7.3 liter Gas option verse 6.7 liter PSD

[Tncdrew]

On 7/16/2021 at 10:13 AM, rsmith2786 said:

For me there were several reasons.

 

One is cost for sure.  The initial cost, the ongoing planned maintenance costs being higher, and the unplanned maintenance costs.  Weekly I see posts on the forums or Facebook group about a CP4 failure, fuel filters cracking, DEF/DPF issues, etc.  Even a couple about connecting rod failures.  These can quickly costs several thousand for a single repair.  For the 7.3 the only regular thing I hear is issues with a $10 spark plug wire.  It isn't like I can't afford the diesel, it just doesn't feel like the best use of my savings - I refuse to finance vehicles.

 

The second is the complexity.  These new diesels are just so darn complex to meet the emissions requirements today.  I don't believe they have the long-term longevity advantage anymore.  They're also impossible for an average person to work on.  I like to do all of my own maintenance and visit the dealer very very infrequently.  I can plug in a normal scan tool and do pretty much any repair on a 7.3.  With the diesel you really need to pull the cab for anything but basic issues and there are so many specialized tools required.  That doesn't sound fun and I don't have a two post lift installed yet.

 

If you need the diesel you need the diesel.  There's no doubt that is has some performance advantages.  If you don't really need it, it feels like a whole lot of cost and risk for bragging rights.  If I could get a 2003-2005 era 5.9 Cummins common rail in the truck that'd be a different story.  I think that was probably the pinnacle for diesel engines in light/medium duty trucks.

 

The last part for me just relates to my job.  I'm an engineering manager at an industrial engine company.  I don't want to bring my work problems home with me.  A nice simple pushrod gas engine gives me that warm fuzzy feeling I want in my daily driver.

Outstanding write-up! I agree with every point made, and specifically the last sentence in your first paragraph! 

A wise man once said, "Debt is dumb, cash is king!" 

[theoldwizard1]

On 7/19/2021 at 1:59 PM, IUEC135ELEVATOR said:

Watched on YouTube where these guys test trucks for time uphill and brake applications down Ikes pass the gauntlet ( pretty good videos in my opinion)

 

Their F350 drw 30k 5 brake applications.

 

F250 4.30 srw 7.3 18k 9 brake applications.

That COULD simply be because of dual rear wheels vs single rear wheel.  Duals have more rolling resistance.

[Flying68]

4 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

That COULD simply be because of dual rear wheels vs single rear wheel.  Duals have more rolling resistance.

 

They do, but not enough to have any real affect on braking.  The bigger difference is the engine braking in the F350.  Ford still has issues programming the transmission to kickdown descending to get more gas engine braking.  They also do not use cruise control which might make a difference.  I have noticed in the mountains in my Expedition that when I have cruise on it does pretty good maintaining speed by shifting.  Without cruise it would kickdown when I would hit the brakes but would start to creep back up.  I tend to use manual shifting going downhill on the passes just because it is easier that way, but TFL purposely avoids doing that in order to test what the truck will do, not necessarily what the driver will do.  I think in the future they are going to have to add a cruise control on test as things get more automated.

[akirby]

Why wouldn’t they manually downshift if the truck has that capability?

[road turtle]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Why wouldn’t they manually downshift if the truck has that capability?

Guess I don't understand why people don't let the vehicle manage the gears.  I have a F150 with 10 speed trans.  While I didn't travel out west, the hills going from NC through TN, cruise control kept the speed locked in, up and down hills.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, road turtle said:

Guess I don't understand why people don't let the vehicle manage the gears.  I have a F150 with 10 speed trans.  While I didn't travel out west, the hills going from NC through TN, cruise control kept the speed locked in, up and down hills.

Because you can’t always use cruise control and sometimes you don’t want the computer shifting for you.  E.g. descending a mountain at 25 mph or downshifting just before you pass someone so you don’t have to wait for it to kick down on its own.

 

Generally speaking though it shifts fine by itself under most circumstances.

[Robin Hood]

14 hours ago, road turtle said:

Guess I don't understand why people don't let the vehicle manage the gears.  I have a F150 with 10 speed trans.  While I didn't travel out west, the hills going from NC through TN, cruise control kept the speed locked in, up and down hills.

 

CC control and towing on hills is not always desirable and sometimes dangerous.

[000]

17 hours ago, road turtle said:

Guess I don't understand why people don't let the vehicle manage the gears.  I have a F150 with 10 speed trans.  While I didn't travel out west, the hills going from NC through TN, cruise control kept the speed locked in, up and down hills.

 

Because the truck can not see what you can, and has no idea what your needs are beyond what you tell it with your right foot. It gets even more involved with super duty size loads behind compared to an empty F150.  It works better to drive it rather than leave it to try and figure it out,  reactive responses vs proactive inputs. 

[IUEC135ELEVATOR]

On 7/23/2021 at 9:25 PM, road turtle said:

Guess I don't understand why people don't let the vehicle manage the gears.  I have a F150 with 10 speed trans.  While I didn't travel out west, the hills going from NC through TN, cruise control kept the speed locked in, up and down hills.

Well.....I don't because because transmissions are expensive....

 

Brakes are cheap.

 

Maybe I am a worry wort but it's logical to me

[Flying68]

On 7/23/2021 at 2:57 PM, akirby said:

Why wouldn’t they manually downshift if the truck has that capability?

Their test is to try to see what kind of logic each manufacturer implements within the tow/haul mode. The logic in the diesels has improved, especially with the selectable engine braking, but it seems the gas models haven't quite gotten the logic perfected yet.

[Flying68]

2 hours ago, IUEC135ELEVATOR said:

Well.....I don't because because transmissions are expensive....

 

Brakes are cheap.

 

Maybe I am a worry wort but it's logical to me

Brakes are cheap, but will also fail more often coming downhill. Towing a trailer in the mountains trying to use only your brakes would be hazardous. 

[IUEC135ELEVATOR]

8 hours ago, Flying68 said:

Brakes are cheap, but will also fail more often coming downhill. Towing a trailer in the mountains trying to use only your brakes would be hazardous. 

Agreed...downshifting and letting the engine/tans is a must sometimes. Guess I really was not thinking when I made that comment, but I do try to use brakes more than winding engine out on a 7%.

 

You know that guy in the pickup and trailer that is putzing down the mountain at slug speed in the right hand lane behind the 18 wheelers...That's me?

 

ITS GREAT...! The wife mutes her version of backseat auto drive collision alert commenting and the kids.....well.....that don't care or even realize anyway because their noses buried in those darn tablets.?

Edited July 25, 2021 by IUEC135ELEVATOR

[road turtle]

18 hours ago, Mountain Super Duty said:

 

Because the truck can not see what you can, and has no idea what your needs are beyond what you tell it with your right foot. It gets even more involved with super duty size loads behind compared to an empty F150.  It works better to drive it rather than leave it to try and figure it out,  reactive responses vs proactive inputs. 

Towing a 5k trailer isn't exactly empty.  Engine/trans calibration did a great job holding speeds up and down hills.  at about 1mph drift from set speed, vehicle would start taking action.  At 2mph off set speed, the action became more aggressive.

 

WRT to "burning up a transmission", how?  Going down hill isn't going to do much to heat up a transmission.  Uphill you may have an argument, but I know the OEM's do a lot of vehicle testing, including at max tow ratings.

[000]

46 minutes ago, road turtle said:

Towing a 5k trailer isn't exactly empty.  Engine/trans calibration did a great job holding speeds up and down hills.  at about 1mph drift from set speed, vehicle would start taking action.  At 2mph off set speed, the action became more aggressive.

 

WRT to "burning up a transmission", how?  Going down hill isn't going to do much to heat up a transmission.  Uphill you may have an argument, but I know the OEM's do a lot of vehicle testing, including at max tow ratings.

 

Well your post didn't mention anything about towing, just driving your F150 in the hills... Matter of preference I guess. I do not abdicate my driving to computers any more than I am absolutely forced to. I have never found them to be better at driving.

 

Agree with you on damaging the transmission. I actually live in some pretty big mountains and use the trans to slow the truck loaded and unloaded daily without any consequence. I think you would be crazy to try and do it all with the service brakes. I can smell those guys coming off the mountain.

[Robin Hood]

Does the truck apply the brakes to control the speed with CC like it does with Adaptive CC? I would not want the truck to apply or drag the brakes in a downhill situation without me knowing about it. I've always wondered if this triggers the brake lights as well? I would assume it does.

 

Seeing other trucks on downhill grades with their brake lights shining a large percentage of the time, just makes me shake my head. If you are going to own the truck and tow, you should probably learn to drive it safely. Using your brakes only to slow the truck under load on a long downhill is unsafe to you and the other vehicals on the road. Downshifting in these SD is not going to hurt the trans. In fact keeping a constant load on it, is probably better for it.

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Robin Hood

[road turtle]

The other factor is trailer brakes.  While truck brakes don't like long periods of engagement, trailer DRUM brakes are worse.  I'm paying to have disc brakes added to my trailer.

[Robin Hood]

On 7/25/2021 at 3:43 PM, road turtle said:

The other factor is trailer brakes.  While truck brakes don't like long periods of engagement, trailer DRUM brakes are worse.  I'm paying to have disc brakes added to my trailer.

 

Great point! It has crossed my mind to upgrade to disc brakes as well.

[Robin Hood]

On 7/25/2021 at 4:06 AM, IUEC135ELEVATOR said:

Agreed...downshifting and letting the engine/tans is a must sometimes. Guess I really was not thinking when I made that comment, but I do try to use brakes more than winding engine out on a 7%.

 

You know that guy in the pickup and trailer that is putzing down the mountain at slug speed in the right hand lane behind the 18 wheelers...That's me?

 

ITS GREAT...! The wife mutes her version of backseat auto drive collision alert commenting and the kids.....well.....that don't care or even realize anyway because their noses buried in those darn tablets.?

 

Please do a little research on this. These trucks are designed to slow the vehicle and load with the motor and trans. The brakes alone will not live up to the task. You are not going to hurt the motor or trans by driving the truck properly and it will be a hell of a lot safer for you and your family!

[IUEC135ELEVATOR]

Thank you for your advice

[CCS103]

I selected the 7.6 gas engine based on the care and feeding costs with a diesel. I understand that the mileage is better with the diesel but,not that much better, the other costs and initial cost just doesn't make sense. I can buy a lot of gas for $9000.00. Plus the towing ability is almost a push. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by CCS103

[ardvark666]

The 7.3 provides plenty of power and there is no cost savings at all with diesel any more. I tow a 5th wheel and unless I move to one that’s over 16-17k, I’m sticking with gas. Diesel is far too expensive at this point. The 7.3 is a great option for people who want performance that isn’t going to crush their wallet. 

[000]

1 hour ago, ardvark666 said:

The 7.3 provides plenty of power and there is no cost savings at all with diesel any more. I tow a 5th wheel and unless I move to one that’s over 16-17k, I’m sticking with gas. Diesel is far too expensive at this point. The 7.3 is a great option for people who want performance that isn’t going to crush their wallet. 

 

For sure... Like I keep saying, the diesel is a luxury item with the advent of the 7.3. Almost nobody "needs" the diesel, it is more expensive up front and more expensive to run. 

[chadstickpoindexter]

23 hours ago, CCS103 said:

I selected the 7.6 gas engine based on the care and feeding costs with a diesel. I understand that the mileage is better with the diesel but,not that much better, the other costs and initial cost just doesn't make sense. I can buy a lot of gas for $9000.00. Plus the towing ability is almost a push. 

I know it varies but I personally got 11-12 mpg towing my camper with a diesel. I have seen reports of an average of 7 mpg on the. 7.3 (and lower in the mountains). I’d personally say that this is much better… besides this, (and maybe more important to me) I like being able to go longer distances between fill ups, and the diesel does this easily over the gas. In our Pathfinder I had to look for a gas pump every 150 miles… I’m tired of never passing up a pump! Lol ! So, the diesel to me does make sense… I get it though, there are pros and cons to each option, neither is perfect. 

[Oldfordguy]

I have a 7.3 F250 . Pulling my fifth wheel on the interstate I get about 7 miles per gal. I like the truck ok but I’m trading it in for the 2022 F 350 6.7.I am also looking forward to not hunting gas stations every 200 miles.One of the other reasons I like the diesel is you can fuel at most truck stops when you are pulling a fifth wheel or trailer.That is A big advantage in this day and age as people constantly try to cut me off when I fuel up in a normal gas station with the 7.3. We all have our preferences, and for me towing my Fifth wheel 5- 6 months a year I prefer the 6.7.

[Zumari]

This is an interesting thread to read, and I'm glad I read it. 

 

I've asked for XPlan pricing on a 2022 with the 7.3. Haven't heard back yet. I already sent them a PDF of the build sheet. The dealer wants me to come in and place an order but I haven't decided between a DRW and SRW. They're playing games and I know it. It's not a big deal to me. I'm not in a rush. I'll order one sooner or later.
 

I ran the numbers on the cost of the diesel and I wouldn't break even on the cost of fuel/maintenance for 6-7 years. Until I read this thread, I had started to consider the diesel. If I bought it, it wouldn't be because I need it, just because it would be nice to not slow down anywhere pulling a trailer. And, the exhaust brake is nice. 

But now that I've read thru this, I'm settled on getting the 7.3. If I ever decide to spend money for additional power and torque, I'll put on a supercharger but after the warranty is up.

 

To be specific and answer the OP question: "I assume cost plays a factor, but what are the other reasons?"
 

To be honest, other than cost, I can only think of one: throttle lag.

Now that I've owned a diesel (a Fiat Oui Oui 3500 HO DRW - manufacture is pronounced Fiat wee-wee), it's nice but the throttle lag is horrible. It's like mailing a letter to someplace in Louisiana that doesn't have phones yet. It'll get there but you'll have to wait a long time. I still have my 2005 F350 V10 and when I drive it, it's like driving a sports car in comparison. 0-40 around town is great. I don't race it but it's nice when you apply the throttle, something happens. With "La Puta" (the 3500 is a HO built in Mexico, thus the name), I've spooked my wife a few times pulling the trailer from a stop on left turns. She'll tell me "it's clear" and 3 seconds later she's wondering what's happening while we creep into the intersection. It's horrible. So, when read the comments here, I gave the 7.3 the edge.

 

Other than that and no exhaust brake, every other reason is cost.

Do I need the diesel? No.

 

The 5th wheel loaded is less than 10,000 and it's not tall, so I'm not towing a huge sail. It's just really long: 37'. It's similar to a horse trailer with living quarters. But it has a garage in the rear large enough for a small open wheel race car. The other trailer is a car hauler I can put over 10,000 lbs inside but I'm not interested in hauling 15,000+ lbs with a 32 bumper pull trailer. So, the max weight I've towed was about 11,000 lbs (total including trailer), with 1,300 lbs on the tongue. With most of the heaviest stuff over the three axles, it has been very stable. Towing it empty in high side winds wasn't fun though. LOL. Thus, the reason why I'm debating between a DRW and SRW. I've driven the DRW for 15 years and love it. Parking it and getting it around town is no big deal. My wife drives the F350 a few times a week when she takes the dogs on hikes and loves it. Excluding the DRW/SRW topic, if I can tow fine with a 15 year old V10, a new 7.3 with a 10 speed should be much better. Would I be able to accelerate up a steep grade, like I can with the torque of the diesel? No. Will I need to use the brakes more when decending grades like Teton Pass? Yes. But I used to drive up and down steep grades with the V10. And, I installed 6 piston calipers on the front and 3 piston on the rear on the F350. So, Monarch Pass wasn't a big deal. Neither was Pike's peak. The slow cars in front of me with the problem. LOL. For fun, I might put disk brakes on the 5th wheel. It doesn't make braking a non-issue. It just makes it less of an issue.

 

So, for me it's really a cost issue. I can afford the diesel but why spend the additional $10k, plus the oil changes, fuel filter changes, etc. when I'm only going to tow 10% of the time I drive it? I can spend that money on something else, or not spend it.
 

Also, after owning several V10's, I learned that you can work them really hard and they're fine. Is the 7.3 proven like the V10? Not yet but I haven't heard of any major problems (yet). And the engine builders are having fun with 1000+ hp engines. 600 hp is easy. Maybe a supercharger will be proven somewhat reliable in a few years. If not, there's always the big easy button option: just leaving it stock.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Zumari
Clarified towed weight of bumper pull trailer