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5 hours ago, akirby said:


 

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Isn't there a Transit model (Custom?) available in Europe as a Hybrid?

Is there a market for it here in North America?

Does it have a electric only option?

Edited by 40 Mile
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11 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


I don't believe anything Tesla says and I damn sure don't believe anything their sycophantic fans say. 

 

I don't disagree with you on that...but if its any where near the truth, the number I gave is what is basically...a interest free loan. 

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14 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

You mean they have a 100 million interest free loan from their customers?

 

No sir. Reservation fees are considered customer deposits and are listed as current liabilities on the balance sheet until they are refunded or applied to customers' purchase balance. 

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2 hours ago, 40 Mile said:

Isn't there a Transit model (Custom?) available in Europe as a Hybrid?

Is there a market for it here in North America?

Does it have a electric only option?

 

Transit Custom PHEV is available in Europe. Comes with 1.0 EB and 13.6 kwh battery.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2019/09/23/New-Ford-Transit-and-Tourneo-Custom-Plug-In-Hybrids-Deliver-Zero-Emission-Driving.html

 

I think in general, PHEV's time in the US is over. CARB rules that limits charging the battery from running the engine in steady state driving make PHEV difficult to implement - essentially, you have to plug it in for PHEV to work and you might as well go full EV at that point. This is why GM phased out Volt and why Ford didn't bother with F-150 or Transit PHEV. 

 

PHEV was intended as a stop gap measure until full EV is viable. EV technology has progressed much faster than expected and the PHEV market has been squeezed out by regulation and consumer/fleet demand. On the regulation side, the framework has always assumed PHEV is a temporary measure. On the demand side, PHEV is rooted in perceived range anxiety challenge but if you have to plug in PHEV to make it work anyway, most people realize very quickly it is pointless. 

Edited by bzcat
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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

 

I think in general, PHEV's time in the US is over. CARB rules that limits charging the battery from running the engine in steady state driving make PHEV difficult to implement - essentially, you have to plug it in for PHEV to work and you might as well go full EV at that point. This is why GM phased out Volt and why Ford didn't bother with F-150 or Transit PHEV. 

 

PHEV was intended as a stop gap measure until full EV is viable. EV technology has progressed much faster than expected and the PHEV market has been squeezed out by regulation and consumer/fleet demand. On the regulation side, the framework has always assumed PHEV is a temporary measure. On the demand side, PHEV is rooted in perceived range anxiety challenge but if you have to plug in PHEV to make it work anyway, most people realize very quickly it is pointless. 

It’s time hasn’t really gotten started.  Batteries were and still are expensive, heavy, and bulky.  They were also supply limited.  It should be getting easier to get a higher capacity battery that will fit the limited space for a PHEV.   It’s about having a diverse portfolio of products.  PHEV will work great for those making short local trips and still desire the long range and hassle free fill ups of gas or diesel.  Put an inductive charging pad on the garage floor and forget about it.
 

We may be reading different papers, but I don’t see the battery technology and pricing progressing as predicted, it has been slower.  The lightning made a big leap in affordability, but the profitability of it is questionable.  We all know Ford had some good margins on the Fseries.  It will be some time before we know anything about the financials on the Lightning.  Tesla wasn’t crushing it in profits either...especially considering their direct sales model captures what would have been dealer profits onto the bottom line along with selling carbon credits.

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4 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Transit Custom PHEV is available in Europe. Comes with 1.0 EB and 13.6 kwh battery.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2019/09/23/New-Ford-Transit-and-Tourneo-Custom-Plug-In-Hybrids-Deliver-Zero-Emission-Driving.html

 

I think in general, PHEV's time in the US is over. CARB rules that limits charging the battery from running the engine in steady state driving make PHEV difficult to implement - essentially, you have to plug it in for PHEV to work and you might as well go full EV at that point. This is why GM phased out Volt and why Ford didn't bother with F-150 or Transit PHEV. 

 

PHEV was intended as a stop gap measure until full EV is viable. EV technology has progressed much faster than expected and the PHEV market has been squeezed out by regulation and consumer/fleet demand. On the regulation side, the framework has always assumed PHEV is a temporary measure. On the demand side, PHEV is rooted in perceived range anxiety challenge but if you have to plug in PHEV to make it work anyway, most people realize very quickly it is pointless. 


EV hasn’t come close to being viable as a full replacement for ICE.  Too many people can’t charge at home and the charge times and charging infrastructure isn’t there especially in rural areas.  PHEVs work just as well as BEVs for people who take mostly short trips and they work just as well as ICE vehicles on longer trips.  It’s the perfect interim solution.  My neighbor drove a Volt 45 miles each way to work and only used a couple of tanks of gas per year.  It works until all of the other issues are solved.  And they will be solved eventually but not in 10 years.

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9 hours ago, 40 Mile said:

Isn't there a Transit model (Custom?) available in Europe as a Hybrid?

Is there a market for it here in North America?

Does it have a electric only option?

 

I have to LOL at your last question while looking at the post/picture you quoted........

 

image.thumb.png.b55aad8ab6663c720bceaed22f2aa4dd.png

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11 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

I have to LOL at your last question while looking at the post/picture you quoted........

 

image.thumb.png.b55aad8ab6663c720bceaed22f2aa4dd.png

Yes, my error, should have caught that or worded differently!

Should have been more specific about the Transit Custom model, that's not available in N.A.

Thanks!

Edited by 40 Mile
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13 hours ago, akirby said:


EV hasn’t come close to being viable as a full replacement for ICE.  Too many people can’t charge at home and the charge times and charging infrastructure isn’t there especially in rural areas.  PHEVs work just as well as BEVs for people who take mostly short trips and they work just as well as ICE vehicles on longer trips.  It’s the perfect interim solution.  My neighbor drove a Volt 45 miles each way to work and only used a couple of tanks of gas per year.  It works until all of the other issues are solved.  And they will be solved eventually but not in 10 years.

 

I know you are stuck on EV has to be a "full replacement" for ICE but that's not what the market sees or how it is evolving. There will be certain uses that will never be replaced by EV. Long distance trucking for example will more likely to be replaced by rail before they are replaced by electric or hydrogen fuel cell trucks. There won't be a one-for-one replacement for every ICE use. The economy is going to change and adopt more efficient ways to move goods and people in order to limit CO2 emission. You have to think bigger.

 

Your neighbor is using his or her Volt correctly. But there were many Gen 1 Volts that were never plugged in. And that's why the regulators stepped in. PHEV is a transitional solution but it has significant downsides. It is expensive and complicated. Will they continue to exist in certain fashion? Yes. Will they ever become mainstream? The market seems to be saying no. Look at EU and China which are about 5 years ahead of US - they had the same kind of incentives in place to encourage PHEV but the consumers favored EV instead. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, slemke said:

It’s time hasn’t really gotten started.  Batteries were and still are expensive, heavy, and bulky.  They were also supply limited.  It should be getting easier to get a higher capacity battery that will fit the limited space for a PHEV.   It’s about having a diverse portfolio of products.  PHEV will work great for those making short local trips and still desire the long range and hassle free fill ups of gas or diesel.  Put an inductive charging pad on the garage floor and forget about it.
 

We may be reading different papers, but I don’t see the battery technology and pricing progressing as predicted, it has been slower.  The lightning made a big leap in affordability, but the profitability of it is questionable.  We all know Ford had some good margins on the Fseries.  It will be some time before we know anything about the financials on the Lightning.  Tesla wasn’t crushing it in profits either...especially considering their direct sales model captures what would have been dealer profits onto the bottom line along with selling carbon credits.


I'm not saying PHEV doesn't have utility value. I'm saying there is no regulatory path forward for them, especially in the form of performance-enhancing PHEV like Aviator GT, most of what's coming out of Germany, and the likely F-150 PHEV if Ford built one. 

 

PHEV is great idea but one that is facing a lot of skepticism from regulators because it has potential to be emit much more CO2 than the equivalent ICE or simple hybrids. Car companies know this and this is why they've largely abandon development of PHEV.

 

Edited by bzcat
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14 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

I know you are stuck on EV has to be a "full replacement" for ICE but that's not what the market sees or how it is evolving. There will be certain uses that will never be replaced by EV. Long distance trucking for example will more likely to be replaced by rail before they are replaced by electric or hydrogen fuel cell trucks. There won't be a one-for-one replacement for every ICE use. The economy is going to change and adopt more efficient ways to move goods and people in order to limit CO2 emission. You have to think bigger.

 

Your neighbor is using his or her Volt correctly. But there were many Gen 1 Volts that were never plugged in. And that's why the regulators stepped in. PHEV is a transitional solution but it has significant downsides. It is expensive and complicated. Will they continue to exist in certain fashion? Yes. Will they ever become mainstream? The market seems to be saying no. Look at EU and China which are about 5 years ahead of US - they had the same kind of incentives in place to encourage PHEV but the consumers favored EV instead. 

 

 

 

Well rperez was saying ICE and PHEVs are bad and the answer is 100% EVs so that's the way I interpreted your response.

 

If you're saying that PHEVs are not necessary given the improvements in EVs with the assumption that ICE vehicles (maybe HEVs) also remain then I can buy that.  I think it would be very easy for people to have a BEV for local use (charged at home) and a HEV or ICE for longer trips including heavy duty hauling.   Some people today are willing to go 100% EV if they have good charging access and are willing to plan their trips around charging.

 

I could easily go with a F150 Lightning but would not want an EV second vehicle yet.

 

Where it really hurts is for people who only want one vehicle but are not willing to go 100% EV yet.   A single person with one vehicle living in an apartment is a perfect example.  Especially if they're not in a large metro area.

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16 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 it has potential to be emit much more CO2 than the equivalent ICE or simple hybrids.

 

How is that possible unless government regulations force it to be driven in charge sustaining mode most of the time?

 

Even without charging, it's much more fuel efficient than a non-HEV ICE vehicle.   And if you do charge and only drive locally it can reduce fuel consumption dramatically.

 

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

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17 minutes ago, akirby said:

How is that possible unless government regulations force it to be driven in charge sustaining mode most of the time?

 

PHEV are considerably heavier than corresponding simple hybrids (e.g., Prius Prime curb wright is 360 lbs. greater than comparably equipped Prius), decreasing fuel efficiency in CS mode. Real world usage of most PHEV is CS dominant because of their low AER, not because of government regulations.

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11 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

Real world usage of most PHEV is CS dominant because of their low AER, not because of government regulations.

 

You don't EVER have to use CS mode in a PHEV regardless of the AER, therefore your statement is false.  

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23 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Real world usage data for PHEV refutes that.


You mean real world usage in Europe where regulations force them to do it?

 

I can’t think of any reason why you would use charge sustaining mode in the US.

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2 hours ago, akirby said:

A single person with one vehicle living in an apartment is a perfect example.  Especially if they're not in a large metro area.


metro area or not I don't see many building owners spending the money for electric vehicle chargers on their properties 

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33 minutes ago, akirby said:

You mean real world usage in Europe where regulations force them to do it?

 

No sir, U.S. and Canada. Example is the data collected by Allen Bukoff and Pei Wang of Autothink Research in 2019 for ICE, simple hybrid, PHEV, BEV, and FCEV owners in the U.S. and Canada. They found that in general, PHEV usage patterns much more closely resembled simple hybrids (CS mode dominant) than BEV (CD mode dominant). There were 3 exceptions to this - owners of Chevrolet Volt, Cadillac ELR, and BMW i3 with Range Extender reported CD dominant usage on average.

 

The authors of the study said.

Plug-in Hybrids may be doing more to delay the consumer transition from ICE vehicles to EVs than to serve as a useful “bridge” or transition facilitator. EVs are now ready for prime time (i.e., as a fully capable substitute for millions of ICE vehicles). Plug-in hybrids (especially the ones offering only 10 – 25 miles of auxiliary electric range) may actually be perpetuating and prolonging the use of internal combustion engines and petroleum more than they are facilitating the transition to all-battery EVs.

 

We think there is a much greater consumer need and use for Extended Range Electric Vehicles (EREVs) now than there is for Plug-in Hybrids. EREVs – ones that have at least 75-mile electric range and a 100-mile-plus ICE range (and an ICE engine that generates enough power for all highway speeds and hills) – would be the most functional, flexible and least constrained vehicle choice for those currently living in and/or frequently traveling through rural areas (i.e., areas or routes where fast-recharging stations are sparsely deployed)."

 

You're welcome. And you can return to the regularly scheduled discussion of F-150 Lightning Pro in this thread now.

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49 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


metro area or not I don't see many building owners spending the money for electric vehicle chargers on their properties 


for new construction I do.  But retrofitting older buildings I’d agree with you.

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4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

How is that possible unless government regulations force it to be driven in charge sustaining mode most of the time?

 

Even without charging, it's much more fuel efficient than a non-HEV ICE vehicle.   And if you do charge and only drive locally it can reduce fuel consumption dramatically.

 

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

 

Ok, no arguing. Just explanation ?

 

If you do plug in PHEV regularly, it has very low CO2 footprint. Remember, intended use = intended results. 

 

If you never plug in PHEV and if the PHEV is regularly used in charge mode, then it will likely emit more CO2 than a comparable ICE car. PHEV is heavier than ICE so they consume more gas when operating in ICE only or charge mode. And the conversion lost on charge mode means driven in such a way over long periods, it becomes a gross CO2 polluter. 

 

In Europe, PHEV was conceived as a work around to enable ICE to operate in congestion zone which has exemption for ZEV. The idea is that if the car is plugged in when parked, it can use the EV mode to go in and out of congestion zone as a ZEV. But of course car companies quickly sold the idea that in fact, you don't need to plug it in at all because we will give you this charge mode so you can charge up while commuting from the suburbs and just switch to EV mode when you get into congestion zone. This is obviously not how regulators intended PHEV to be used. And since PHEV is expensive (twe driventrain = twice the cost... I'm generalizing but it's mostly true) so it is mainly a luxury car feature. The middle part of the market prefers EV because it is a lot more affordable compared to PHEV. This is why most brands in Europe now offers EV version of their B or C segment CUV, instead of PHEV. 

 

In the US, PHEV was always sold as a remedy for range anxiety as opposed to a tool for rich people to get around congestion zone. But because of the tax credit in place, some people bought it just to claim the tax credit and they never plugged in the car. Early PHEV like Gen 1 Volt or Audi A3 etron had software algorithm that automatically charged the battery in certain condition while in hybrid mode or have charge mode that increased fuel consumption. This is what CARB came down against. CARB made it much more difficult for PHEV to charge by running the engine so it became necessary to plug those cars in because otherwise they run out of electric only range very quickly. In hybrid mode, they still work just fine because hybrid mainly recharge by capturing regen braking. To get around the CARB rule, GM and Audi had to disable the charge mode on their PHEV in 2017 model year. Some manufacturer like BMW refused to do it citing various reasons. This is why some early 2017 Volt and the F30 generation BMW 330e didn't qualify for CARB rebate or HOV lane access. Other companies like Honda also temporarily suspended sales of PHEV but eventually brought it back with revised software that limited the use of charge mode. On Clarity for example, it will only recharge when there is excess engine power and will only charge up 60% of the battery capacity. That was carefully calculated to make sure it doesn't exceed theoretical CO2 limit if it just ran on ICE only for a certain distance. As you can see, the regulatory hurdle for PHEV is high and will be increasingly so. It's like the next diesel...

 

The basic premise of PHEV is "best of both worlds". But it is really a compromise, not best of either world. If I had to guess, traditional ICE hybrids will live on longer than PHEV for this precise reason... hybrids are simple (relatively speaking), doesn't weight a lot more than ICE only, and can operate in short distance EV only mode if required (it can be programed that way). PHEV add complexity and more weight to this equation but with only limited upside - it can operate in EV only mode for longer distance than regular hybrid due to larger battery packs. But if operating in EV only mode is the primarily objective or desire, EV does a better job than PHEV. This is not to say PHEV won't exist. They will almost certainly continue to be an option on luxury cars. But hybrid and EV will be more common by 2030 than PHEV.

 

So there you have it... I hope this explains why I think PHEV's 15 minutes of fame is over. 

 

Edit: another way to think about this is there are two ways to make a PHEV:

1. Take ICE hybrid and add more battery

2. Take EV and add ICE

 

#1 is the European way and how Ford designed Aviator GT. This is falling out of favor rapidly because regulators don't like it. And there is some evidence that it doesn't reduce CO2 emission.

 

#2 is Volt... and it doesn't make a lot of sense because if you can run your daily commute in EV mode, then why even bother lugging around the engine which actually reduces your range?

Edited by bzcat
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2 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Ok, no arguing. Just explanation ?

 

If you do plug in PHEV regularly, it has very low CO2 footprint. Remember, intended use = intended results. 

 

If you never plug in PHEV and if the PHEV is regularly used in charge mode, then it will likely emit more CO2 than a comparable ICE car. PHEV is heavier than ICE so they consume more gas when operating in ICE only or charge mode. And the conversion lost on charge mode means driven in such a way over long periods, it becomes a gross CO2 polluter. 

 

In Europe, PHEV was conceived as a work around to enable ICE to operate in congestion zone which has exemption for ZEV. The idea is that if the car is plugged in when parked, it can use the EV mode to go in and out of congestion zone as a ZEV. But of course car companies quickly sold the idea that in fact, you don't need to plug it in at all because we will give you this charge mode so you can charge up while commuting from the suburbs and just switch to EV mode when you get into congestion zone. This is obviously not how regulators intended PHEV to be used. And since PHEV is expensive (twe driventrain = twice the cost... I'm generalizing but it's mostly true) so it is mainly a luxury car feature. The middle part of the market prefers EV because it is a lot more affordable compared to PHEV. This is why most brands in Europe now offers EV version of their B or C segment CUV, instead of PHEV. 

 

In the US, PHEV was always sold as a remedy for range anxiety as opposed to a tool for rich people to get around congestion zone. But because of the tax credit in place, some people bought it just to claim the tax credit and they never plugged in the car. Early PHEV like Gen 1 Volt or Audi A3 etron had software algorithm that automatically charged the battery in certain condition while in hybrid mode or have charge mode that increased fuel consumption. This is what CARB came down against. CARB made it much more difficult for PHEV to charge by running the engine so it became necessary to plug those cars in because otherwise they run out of electric only range very quickly. In hybrid mode, they still work just fine because hybrid mainly recharge by capturing regen braking. To get around the CARB rule, GM and Audi had to disable the charge mode on their PHEV in 2017 model year. Some manufacturer like BMW refused to do it citing various reasons. This is why some early 2017 Volt and the F30 generation BMW 330e didn't qualify for CARB rebate or HOV lane access. Other companies like Honda also temporarily suspended sales of PHEV but eventually brought it back with revised software that limited the use of charge mode. On Clarity for example, it will only recharge when there is excess engine power and will only charge up 60% of the battery capacity. That was carefully calculated to make sure it doesn't exceed theoretical CO2 limit if it just ran on ICE only for a certain distance. As you can see, the regulatory hurdle for PHEV is high and will be increasingly so. It's like the next diesel...

 

The basic premise of PHEV is "best of both worlds". But it is really a compromise, not best of either world. If I had to guess, traditional ICE hybrids will live on longer than PHEV for this precise reason... hybrids are simple (relatively speaking), doesn't weight a lot more than ICE only, and can operate in short distance EV only mode if required (it can be programed that way). PHEV add complexity and more weight to this equation but with only limited upside - it can operate in EV only mode for longer distance than regular hybrid due to larger battery packs. But if operating in EV only mode is the primarily objective or desire, EV does a better job than PHEV. This is not to say PHEV won't exist. They will almost certainly continue to be an option on luxury cars. But hybrid and EV will be more common by 2030 than PHEV.

 

So there you have it... I hope this explains why I think PHEV's 15 minutes of fame is over. 

 

Edit: another way to think about this is there are two ways to make a PHEV:

1. Take ICE hybrid and add more battery

2. Take EV and add ICE

 

#1 is the European way and how Ford designed Aviator GT. This is falling out of favor rapidly because regulators don't like it. And there is some evidence that it doesn't reduce CO2 emission.

 

#2 is Volt... and it doesn't make a lot of sense because if you can run your daily commute in EV mode, then why even bother lugging around the engine which actually reduces your range?


That all makes sense.  PHEVs do work if you charge them and do a lot of short trips.  
 

I can buy that a HEV or ICE and a BEV might be better than a PHEV and a BEV in most cases.

 

What I can’t buy is that BEVs are suitable replacements for ICE, HEVs and PHEVs for people with only one vehicle or people who don’t have access to home charging until we get faster locally accessible public charging.

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4 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Ok, no arguing. Just explanation ?

 

If you do plug in PHEV regularly, it has very low CO2 footprint. Remember, intended use = intended results. 

 

If you never plug in PHEV and if the PHEV is regularly used in charge mode, then it will likely emit more CO2 than a comparable ICE car. PHEV is heavier than ICE so they consume more gas when operating in ICE only or charge mode. And the conversion lost on charge mode means driven in such a way over long periods, it becomes a gross CO2 polluter. 

 

In Europe, PHEV was conceived as a work around to enable ICE to operate in congestion zone which has exemption for ZEV. The idea is that if the car is plugged in when parked, it can use the EV mode to go in and out of congestion zone as a ZEV. But of course car companies quickly sold the idea that in fact, you don't need to plug it in at all because we will give you this charge mode so you can charge up while commuting from the suburbs and just switch to EV mode when you get into congestion zone. This is obviously not how regulators intended PHEV to be used. And since PHEV is expensive (twe driventrain = twice the cost... I'm generalizing but it's mostly true) so it is mainly a luxury car feature. The middle part of the market prefers EV because it is a lot more affordable compared to PHEV. This is why most brands in Europe now offers EV version of their B or C segment CUV, instead of PHEV. 

 

In the US, PHEV was always sold as a remedy for range anxiety as opposed to a tool for rich people to get around congestion zone. But because of the tax credit in place, some people bought it just to claim the tax credit and they never plugged in the car. Early PHEV like Gen 1 Volt or Audi A3 etron had software algorithm that automatically charged the battery in certain condition while in hybrid mode or have charge mode that increased fuel consumption. This is what CARB came down against. CARB made it much more difficult for PHEV to charge by running the engine so it became necessary to plug those cars in because otherwise they run out of electric only range very quickly. In hybrid mode, they still work just fine because hybrid mainly recharge by capturing regen braking. To get around the CARB rule, GM and Audi had to disable the charge mode on their PHEV in 2017 model year. Some manufacturer like BMW refused to do it citing various reasons. This is why some early 2017 Volt and the F30 generation BMW 330e didn't qualify for CARB rebate or HOV lane access. Other companies like Honda also temporarily suspended sales of PHEV but eventually brought it back with revised software that limited the use of charge mode. On Clarity for example, it will only recharge when there is excess engine power and will only charge up 60% of the battery capacity. That was carefully calculated to make sure it doesn't exceed theoretical CO2 limit if it just ran on ICE only for a certain distance. As you can see, the regulatory hurdle for PHEV is high and will be increasingly so. It's like the next diesel...

 

The basic premise of PHEV is "best of both worlds". But it is really a compromise, not best of either world. If I had to guess, traditional ICE hybrids will live on longer than PHEV for this precise reason... hybrids are simple (relatively speaking), doesn't weight a lot more than ICE only, and can operate in short distance EV only mode if required (it can be programed that way). PHEV add complexity and more weight to this equation but with only limited upside - it can operate in EV only mode for longer distance than regular hybrid due to larger battery packs. But if operating in EV only mode is the primarily objective or desire, EV does a better job than PHEV. This is not to say PHEV won't exist. They will almost certainly continue to be an option on luxury cars. But hybrid and EV will be more common by 2030 than PHEV.

 

So there you have it... I hope this explains why I think PHEV's 15 minutes of fame is over. 

 

Edit: another way to think about this is there are two ways to make a PHEV:

1. Take ICE hybrid and add more battery

2. Take EV and add ICE

 

#1 is the European way and how Ford designed Aviator GT. This is falling out of favor rapidly because regulators don't like it. And there is some evidence that it doesn't reduce CO2 emission.

 

#2 is Volt... and it doesn't make a lot of sense because if you can run your daily commute in EV mode, then why even bother lugging around the engine which actually reduces your range?

That all makes sense, but a large portion of the shortcomings sighted are due to regulator interference.  Regulations are providing the loopholes for folks to abuse.  I looked at one of the German PHEVs....the tax credit was more than the up charge for PHEV.  No brainer to get the PHEV and then use it as a regular hybrid if you don’t want to bother charging it. I can see why that is frowned upon by regulators.  Fix the regulations and the problem goes away. PHEVs may or may not survive on their own, just let the market decide.

 

#2 Makes sense in that you have a choice:  a) lug around extra batteries for the few times you need more range or b) lug around an ICE and associated hardware for additional range.  A was extremely expensive, particularly on what was billed as an affordable, clean, commuter car.  So B. Got the go ahead.  As battery technology improves, B will become less attractive.

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