The New 6.8L V8 Thread

[30 OTT 6]

17 hours ago, Power Kid said:

This has been hashed out many times over the last 18 months but IMHO replacing the 6.2L doesn't make sense as the 6.8L (based on F150 & Mustang applications) will have an aluminum block which won't work in the SD. And even if they did, specs are so close to a 7.3L why bother? 6.2L was old and already around, price point offering. But were all speculating so I guess we'll find out...

 

Maybe the 6.8L is replacing the 6.2L in Super Duty and the 3.5L Ecoboost in the F150/Expedition? The 6.8L could double duty as the top engine in the F150 and base engine in F250. 

[92merc]

1 hour ago, 30 OTT 6 said:

 

Maybe the 6.8L is replacing the 6.2L in Super Duty and the 3.5L Ecoboost in the F150/Expedition? The 6.8L could double duty as the top engine in the F150 and base engine in F250. 

Ford won't be dropping any Ecoboost engines in the F150/Expi.  They just updated the 3.5EB not that long ago. 

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, 92merc said:

Ford won't be dropping any Ecoboost engines in the F150/Expi.  They just updated the 3.5EB not that long ago. 

 

Exactly, the 3.5L is the high end engine...the 6.8L would just be just found in the God tier products that they sell 5-10K a year of like the Raptor.

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Exactly, the 3.5L is the high end engine...the 6.8L would just be just found in the God tier products that they sell 5-10K a year of like the Raptor.

I’m still intrigued by the idea that the 6.8 is being set up in the Windsor Annex plant. If it was just a short stroke 7.3 with better heads, then it wouldn’t need a whole other line. Whatever Ford is planning, it’s different enough to warrant its own special production line.

 

I still keep wondering if the 6.8 is a clever rework of the 6.2, a bit like how coyote transformed the Mod V8 into something much better…….and with low cost.

Edited April 26, 2022 by jpd80

[Stray Kat]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

I’m still intrigued by the idea that the 6.8 is being set up in the Windsor Annex plant. If it was just a short stroke 7.3 with better heads, then it wouldn’t need a whole other line. Whatever Ford is planning, it’s different enough to warrant its own special production line.

 

I still keep wondering if the 6.8 is a clever rework of the 6.2, a bit like how coyote transformed the Mod V8 into something much better…….and with low cost.

Would having the cylinder block made of aluminum require the 6.8 to be built on a separate line? Assuming of course that it does in fact have an alloy block.  

[jpd80]

10 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

The issue was heat rejection in medium duty truck (450 and larger) applications.  That's why the 6.8L V-10 stayed around in those trucks.  The 6.2L does fine in gaseous fuel applications in the 250 and 350.  The 7.3L can replace both the 6.2L and the 6.8L V-10 in any application, and the de-tuned 7.3L supposedly gives the same fuel economy as the 6.2L does in the E series and stripped chassis models.  Though a good engine, the 6.2L has been redundant for the last 2 years and I have no idea why Ford is keeping it around.  BTW, the 7.3L actually has a lot in common with the 6.2L. 

Without load on the highway, a 7.3 will match the 6.2’s fuel economy (15-16 mpg). Under loaded conditions, the bigger 7.3 shows an improvement in fuel economy.

 

In large trucks that are constantly loaded, larger capacity engines have  the reverse effect on fuel economy versus a turbo gas engine 

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

Would having the cylinder block made of aluminum require the 6.8 to be built on a separate line? Assuming of course that it does in fact have an alloy block.  

That’s a possibility I guess but thinking that only $114 million was spent on development, that means Ford will be seeking maximum bang with least amount of bucks.

Would you prefer an all alloy pushrod V8 or a multi valve OHC iron block V8?

[Stray Kat]

4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

That’s a possibility I guess but thinking that only $114 million was spent on development, that means Ford will be seeking maximum bang with least amount of bucks.

Would you prefer an all alloy pushrod V8 or a multi valve OHC iron block V8?

I would prefer an aluminum or CGI pushrod engine based on the 7.3 architecture. I would prefer the same or larger bore size but with a shorter stroke and lower deck to facilitate even better packaging possibilities and increase it’s “Rev” ability. 
 

My wish list would include Ford hitting a magic number like 427,428 or 429 cubic inches for sheer marketing reasons. 
 

The reasons I give for the above opinion are silly probably but I’m a hot rodder at heart. This will be Ford’s swan song probably for V8 engines in light vehicles. 
 

Right now the GM LS/LT owns the hot rodding community lock stock and barrel. 
 

I’d like Ford to put them in their place one last time. Immature and small minded I know but we’re talking about leaving a lasting impression. 
 

Sell a half million 429” S650 Mustangs called the Mach 1 and Cobra Jet and all of a sudden it’s not so silly. 

[ESP08]

8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

That’s a possibility I guess but thinking that only $114 million was spent on development, that means Ford will be seeking maximum bang with least amount of bucks.

Would you prefer an all alloy pushrod V8 or a multi valve OHC iron block V8?

 

I would prefer an alloy block multi-valve V8.

 

Ford can never put GM in their place by following their LS/LT path; which is all a Godzilla-based 6.8 can ever be --  an also-ran, a shining example of too little too late, an LS/LT wannabe.   

A Godzilla-based 6.8 will offer no notable architectural advantages over the LS/LT and will never have the production volume to displace the LS as the common swap project or to incentivize aftermarket development like the LS/LT enjoys.    

You can't beat GM at their own game when they've had a 25 year head start.  

 

If Ford wants to go out with a bang and put GM in their place they should double-down on the path they set out on with the Modular. 

Combine everything they've learned over the last 3 decades with the Modular/Coyote and pair it with that 4.53" Boss/Godzilla bore spacing.   Finally give the Modular fans what they've been asking for.  

This path can leave every OEM pushrod architecture ever devised in the dust, and that includes the big blocks.   

Edited April 27, 2022 by ESP08

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

I would prefer an aluminum or CGI pushrod engine based on the 7.3 architecture. I would prefer the same or larger bore size but with a shorter stroke and lower deck to facilitate even better packaging possibilities and increase it’s “Rev” ability. 
 

My wish list would include Ford hitting a magic number like 427,428 or 429 cubic inches for sheer marketing reasons. 
 

The reasons I give for the above opinion are silly probably but I’m a hot rodder at heart. This will be Ford’s swan song probably for V8 engines in light vehicles. 
 

Right now the GM LS/LT owns the hot rodding community lock stock and barrel. 
 

I’d like Ford to put them in their place one last time. Immature and small minded I know but we’re talking about leaving a lasting impression. 
 

Sell a half million 429” S650 Mustangs called the Mach 1 and Cobra Jet and all of a sudden it’s not so silly. 

Idk, if Ford wanted to go down the one last cool performance v8 route, I'd rather seem then continue to evolve and improve the 5.0 rather than throwing something like a 6.8 in the mustang and calling it a day. The 5.0 is ford's best v8 ever, sounds great, easy to mod, excellent performance when stock, and extremely durable. I just don't see a need to develop a new v8 when your existing v8 is so good. Just improve what you already have. 

[Stray Kat]

20 minutes ago, ESP08 said:

 

I would prefer an alloy block multi-valve V8.

 

Ford can never put GM in their place by following their path with the LS/LT, which is all a Godzilla based 6.8 can ever be. 

Just an also-ran, too little too late.  

 

If Ford wants to go out with a bang it needs to be a 4-valve per cylinder engine on that 4.53" Boss/Godzilla bore spacing.   

This will leave every OE pushrod architecture ever devised in the dust, including big blocks.  

I agree with you on principle. I’m completely taken aback by the lack of support the Ford 6.2 has received from the aftermarket. 
 

It truly is a modern day Cammer. Better in every way in fact but nary a wisp of support.

 

The Raptor 6.2 architecture doesn’t need multi valves really. It has a brilliantly designed cylinder head as it is. Maybe a version 2.0 that is tuned for performance or even just a CNC ported version available over the counter with 350 CFM potential. 
 

The problem for the hot rodders is that they have been programmed that push rod 2 valves can do whatever they want especially with boost. They are unwilling to take on any extra complexity. Never mind the complex pushrod engines GM and Mopar are building these days to meet EPA, CAFE and customer expectations. 
 

A direct injection V8 with AFM or DOD and VCT can’t really be called simple anymore even if it has pushrod 2 valves but you won’t convince the average guy out there. 
 

Recently I was observing photos from the LS Fest. Are you familiar? Well apparently this year there was a big demonstration of off road “Pre Runner” or sand cars doing their thing on a closed course. 
 

Sure enough! Many of those trucks were classic Fords and modern day Raptors modified for off road racing and all powered by GM engines. 
 

Trans Am, ARCA, Craftsman Truck and many other more minor series are adopting “spec” GM engines based on the LS. No matter the body style. 
 

Could a Raptor 6.2 be built to slap the LS around? No doubt yes but if it ain’t simple inexpensive and small it ain’t gonna get used much. 
 

 

[ESP08]

18 minutes ago, Stray Kat said:

I agree with you on principle. I’m completely taken aback by the lack of support the Ford 6.2 has received from the aftermarket. 
 

It truly is a modern day Cammer. Better in every way in fact but nary a wisp of support.

 

The Raptor 6.2 architecture doesn’t need multi valves really. It has a brilliantly designed cylinder head as it is. Maybe a version 2.0 that is tuned for performance or even just a CNC ported version available over the counter with 350 CFM potential. 
 

The problem for the hot rodders is that they have been programmed that push rod 2 valves can do whatever they want especially with boost. They are unwilling to take on any extra complexity. Never mind the complex pushrod engines GM and Mopar are building these days to meet EPA, CAFE and customer expectations. 

 

I suggest you make a trip to Mod Nationals one year and see what can be achieved in spite of bore spacing limitations thanks to multi-valve cylinder heads.  

Not all hot-rodders are scared of multiple cams and valves; in fact that's all that interests me to build.   

I am utterly bored by LSs.   

 

I think spec racing will always default to LS because of their prevalence and I don't think any architecture launched at this point will change that.   

 

IMO, a multi-valve engine with displacement potential will force a realignment of most hot rodder's expectations and perceptions.  

[ESP08]

27 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Idk, if Ford wanted to go down the one last cool performance v8 route, I'd rather seem then continue to evolve and improve the 5.0 rather than throwing something like a 6.8 in the mustang and calling it a day. The 5.0 is ford's best v8 ever, sounds great, easy to mod, excellent performance when stock, and extremely durable. I just don't see a need to develop a new v8 when your existing v8 is so good. Just improve what you already have. 

 

I agree the Coyote is the best Ford engine ever produced -- but just imagine the Coyote with the Boss's bore spacing/displacement capacity.   

[Stray Kat]

Okay I don’t want to argue with you. In fact I have the utmost respect for your opinion. I’m completely aware of what’s going on with the Coyote. I live in Florida and there are plenty of fast Coyote Mustangs here. Recently I was fortunate enough to attend an NMRA event at Bradenton. The Coyote Stock class was an example of the completely amazing Coyote engine and mostly Mustang platform. 
 

Having said that, C’mon man! Think about the spell the hot rod community has been under not just from the LS but since 1955 with the introduction of the sbc. 
 

There are tens of thousands of Chevy into Ford conversions. (You don’t have to explain why I know ALL the reasons)

 

I think that ☝️is an insult to Ford Motor Company and I would’ve done some things to reverse that trend. (I did try privately)

 

Listen Ford built the 7.3 for a reason. They went with pushrods and 2 valves to reduce cost, complexity and size. It just so happens that those same characteristics serve the interests of the car modifying industry. 
 

We are at the sunset of ICE engines in muscle cars. My point is to go out with a bang and then keep building a 429” Godzilla engine for years to come and put it right next to the iron block 445” Godzilla in the parts catalog. 
 

 

 

[Stray Kat]

1 hour ago, ESP08 said:

 

I would prefer an alloy block multi-valve V8.

 

Ford can never put GM in their place by following their LS/LT path; which is all a Godzilla-based 6.8 can ever be --  an also-ran, a shining example of too little too late, an LS/LT wannabe.   

A Godzilla-based 6.8 will offer no notable architectural advantages over the LS/LT and will never have the production volume to displace the LS as the common swap project or to incentivize aftermarket development like the LS/LT enjoys.    

You can't beat GM at their own game when they've had a 25 year head start.  

 

If Ford wants to go out with a bang and put GM in their place they should double-down on the path they set out on with the Modular. 

Combine everything they've learned over the last 3 decades with the Modular/Coyote and pair it with that 4.53" Boss/Godzilla bore spacing.   Finally give the Modular fans what they've been asking for.  

This path can leave every OEM pushrod architecture ever devised in the dust, and that includes the big blocks.   

Don’t ever worry about the Godzilla being an LS wannabe. That LS motor is the official reaction of what General Motors saw the Ford small block racers doing in the late 80’s and 90’s during the 5.0 revolution. 

[ESP08]

Stray Kat, I'm not trying to argue either.   

Notice I am not attacking your positions at all, I am only offering my perspective on the topic.  

 

In my view, Ford's last performance engine being a pushrod engine is an admission of defeat.   

It's a slap in the face to all of the people that have pushed the Modular/Coyote to be the 2nd most popular late-model engine performance architecture.  

The Coyote after-market has gotten pretty huge and it is definitely the #2 most common swap project going.   

 

The Coyote's only weakness is displacement capacity but take that away and the debate is over for all time.  

It's been so frustrating for me to see the Boss architecture just sitting there begging for the Coyote treatment.  ?

That's how Ford goes out with a bang with a giant middle finger to the GM-fans; IMO, just take away the Coyote's only weakness.    

 

The Godzilla absolutely makes sense for a 5500 rpm truck engine.  Lower cost, less size.  I get it.  

But a performance engine?   The Coyote has been legitimate competition for the LS/LT in virtually every class they both compete in in spite of being typically down by 50-100 cubic inches to the LS/LT.   The Coyote is actually beating up the LS in Ultra Street.  

 

The way I see it the formula is pretty simple:  Coyote + Boss = best domestic performance V8 architecture ever.  

[Stray Kat]

26 minutes ago, ESP08 said:

Stray Kat, I'm not trying to argue either.   

Notice I am not attacking your positions at all, I am only offering my perspective on the topic.  

 

In my view, Ford's last performance engine being a pushrod engine is an admission of defeat.   

It's a slap in the face to all of the people that have pushed the Modular/Coyote to be the 2nd most popular late-model engine performance architecture.  

The Coyote after-market has gotten pretty huge and it is definitely the #2 most common swap project going.   

 

The Coyote's only weakness is displacement capacity but take that away and the debate is over for all time.  

It's been so frustrating for me to see the Boss architecture just sitting there begging for the Coyote treatment.  ?

That's how Ford goes out with a bang with a giant middle finger to the GM-fans; IMO, just take away the Coyote's only weakness.    

 

The Godzilla absolutely makes sense for a 5500 rpm truck engine.  Lower cost, less size.  I get it.  

But a performance engine?   The Coyote has been legitimate competition for the LS/LT in virtually every class they both compete in in spite of being typically down by 50-100 cubic inches to the LS/LT.   The Coyote is actually beating up the LS in Ultra Street.  

 

The way I see it the formula is pretty simple:  Coyote + Boss = best domestic performance V8 architecture ever.  

Oh I agree the 6.2 with the Coyote top end would truly be a doomsday engine. I have argued for that loudly in the past. 
 

I wonder if you’re familiar with Don Bowles? He’s a long time Ford racer. His nickname is the “Coal Digger”. 
 

Anyhow he is affiliated with Jack Roush and some years back they collaborated on the “777” project which was a 7 liter Raptor engine built with some experimental parts. It was a beast!

 

Fast forward a few years and Mr. Bowles was testing in Bradenton at that time with a conventional Ford V8. He and his car spent a couple days at my friend’s race car shop for some detail work. 
 

I happened to visit and got Don Bowles on the subject of the 777 and I wish you could see his reaction. His face lit up and he basically said he couldn’t believe how easy it easy to make big power with that thing. 
 

He was all smiles. That was with conventional but specially cast heads that were ported. 
 

With a Coyote top end it would be unbelievable. 
 

Problem? It would still get passed over in favor of cheap GM power which GM has wisely refined into cheap Ford-like GM power. 

[ESP08]

The thing is GM power is always going to be cheaper.        

Turbocharged junkyard 5.3s will remain popular regardless of what Ford or anyone else does.   

They are just too plentiful, have a decent OE connecting, a decent OE cylinder head and that's usually the starting point from which most LS swap builds grow into something more serious (and expensive).    

 

But Ford has the ability to offer a thoroughly superior alternative as their parting shot here and it will be wildly attractive for those willing to pay to play. 

I really wish they would take it.     

 

I did follow Don and Project 777 closely as it happened, cool story.    

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by ESP08

[Stray Kat]

1 hour ago, ESP08 said:

The thing is GM power is always going to be cheaper.        

Turbocharged junkyard 5.3s will remain popular regardless of what Ford or anyone else does.   

They are just too plentiful, have a decent OE connecting, a decent OE cylinder head and that's usually the starting point from which most LS swap builds grow into something more serious (and expensive).    

 

But Ford has the ability to offer a thoroughly superior alternative as their parting shot here and it will be wildly attractive for those willing to pay to play. 

I really wish they would take it.     

 

I did follow Don and Project 777 closely as it happened, cool story.    

 

 

 

 

 

I guess maybe what you’re saying is too hard of a pill to swallow for me. 
 

Ford is the company that kicked off and popularized the affordable performance V8. 
 

For 20 years Ford had it sewed up. 
 

All throughout the 60’s and 70’s Ford simply missed on a few ingredients. They just wouldn’t give enough of a blank canvas and GM and Mopar did by comparison. 
 

The refusal to do a performance version of the Maverick or Mustang II. Ford really helped GM bust their ass for a decade. They woke up in 1982 and what happened? The 5.0 Revolution happened. 
 

FoMoCo never did much to help the early Ford V8 car enthusiasts to use actual Ford V8’s. There were some challenges built in that could’ve been rectified but NO nothing but a paltry water pump and a bag of excuses. 
 

So while they (FoMoCo) seem perfectly content with about 80% of the Ford fleet converted to GM power they are now backing teams in Craftsman Truck thst are required to have GM engines. Lol!

 

Would GM do that?☝️
 

The engine you describe has already been done by Ford twice. The one year only 427 SOHC and the two year Boss 429.  
 

Both were so limited they never really caught on. The big name racers were successful but that wasn’t much for the average guy. 
 

Listen in the grand scheme it doesn’t matter. Ford is very capable of building great one offs then letting them drop off the radar just like the 6.2 Raptor engine. 
 

I am personally not interested in unobtainium. In fact I’m a Flathead guy. I like having access and the ability to actually build one of those and finish it in a poor man’s salary. 
 

The engines that are truly legendary are the ones that elevate everyone.   

[Bob Rosadini]

Guys,

I may be off topic here, but I  recognize there is a lot of knowledge following this thread.  

Sooo...a friend of  mine recently traded in his 2011 F-150 5.0 for a new Duramax  GMC because he couldn't stand the constant "ticking" and in his words.."waiting for it to blow up".  (probably cam followers???) 

This guy by way is a site contractor with beautfiul old school Mack big trucks, but his small trucks  (other than this "personal" GMC are Fords.

 

I'm sure since 2011 there have been many improvements to the 5.0 and in fact there are numerous You Tube videos of various Ford techs when asked to pick an engine they would buy, most seem to favor the 5.0.

Im thinking of retiring my trusty Ranger FX4 Level II and a 5.0 is an option for my last new vehicle.

Comments??

[30 OTT 6]

18 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I still keep wondering if the 6.8 is a clever rework of the 6.2, a bit like how coyote transformed the Mod V8 into something much better…….and with low cost.

 

I think it was, with the added conversion of overhead cam to in-block cam. I also think that Coyote would never have happened if the 6.2L Boss (back when it was Hurricane in 2005) had performed better.  

[DeluxeStang]

On 7/23/2021 at 7:15 PM, jpd80 said:

Replace Coyote? No but to replace the 5.2 V8 engine line? Heck yeah?

Fun fact,

The Coyote was a clever development of the earlier 4.6 MOD and

the 5.2 was a clever reuse and extension of the 5.0 Cammer MOD,

so I suspect that the 6.8 will be a clever rework of the 6.2 Boss.

 

The 6.8 is intended to be the new special engine line that replaces the

S/C 5.2 special production line when it  ends late next year. 

I know most rumors indicate the voodoo won't be making a return, which is unfortunate. But some insiders have claimed that the gt500 engine will live on. 

[Stray Kat]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

I know most rumors indicate the voodoo won't be making a return, which is unfortunate. But some insiders have claimed that the gt500 engine will live on. 

I wonder what the unit cost is for the GT500 drop in engine? 
 

It’s got to be the most expensive engine in Ford’s arsenal. I love that engine but I can’t help but think a tuned up 6.8 with and “electric supercharger” in the bell housing that serves multipurposes HAS to be a very compelling option. 

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, 30 OTT 6 said:

 

I think it was, with the added conversion of overhead cam to in-block cam. I also think that Coyote would never have happened if the 6.2L Boss (back when it was Hurricane in 2005) had performed better.  

The context at the time was that the Ford brass wanted  to replace the 6.8 V10 with a large push rod V8, engineering convinced them that a smaller 6.2 with OHC & VCT could do the job and give better economy. The problem was that it was neither big enough to replace the 6.8 nor efficient enough to survive in F150. The coyote was intended to replace 4.6 and 5.4 while overwhelming response to 3.5 EB pretty much ended 6.2 in F150. Had engineers just done a 7.3 Godzilla in 2005, things would have turned out a lot different.

 

Go back another ten years to a time when ford convinced itself that FWD + iron block V8 was the future, this is what happens when trying to copy dumb ideas from GM. Sure Ford made the mods work but it created a lot of technical problems that would have been avoided in the F  truck engines….

(Just do a new era 302/351 Windsor with OHC built on the MOD/SBC 9” deck height, just upgrade 429 Lima)

Edited April 27, 2022 by jpd80

[Stray Kat]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The context at the time was that the Ford brass wanted  to replace the 6.8 V10 with a large push rod V8, engineering convinced them that a smaller 6.2 with OHC & VCT could do the job and give better economy. The problem was that it was neither big enough to replace the 6.8 nor efficient enough to survive in F150. The coyote was intended to replace 4.6 and 5.4 while overwhelming response to 3.5 EB pretty much ended 6.2 in F150. Had engineers just done a 7.3 Godzilla in 2005, things would have turned out a lot different.

 

Go back another ten years to a time when ford convinced itself that FWD + iron block V8 was the future, this is what happens when trying to copy dumb ideas from GM. Sure Ford made the mods work but it created a lot of technical problems that would have been avoided in the F  truck engines….

(Just do a new era 302/351 Windsor with OHC built on the MOD/SBC 9” deck height, just upgrade 429 Lima)

When you put it all together like that ☝️it becomes a pretty incoherent engine plan that luckily the engineers made acceptable with efforts like the Coyote and the 2.7 and 3.5 EcoBoost. 
 

 

Just to add to this last night I participated in a live online with some former Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords magazine editors. 
 

One of the comments that they made was that the SN95 Mustang was denied the 351W in the mainstream models because Ford knew the 4.6 was coming and they didn’t want to cut back from 5.8 liters all the way to 4.6. 
 

So there’s that. Camaro ate their lunch in a straight line during that deal.