kyle Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 20 hours ago, dds010 said: lik I said, I know the Navi is a wonderful product, I just want to see it continue to LEAD, not have the same debacle that it had from basically 15 straight years They lost that leadership position when GM dropped their new full size SUV's.....the Escalade is going for $20k over sticker and now you have the new body on frame Jeep Grand Wagoneer jumping into the fray. I like the redone rear end, did not notice the front end changes and uninspired by the upgraded interior. This is probably in 3rd place now when you look at top end SUV's and you could even place it 4th with the Escalade, Denali, Grand Wagoneer better options....imo... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 2 hours ago, kyle said: They lost that leadership position when GM dropped their new full size SUV's.....the Escalade is going for $20k over sticker and now you have the new body on frame Jeep Grand Wagoneer jumping into the fray. I like the redone rear end, did not notice the front end changes and uninspired by the upgraded interior. This is probably in 3rd place now when you look at top end SUV's and you could even place it 4th with the Escalade, Denali, Grand Wagoneer better options....imo... GM has always been the leader from a sales perspective. I don’t really understand why but it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, akirby said: GM has always been the leader from a sales perspective. I don’t really understand why but it is. Great product and great reputation going back 85 years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: Great product and great reputation going back 85 years. Yes...those Corvairs, Vegas and Citations were really great...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 2 hours ago, akirby said: GM has always been the leader from a sales perspective. I don’t really understand why but it is. It's a shame Ford let Navigator and to a lesser extent Expy rot on the vine for as long as they did, losing headway they had made in the market years ago. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 1 hour ago, twintornados said: Yes...those Corvairs, Vegas and Citations were really great...? I think akirby was referring to GM's sales leadership for full size BOF SUVs, not sales leadership for cars/trucks overall. GM's full size BOF SUVs have been consistently good products and one of them, Chevrolet Suburban, is the longest continuously used automotive nameplate in the U.S. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: GM's full size BOF SUVs have been consistently good products You’ve obviously never been in a pre 2014 Suburban or Yukon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, akirby said: You’ve obviously never been in a pre 2014 Suburban or Yukon. No sir, I've experienced multiple GMT 930, GMT 830, and GMT 410/425 Suburbans, Tahoes, and Escalades over the years, though I've never owned one myself. These SUVs were very competitive with BOF full size SUVs from other manufacturers of the same vintage. Their reputation has been rock solid for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dlcorbett Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, akirby said: You’ve obviously never been in a pre 2014 Suburban or Yukon. I think it was more marketing, gm pushed the 2nd gen units to different markets, tahoe/sub for everyman, denali to women, escalade to urbanites. Ford tried this tactic for different types of vehicles but not for the fs suvs. It was the third gen that rele pushed gm forward, not because of the product, but because of their appearance. They looked great, compared to ford and esp lincoln. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SzymekSmack Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 21 hours ago, rmc523 said: Borg claims there's a new Expy/Navi coming for 2024 AND some sort of EV Navigator for 2026. Imagine the size of the battery and weight in an EV Navigator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dlcorbett Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, rperez817 said: No sir, I've experienced multiple GMT 930, GMT 830, and GMT 410/425 Suburbans, Tahoes, and Escalades over the years, though I've never owned one myself. These SUVs were very competitive with BOF full size SUVs from other manufacturers of the same vintage. Their reputation has been rock solid for decades. If I had to rank the gm products by overall goodness in comparison to its peers: 1. Gen 5 (2021+) - best effort pushed by gm, only ford(jeep) Is competitive 2. Gen 2 (00 - 06) - made gm a benchmark for class 3. Gen 3 (07 - 14) - pushed gm to stratosphere, but products holistically were not strong in their respective class 4. Gen 1 (90 - 99) - the std until expy and navi did it way better 5. Gen 4 (15 - 20) - phoned in, nuff said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dlcorbett Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, SzymekSmack said: Imagine the size of the battery and weight in an EV Navigator. Def pushing 6500 easy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02MustangGT Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 (edited) 22 hours ago, akirby said: You’ve obviously never been in a pre 2014 Suburban or Yukon. Regarding the “refresh” for the 2022 Navigator….The front end design is just ok in my opinion, our 2020 Nav looks better. I do like the slimmed down tail light treatment. Interior? I certainly appreciate the larger center display and the optional rear seat massage/cooling. Overall, the Nav is already one of best looking full size SUV’s inside and out and the refresh should carry that forward. Edited August 21, 2021 by silvrsvt taunting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dds010 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 On 8/19/2021 at 8:19 PM, Dlcorbett said: That's understandable. It's a shame, I think it was less fords effort and more consumer perception. For all intents and purposes, from 1998 to 2006, the nav was one of the better suv products. But seeing the escalade run away with sales after 2003 after making a vastly superior product (albeit powertrain update) probably shifted their focus alot on it. Now lincoln finally tried and has become the new benchmark, they offer these features on the smaller aviator and others, they could have found a way to add them to the flagship. GM didn’t really make a vastly superior product though. The just supplied a product that was better tailored to the American full-size demographic. Caddy made a Big Brash Powerful SUV when they introduced the art and science Escalade, and that’s exactly what American consumers want. This “subdued” and “quiet luxury” is NOT really an American philosophy. Caddy made a sharp edged big grilled 345HP SUV and EVERYONE, ESP the influential, ate it up: HOWEVER IT WAS AT NO POINT IN TIME A BETTER SUV, period. The Navi has always had better capabilities, better flexibility, better suspension, more space ETC, BUT THATS NOT WHAT PEOPLE BUY full size BoF SUVs. The driving force is style style power power, and for let the Navi rot on the vine for 15years before they decided to do anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dds010 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 On 8/20/2021 at 2:16 PM, kyle said: They lost that leadership position when GM dropped their new full size SUV's.....the Escalade is going for $20k over sticker and now you have the new body on frame Jeep Grand Wagoneer jumping into the fray. I like the redone rear end, did not notice the front end changes and uninspired by the upgraded interior. This is probably in 3rd place now when you look at top end SUV's and you could even place it 4th with the Escalade, Denali, Grand Wagoneer better options....imo... The Grand Wagoneer I sorta different product and it’s yet to be seen what the market response will be to it. The exterior styling is HORRIBLE, but the interior does look good. The Escalade again delivered EXACTLY what it demo was looking for BIG BRASH STYLING INSIDE AND OUT. Big super imposing grille and long Led strip command the front end. which is why I say that they should have just made the grille outright bigger. Move the plastic horseshoe at the bottom to where the air dam is and let that huge opening command the front end. Whether ppl want to admit it or not, THIS is what Americans love. IN YOUR FACE ATTENTION GRABBING DESIGNS. on the INSIDE, they DEF should have made the digital cluster expand outwards on both sides so that It kinda flowed into the new 13.2inch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 Is it possible that the powerboost hybrid isn't available this year just due to constrains due to COVID and prioritizing them for the F-150 for now? I know Ford is infamous in the past for coming out with updated engines a year after a refresh in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 27 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Is it possible that the powerboost hybrid isn't available this year just due to constrains due to COVID and prioritizing them for the F-150 for now? I know Ford is infamous in the past for coming out with updated engines a year after a refresh in the past. I think you got it.....limits on hybrid supply chain. Probably why Maverick hybrid will be in short supply. Probably why Escape hybrid is only 20% of production even though Ford could sell many more. Ford has never had a strong supply chain for hybrid components. Toyota seems to dominate there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: Ford has never had a strong supply chain for hybrid components. Toyota seems to dominate there. Yes sir FordBuyer. This is very unfortunate, because the best versions currently available for Aviator, Corsair, F-150, Maverick, and Escape have a hybrid powertrain. Hopefully Ford will get its supply chain issues resolved soon. Edited August 23, 2021 by rperez817 Aviator, not Navigator (thanks sullynd) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Yes sir FordBuyer. This is very unfortunate, because the best versions of Navigator, F-150, Maverick, and Escape have a hybrid powertrain. Hopefully Ford will get its supply chain issues resolved soon. Navigator hybrid? Do you mean Aviator? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 31 minutes ago, sullynd said: Navigator hybrid? Do you mean Aviator? Thanks sullynd sir for catching the mistake, you are correct that Aviator is what I meant. I edited the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dds010 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Is it possible that the powerboost hybrid isn't available this year just due to constrains due to COVID and prioritizing them for the F-150 for now? I know Ford is infamous in the past for coming out with updated engines a year after a refresh in the past. Yeah, hopefully another power train option will be introduced/announced close to job 1. When I saw the 3.5 lose 10hp, I immediately suspected Ford was sandbagging the 3.5 to give the powerboost option a secure lead in HP and TQ considering the powerboost is already 430HP in F-150, I’d suspect they want the Navi at near 500HP . Edited August 24, 2021 by dds010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 13 hours ago, dds010 said: Yeah, hopefully another power train option will be introduced/announced close to job 1. When I saw the 3.5 lose 10hp, I immediately suspected Ford was sandbagging the 3.5 to give the powerboost option a secure lead in HP and TQ considering the powerboost is already 430HP in F-150, I’d suspect they want the Navi at near 500HP . With the Aviator GT just under 500hp, I would expect a similar or better power number for the flagship Navigator. There was speculation about a high output 3.5L powerboost, but I haven’t seen anything on it lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 57 minutes ago, slemke said: With the Aviator GT just under 500hp, I would expect a similar or better power number for the flagship Navigator. There was speculation about a high output 3.5L powerboost, but I haven’t seen anything on it lately. Borg is saying over on GMI that there is no PowerBoost scheduled for the Navigator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dlcorbett Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Trader 10 said: Borg is saying over on GMI that there is no PowerBoost scheduled for the Navigator. Such a missed opportunity to not offer this on nav or expy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 9 hours ago, Dlcorbett said: Such a missed opportunity to not offer this on nav or expy. Seems that way but they must have good reasons for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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