favor by deciding to buy a vehicle from them...PASS. Sorry to be harsh...but this screams high maintenance let alone a lot of effort for....NOTHING. Edited May 13, 2021 by Deanh 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 37 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: Many dealers charge a dealer/document fee of $500-$700, but that is only $50 if you go X plan. You also save another 10% or so on options. So you do save some money. I saved an additional $1,000 going Xplan on new Escape. When I ordered the Ranger back in summer of '97 I could have gotten X Plan pricing from work, but Boyer Ford in Minneapolis offered a lower price without using X Plan. When I was first looking at a Transit Connect back in 2016 the local dealer had a nicely spec'd one on the lot, but when they priced it out the X Plan didn't save me anything. Usually when the plans help is when the vehicle is in high demand and dealers don't have to discount much, that's increasingly the situation so I'll keep it in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, Deanh said: NIGHTMARE customer...we would have politely said sorry we cant help you. Obviously this individual doesn't value anyone elses time and effort but their own...love it when a consumer thinks they are doing the Dealer of their choice a favor by deciding to buy a vehicle from them...PASS. Sorry to be harsh...but this screams high maintenance let alone a lot of effort for....NOTHING. Yes, I confess to being a salesman's nightmare. But I really don't intend to be, put the information I want online or other readily available format and I''ll be happy to leave the sales staff alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Yes, I confess to being a salesman's nightmare. But I really don't intend to be, put the information I want online or other readily available format and I''ll be happy to leave the sales staff alone. I applaud you for being honest...but realize the world doesn't revolve around you in particular. The profit margin in Transit Connects is trivial...realize that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Making some progress with the local dealer, they're offering invoice price if I order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Making some progress with the local dealer, they're offering invoice price if I order. I hope you're not in a hurry, looks like the Valencia plant is shut down into July,,, https://fordauthority.com/2021/04/ford-announces-production-cuts-at-european-plants-due-to-chip-shortage/ HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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