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silvrsvt

Why Lincoln doesn’t need a Bronco

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I know Ford was planning on using the Rivian platform for Lincoln at one point in time, but just saw this pop up on Facebook, which is pretty neat and would aline better with Lincoln’s direction

 

https://fb.watch/6tkctY58ob/

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

I know Ford was planning on using the Rivian platform for Lincoln at one point in time, but just saw this pop up on Facebook, which is pretty neat and would aline better with Lincoln’s direction

 

https://fb.watch/6tkctY58ob/

It’s interesting to watch Ford’s plans evolve over time, I was quite surprised when Ford eased back on Rivian 

but I guess that refinement of the plan drilled down on what buyers want in the present.

 

I hope they find a way to have as many electric vehicles as possible.
 

Would Ford consider a Lightning based Lincoln LT?

Edited by jpd80

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36 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

I hope they find a way to have as many electric vehicles as possible.

 

Yes sir jpd80, this is the key to Lincoln's future success. Whether or not the brand has a Bronco like vehicle, and to what extent they use Rivian platforms are small details. The main thing is that Lincoln make the transition to an exclusively 100% electric vehicle brand as soon as possible.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir jpd80, this is the key to Lincoln's future success. Whether or not the brand has a Bronco like vehicle, and to what extent they use Rivian platforms are small details. The main thing is that Lincoln make the transition to an exclusively 100% electric vehicle brand as soon as possible.

Just a suspicion but I suspect that Rivian will be used as BEV versions of T6 vehicles,

I think it’s a good fit for Bronco, Ranger (Everest for ROW).

Ford’s GE2 to cover 3-Row Explorer/ Aviator & NG MME,

MEB for Escape/Corsair, maybe Bronco Sport.

TE2 is F150, Expedition/Navigator

 

Edited by jpd80

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4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir jpd80, this is the key to Lincoln's future success. Whether or not the brand has a Bronco like vehicle, and to what extent they use Rivian platforms are small details. The main thing is that Lincoln make the transition to an exclusively 100% electric vehicle brand as soon as possible.

Making a transition to exclusively 100% EV is a bad business model. It also goes against Ford’s model of “Something for Everyone”. EV are expensive and require massive government tax credits to customers. While diversifying energy sources for vehicles is good, completely transitioning a brand to only EV is a disaster. Just ask all of the folks in CA and NY dealing with rolling blackouts this week. They can't even charge their EV’s. EV only makes up 3% of the global vehicle market. Now imagine how much electricity will be used if that number increases to 30% That means more rolling blackouts and no way to drive to work.  

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14 minutes ago, Interstate said:

Making a transition to exclusively 100% EV is a bad business model. It also goes against Ford’s model of “Something for Everyone”. EV are expensive and require massive government tax credits to customers. While diversifying energy sources for vehicles is good, completely transitioning a brand to only EV is a disaster. Just ask all of the folks in CA and NY dealing with rolling blackouts this week. They can't even charge their EV’s. EV only makes up 3% of the global vehicle market. Now imagine how much electricity will be used if that number increases to 30% That means more rolling blackouts and no way to drive to work.  

 

Can't pump gas with the power out either. Not to mention if your having a black out, you can use your BEV to power your house....

 

EVs will have no issues in the Luxury pricing area...they will be price roughly the same as their gas counterparts. Not to mention if Ford can sell a $40K BEV in the shape of the F-150 and still make money on it, its not gonna be an issue.

 

Change is coming...and I think its going to be faster than you expect...esp with all these goverments pushing for a 2035 ban on sale of new gas powered vehicles. 

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12 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Can't pump gas with the power out either. Not to mention if your having a black out, you can use your BEV to power your house....

 

EVs will have no issues in the Luxury pricing area...they will be price roughly the same as their gas counterparts. Not to mention if Ford can sell a $40K BEV in the shape of the F-150 and still make money on it, its not gonna be an issue.

 

Change is coming...and I think its going to be faster than you expect...esp with all these goverments pushing for a 2035 ban on sale of new gas powered vehicles. 

There will always be a significant portion of the population the doesn't want an EV. I am one of them. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be built, just that changing to a 100% EV model is a bad business idea. I think Ford is doing it right as of now. Offering as many options available to customers. Let the customer decide. 

 

People who buy luxury vehicles can afford an EV, but at the same time governments are pushing for the ban all gas-powered vehicles? How will poor people buy cars if they can’t buy gas-powered vehicles? My mom once said, If Johnny jumps off a bridge, will you follow him?” This applies to us doing what other countries are doing.

 

Gas stations tend to have transfer switches to generators if the power goes out. It is required in a lot of States. But I do like the feature of using the EV as a home generator. Even though you might only be able to use it for a fridge. But then again you won’t be able to drive to work because you kept your fridge going. Also, what happens when the power goes out when your battery is already dead?

 

Last, the batteries are really bad for the environment. There is a fire in Illinois burning from a lithium fire right now. Residents had to evacuate the area. Also, the UN cautions of EV boom. 
 

My last point is why why do Americans want to increase purchasing rare earth materials from Communist dictatorships who hate us (China). The majority of the EV batteries are made in China. So until these concerns can be addressed, I will stick with my gas-powered vehicles. 

 

  https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272

 

https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/evacuations-extended-in-morris-after-industrial-fire/

 

https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/making-of-ev-batteries

 

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/china-dominates-the-global-lithium-battery-market/

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14 minutes ago, Interstate said:

There will always be a significant portion of the population the doesn't want an EV. I am one of them. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be built, just that changing to a 100% EV model is a bad business idea. I think Ford is doing it right as of now. Offering as many options available to customers. Let the customer decide. 

 

People who buy luxury vehicles can afford an EV, but at the same time governments are pushing for the ban all gas-powered vehicles? How will poor people buy cars if they can’t buy gas-powered vehicles? My mom once said, If Johnny jumps off a bridge, will you follow him?” This applies to us doing what other countries are doing.

 

Gas stations tend to have transfer switches to generators if the power goes out. It is required in a lot of States. But I do like the feature of using the EV as a home generator. Even though you might only be able to use it for a fridge. But then again you won’t be able to drive to work because you kept your fridge going. Also, what happens when the power goes out when your battery is already dead?

 

Last, the batteries are really bad for the environment. There is a fire in Illinois burning from a lithium fire right now. Residents had to evacuate the area. Also, the UN cautions of EV boom. 
 

My last point is why why do Americans want to increase purchasing rare earth materials from Communist dictatorships who hate us (China). The majority of the EV batteries are made in China. So until these concerns can be addressed, I will stick with my gas-powered vehicles. 

 

  https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272

 

https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/evacuations-extended-in-morris-after-industrial-fire/

 

https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/making-of-ev-batteries

 

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/china-dominates-the-global-lithium-battery-market/

 

The thing is that EVs are in their infancy to a point now...mostly expensive vehicles to offset R&D development into them. Just like gasoline powered vehicles where back 120+ years ago. Once an effective baseline is developed, prices will be cheaper. 

 

Prices will drop to meet demand and used gas powered vehicles will still be around for a long time...just after X date you won't be able to buy one. 

 

I've NEVER seen a generator at a gas station-too much of a fire risk. I live on the East Coast and in two different states after major hurricanes, no generators where ever used to power a gas station. 

 

Oil production is bad for the environment just like lithium mining-not to mention there are same assholes to deal with getting it out of the ground. 

You can stick what with you want to do, but technology will pass you by if you do so.

The conversion over to EVs is going to be like cooking a Frog in boiling water...won't even notice it til you hit the tipping point.

 

Not to mention alot can happen in the next 15 years policially, but Auto manufactures are pointed in that direction because they are planning on products that won't be out for another 5 years or so due to the development time it takes. They like EV's because they are much more similper to build then an ICE powered product and have less parts. That is a plus for them on the manufacturing side. 

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7 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The thing is that EVs are in their infancy to a point now...mostly expensive vehicles to offset R&D development into them. Just like gasoline powered vehicles where back 120+ years ago. Once an effective baseline is developed, prices will be cheaper. 

 

Prices will drop to meet demand and used gas powered vehicles will still be around for a long time...just after X date you won't be able to buy one. 

 

I've NEVER seen a generator at a gas station-too much of a fire risk. I live on the East Coast and in two different states after major hurricanes, no generators where ever used to power a gas station. 

 

Oil production is bad for the environment just like lithium mining-not to mention there are same assholes to deal with getting it out of the ground. 

You can stick what with you want to do, but technology will pass you by if you do so.

The conversion over to EVs is going to be like cooking a Frog in boiling water...won't even notice it til you hit the tipping point.

 

Not to mention alot can happen in the next 15 years policially, but Auto manufactures are pointed in that direction because they are planning on products that won't be out for another 5 years or so due to the development time it takes. They like EV's because they are much more similper to build then an ICE powered product and have less parts. That is a plus for them on the manufacturing side. 


Generator required at gas stations: 

https://www.simplemost.com/gas-stations-pump-without-electricity/
 

As of last year America was the #1 producer of oil. This year we aren’t because of politics. And we did that with the lowest emissions of any industrialized nation. Environmental alarmism is a cult. Don’t believe everything they tell you. 
 

As I stated in my first post, EV is good for people to have options. Just not 100% EV.

 

EV’s aren’t in their infancy. They’ve been around for over 100 years. It’s just that nobody liked them and they were unpractical. Kind of like today. The Prius came out in1996. That’s a long time ago as well. And they are still only 3% of the market after 25 years.  
 

When unsold EV’s are sitting in lots and dealers are handing out incentives to get rid of them. Then car manufacturers will change their model again. 
 

The technology for EV is better, however, in 25 years there are still a lot of problems. Also, they’ve been mainstream for 25 years and the price hasn’t gone down much.

 

Maybe technology will get better. But at the pace they are going, I don’t think I will be around before they are priced moderately (without a Gov subsidies) and they find solutions to the current problems. 

 

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8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Just a suspicion but I suspect that Rivian will be used as BEV versions of T6 vehicles,

I think it’s a good fit for Bronco, Ranger (Everest for ROW).

Ford’s GE2 to cover 3-Row Explorer/ Aviator & NG MME,

MEB for Escape/Corsair, maybe Bronco Sport.

TE2 is F150, Expedition/Navigator

 

JPD, do you think there's any possibility that that TE2 will be scalable (ala VW's MEB) and therefore could be sized to fit the needs of Bronco/Ranger (and maybe Everest)? I could see Ford wanting to stick with F150 attributes (not sure if that includes a true frame or not) in vehicles like Bronco and Ranger.

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3 hours ago, Interstate said:


Generator required at gas stations: 

https://www.simplemost.com/gas-stations-pump-without-electricity/

 

EV’s aren’t in their infancy. They’ve been around for over 100 years. It’s just that nobody liked them and they were unpractical. Kind of like today. The Prius came out in1996. That’s a long time ago as well. And they are still only 3% of the market after 25 years.  

 

 

Florida is an exception...it gets hit multiple times by hurricanes...after Irma and Sandy hit Maryland and NJ respectively, no gas stations where open in areas due to lack of electricity. 

 

The Prius is a freaking hybrid, not an electric car. More and more manufactures are adding hybrids to their lineup to meet government mandated fuel economy standards.

 

The biggest reason why EVs where not practical was range issues. EVs today have roughly the same range per charge as filling a tank and the added advantage of being charged at home, instead of stopping at a gas station.

The other issue is that your purely looking at this as a US centric thing, when Auto manufactures are Global players

FT_21.05.21_ElectricVehicles_1.png?w=640

 

 

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8 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Can't pump gas with the power out either. Not to mention if your having a black out, you can use your BEV to power your house....

 

 

 

That is assuming the battery was charged. ;)

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Posted (edited)

The Lithium for Chinese produced batteries comes mostly from Australia,

a country that’s being punished by China for daring to ask for an independent

inquiry into the origins of covid 19.

 

America co do something really smart and buy up more Aussie lithium for itself

and restrict chinas resources…..

Edited by jpd80

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Talking about the thread topic:   Why Lincoln NEED a Bronco?  To fight Land Rover.  Quit Luxury for outdoors? There are the Land Rover Discovery or Defender or Range Rover Sport , with a selling price from 50 to 100 K $.  Why Lincoln will pass of this profitable market, having the best 4x4 off road vehicle in the corporate house, the Bronco? 
 

Can’t you imagine a truck as luxurious and “quiet” as the Navigator, but with extreme off road capabilities as the Bronco?  I can do it. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, falconlover 1 said:

Talking about the thread topic:   Why Lincoln NEED a Bronco?  To fight Land Rover.  Quit Luxury for outdoors? There are the Land Rover Discovery or Defender or Range Rover Sport , with a selling price from 50 to 100 K $.  Why Lincoln will pass of this profitable market, having the best 4x4 off road vehicle in the corporate house, the Bronco? 
 

Can’t you imagine a truck as luxurious and “quiet” as the Navigator, but with extreme off road capabilities as the Bronco?  I can do it. 

Yes, I can imagine it but there’s  is no T6 based Lincoln planned because Lincoln is not looking to

copy all things Land Rover. If it was, the short wheelbase CD6 Nautilus would not have been canned

I disagree with the cancellation but understand the economic decision behind it.

Edited by jpd80

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, falconlover 1 said:

Talking about the thread topic:   Why Lincoln NEED a Bronco?  To fight Land Rover.  Quit Luxury for outdoors? There are the Land Rover Discovery or Defender or Range Rover Sport , with a selling price from 50 to 100 K $.  Why Lincoln will pass of this profitable market, having the best 4x4 off road vehicle in the corporate house, the Bronco? 
 

Can’t you imagine a truck as luxurious and “quiet” as the Navigator, but with extreme off road capabilities as the Bronco?  I can do it. 

 

Good points falconlover 1 sir. What do you think about Ford creating an official Bronco sub-brand, with entry level, mid level, and high end, all electric off road vehicles that compete with Land Rover and Hummer? I guess the last one could take the place of a Lincoln.

Edited by rperez817

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

JPD, do you think there's any possibility that that TE2 will be scalable (ala VW's MEB) and therefore could be sized to fit the needs of Bronco/Ranger (and maybe Everest)? I could see Ford wanting to stick with F150 attributes (not sure if that includes a true frame or not) in vehicles like Bronco and Ranger.

Sorry Harley Lover, I missed your post.

Short answer is that I believe that TE2 will be fixed width and variable wheelbase for F150, Expedition and Navigator SUVs. GE2 mid sized platform will be more scalable, having to cover 3-row Explorer/Aviator and the narrower  NG Mustang Mach E. The other one to watch is Rivian, I suspect Bronco and Ranger BEVs but maybe they circle back on that Lincoln but as a pickup?

Edited by jpd80

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We don't know enough about TE2 but I can't imagine why Ford will design TE2 with fixed width. That doesn't make any sense. It's most likely designed to work with several different perimeter frame designs so it can be implemented with all existing and future body on frame vehicles.

 

The idea of using Rivian platform is to get another EV to market without having to invest in an dedicated production site. Ford is going to need to invest in new production site for Ranger EV anyway (one for North America and one for rest of the world) so it points to Ford developing it in house.

 

Whatever Ford ends up sourcing from Rivian, it will be a relatively low volume product, not a mainstream high volume product like the eventual Ranger EV. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Whatever Ford ends up sourcing from Rivian, it will be a relatively low volume product

 

Perhaps a Lincoln Land Rover competitor?

Edited by Harley Lover

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Perhaps a Lincoln Land Rover competitor?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of Range Rover Velar or Porsche Macan. A rugged offroader doesn't quite mesh with the Quiet Glide brand attribute for Lincoln.

 

Take a look at Lincoln's line up and you will notice a hole... it is missing a midsize CUV coupe.

 

Edited by bzcat

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26 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

I was thinking more along the lines of Range Rover Velar or Porsche Macan. A rugged offroader doesn't quite mesh with the Quite Glide brand attribute for Lincoln.

 

Take a look at Lincoln's line up and you will notice a hole... it is missing a midsize CUV coupe.

 

 

Agree, makes sense, particularly given the probable low volume nature of the product.

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10 hours ago, bzcat said:

We don't know enough about TE2 but I can't imagine why Ford will design TE2 with fixed width. That doesn't make any sense. It's most likely designed to work with several different perimeter frame designs so it can be implemented with all existing and future body on frame vehicles.

As you get larger with vehicles, the need to vary the width becomes less important

as it’s  hard to scale frames versus developing purpose built mid size vs full size.

It actually add significant cost to redesigning a different front crash protection zone

which is is usually up to to 70% of development cost.

 

GE2 has a big role to play with mid sized vehicles but it can’t cover everything and

thats where Rivian comes in……..

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On 7/1/2021 at 2:48 PM, Interstate said:


Generator required at gas stations: 

https://www.simplemost.com/gas-stations-pump-without-electricity/
 

As of last year America was the #1 producer of oil. This year we aren’t because of politics. And we did that with the lowest emissions of any industrialized nation. Environmental alarmism is a cult. Don’t believe everything they tell you. 
 

As I stated in my first post, EV is good for people to have options. Just not 100% EV.

 

EV’s aren’t in their infancy. They’ve been around for over 100 years. It’s just that nobody liked them and they were unpractical. Kind of like today. The Prius came out in1996. That’s a long time ago as well. And they are still only 3% of the market after 25 years.  
 

When unsold EV’s are sitting in lots and dealers are handing out incentives to get rid of them. Then car manufacturers will change their model again. 
 

The technology for EV is better, however, in 25 years there are still a lot of problems. Also, they’ve been mainstream for 25 years and the price hasn’t gone down much.

 

Maybe technology will get better. But at the pace they are going, I don’t think I will be around before they are priced moderately (without a Gov subsidies) and they find solutions to the current problems. 

 

 

You are forgetting CA, FL, and NY. BEVs are big sellers in these 3 big states with over 80 million population combined. Here in FL, Tesla is a common sight along with hybrids. And batteries are always getting better. Smaller and more powerful. The battery in my hybrid is the size of a brief case and easily fits under rear seat meaning little loss of cargo volume. And the hp on my hybrid is greater than base Escape turbo and smoother to boot with almost twice the fuel economy. Maverick is starting movement of base engine being hybrid.

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On 7/1/2021 at 12:06 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

Can't pump gas with the power out either. Not to mention if your having a black out, you can use your BEV to power your house....

 

 

The point is, if the grid can’t handle electrical demand with basically 0% electric cars, what will keep it from collapsing when electric cars are a significant % of the national fleet?

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56 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

The point is, if the grid can’t handle electrical demand with basically 0% electric cars, what will keep it from collapsing when electric cars are a significant % of the national fleet?

 

In CA, many Model S and X owners have polarized their house and contribute more energy to the grid than they take out. Yeah, BEV owners seem to be mostly high income earners so far anyway. Personally, I would only buy a BEV if my house had solar panels. 

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