Rivian's IPO is valued at $80Billion

[rperez817]

19 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Did this report (which you didn't link to) explain what was supposedly so terrible about BEV service visits?  Or was it just they were inconvenient even though far less often than a regular/ICE service visit?

 

Sorry about the missing link rmc523, I updated the post with the link. The study is J.D. Power Customer Service Index 2021. 2021 Customer Service Index (CSI) Study | J.D. Power (jdpower.com)

 

A reason that J.D. Power mentioned for lower dealer service department satisfaction among BEV owners is the much higher frequency of service not being completed right the first time compared to ICE vehicle customers.

 

BEV owners less satisfied with maintenance than repairs: On average, there’s nearly twice as much maintenance work being done during dealer service visits than repair work. However, the maintenance-to-repair ratio for BEV owners is nearly an even split. While more complex service repair work usually results in lower customer satisfaction than does maintenance work, the opposite is true for BEV owners.

A large reason for this is that BEV owners are 2.5 times more likely to not experience their service completed right the first time. “BEVs are in their early stages and dealers seem to be experiencing growing pains with servicing these vehicles,” Sutton said. “Automakers may want to invest in more dealer service training. Otherwise, they run the risk of losing return customers.”

[FordBuyer]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Sorry about the missing link rmc523, I updated the post with the link. The study is J.D. Power Customer Service Index 2021. 2021 Customer Service Index (CSI) Study | J.D. Power (jdpower.com)

 

A reason that J.D. Power mentioned for lower dealer service department satisfaction among BEV owners is the much higher frequency of service not being completed right the first time compared to ICE vehicle customers.

 

 

 

 

That is a very important point. Look how many Cadillac dealers want no part of a BEV future and sold out to GM. I wonder how many Ford dealerships are willing to invest into a BEV future. I know my local Ford dealer has not even invested into one charging station. I have never seen one at Mullinax or Prestige. 

 

If you go by Cadillac pattern, maybe 30% of Ford dealers will stick to ICE only until they retire and the big corporate mega Ford dealers will commit fully to selling and servicing BEVs. 

 

The only Ford dealer I have noticed that has commited fully to electric is Varsity Ford in Ann Arbor. They sold lots of plugin CMaxes and Fusions and had a series of charging stations even back in 2016 and was place to go to service your electric vehicle. Probably because of the progressive culture of Ann Arbor. Only place in MI where I saw lots of Teslas.

 

[akirby]

You’re confusing BEV/non-BEV with low volume/high volume.  As you pass 200k approaching 1M annual sales you have to expand sales and service.  For a MFR to do that requires a HUGE investment whereas the incumbents just need to refit and retrain existing dealers.

 

 

[akirby]

14 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

That is a very important point. Look how many Cadillac dealers want no part of a BEV future and sold out to GM. I wonder how many Ford dealerships are willing to invest into a BEV future. I know my local Ford dealer has not even invested into one charging station. I have never seen one at Mullinax or Prestige. 

 

If you go by Cadillac pattern, maybe 30% of Ford dealers will stick to ICE only until they retire and the big corporate mega Ford dealers will commit fully to selling and servicing BEVs. 

 

The only Ford dealer I have noticed that has commited fully to electric is Varsity Ford in Ann Arbor. They sold lots of plugin CMaxes and Fusions and had a series of charging stations even back in 2016 and was place to go to service your electric vehicle. Probably because of the progressive culture of Ann Arbor. Only place in MI where I saw lots of Teslas.

 

Right now there isn’t enough volume to justify the expense for most dealers but that will change over the next 5 years.

[rmc523]

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Sorry about the missing link rmc523, I updated the post with the link. The study is J.D. Power Customer Service Index 2021. 2021 Customer Service Index (CSI) Study | J.D. Power (jdpower.com)

 

A reason that J.D. Power mentioned for lower dealer service department satisfaction among BEV owners is the much higher frequency of service not being completed right the first time compared to ICE vehicle customers.

 

 

 

 

Your view is purely blaming the dealers for worse service.  While I'm not here to say dealers or their service centers are perfect by any means, nor am I excusing a lack of training in BEVs, but I will push back some here.  If you're introducing an entirely new form of vehicle/new propulsion method, power source, build techniques, etc, it does make sense that there's a learning curve as far as service techs go.

If Tesla suddenly built a steam powered car, their service techs/centers would have a learning curve of how to service it too because it's completely different than what they're used to.  (I use steam as an example because it's a power form they couldn't go readily hire people from competitors, like if they started building a gas car).

 

Again, not excusing a lack of training, and I'm sure I wouldn't be thrilled if it took forever to service my car either, but I understand the transition aspect of it.

[FordBuyer]

31 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Your view is purely blaming the dealers for worse service.  While I'm not here to say dealers or their service centers are perfect by any means, nor am I excusing a lack of training in BEVs, but I will push back some here.  If you're introducing an entirely new form of vehicle/new propulsion method, power source, build techniques, etc, it does make sense that there's a learning curve as far as service techs go.

If Tesla suddenly built a steam powered car, their service techs/centers would have a learning curve of how to service it too because it's completely different than what they're used to.  (I use steam as an example because it's a power form they couldn't go readily hire people from competitors, like if they started building a gas car).

 

Again, not excusing a lack of training, and I'm sure I wouldn't be thrilled if it took forever to service my car either, but I understand the transition aspect of it.

 

Good points all. But I think a lot of smaller, family owned Ford dealerships will decline to make the big investment into selling and servicing BEVs as they become more prevalent and Ford starts putting pressure on them as GM did on Cadillac dealers. 

 

Maybe this is good news as there are probably too many Ford dealers as is and Ford needs to thin a lot of poor performing out anyway. Many people don't like change and that includes traditional dealerships that just want to sell ICE vehicles. I'm sure GM was happy to buy out 40% of all Cadillac dealerships. 

[FordBuyer]

43 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Your view is purely blaming the dealers for worse service.  While I'm not here to say dealers or their service centers are perfect by any means, nor am I excusing a lack of training in BEVs, but I will push back some here.  If you're introducing an entirely new form of vehicle/new propulsion method, power source, build techniques, etc, it does make sense that there's a learning curve as far as service techs go.

If Tesla suddenly built a steam powered car, their service techs/centers would have a learning curve of how to service it too because it's completely different than what they're used to.  (I use steam as an example because it's a power form they couldn't go readily hire people from competitors, like if they started building a gas car).

 

Again, not excusing a lack of training, and I'm sure I wouldn't be thrilled if it took forever to service my car either, but I understand the transition aspect of it.

 

I have noticed that some Ford dealerships have a hard time repairing hybrids with battery issues. I wonder how many of them have experienced technicians to deal with a complex hybrid. I have been researching this so I know where to go if I have trouble with my hybrid. Since Ford doesn't sell or build a lot of them, technicians don't see a lot of them until lots of time passes. Those technicians/mechanics don't get good at troubleshooting without lots of experience dealing with them.

 

For example, one hybrid is no longer running on electricity anymore and has fuel mileage of traditional ICE vehicle. So owner spends $5,000 on new battery at Ford dealership. Another hybrid owner goes to independent shop that specializes in hybrids and reboots the hybrid system for a few hundred dollars and system is back to normal. I have played that game before getting 2nd and 3rd opinions. 

[mackinaw]

35 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

Good points all. But I think a lot of smaller, family owned Ford dealerships will decline to make the big investment into selling and servicing BEVs as they become more prevalent and Ford starts putting pressure on them as GM did on Cadillac dealers.......

 

For BEV's, I know a Ford dealership has to be EV certified to sell a Mach-E.  You can't buy a Mach-E at my local dealership in Gaylord (not EV certified), but I can in Grayling 30 miles away.

 

It will be interesting to see what my dealer does when the F-150 Lightning goes on sale.  He'll have to bite the bullet and become EV certified.  

[akirby]

Smaller dealers will make the commitment when there are enough sales in their area to justify it.

[ice-capades]

43 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

For BEV's, I know a Ford dealership has to be EV certified to sell a Mach-E.  You can't buy a Mach-E at my local dealership in Gaylord (not EV certified), but I can in Grayling 30 miles away.

 

It will be interesting to see what my dealer does when the F-150 Lightning goes on sale.  He'll have to bite the bullet and become EV certified.  

 

Besides parts inventory and training for sales representatives and service technicians, the dealership has to spend approximately $30,000 on special service equipment, tools and lifts.

[rperez817]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

Again, not excusing a lack of training, and I'm sure I wouldn't be thrilled if it took forever to service my car either, but I understand the transition aspect of it.

 

That's why Rivian has direct ownership of the vehicle sales and service experience for its customers. It cannot afford to rely on third parties and their "transition" period for those things.

Edited November 21, 2021 by rperez817

[rmc523]

5 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Good points all. But I think a lot of smaller, family owned Ford dealerships will decline to make the big investment into selling and servicing BEVs as they become more prevalent and Ford starts putting pressure on them as GM did on Cadillac dealers. 

 

Maybe this is good news as there are probably too many Ford dealers as is and Ford needs to thin a lot of poor performing out anyway. Many people don't like change and that includes traditional dealerships that just want to sell ICE vehicles. I'm sure GM was happy to buy out 40% of all Cadillac dealerships. 

 

I'm sure not everyone will jump on board, but if it's the future of the entire industry (as it looks currently, timeline debatable), it means getting out of the business altogether if you don't enact some sort of transition plan.

 

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

That's why Rivian has direct ownership of the vehicle sales and service experience for its customers. It cannot afford to rely on third parties and their "transition" period for those things.

 

As usual, you missed the point.

 

Ford service centers are used to gas or diesel powered vehicles, so their techs are used to those, and not BEVs.

 

Rivian - whether through direct ownership, or traditional 3rd party dealers - would be a brand new EV brand that would always have been servicing BEVs, so their techs would know how to work on them from the get-go, there wouldn't be a transition period for their techs that Ford (or GM or Toyota) techs would have.

[rperez817]

29 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Rivian - whether through direct ownership, or traditional 3rd party dealers - would be a brand new EV brand that would always have been servicing BEVs, so their techs would know how to work on them from the get-go, there wouldn't be a transition period for their techs that Ford (or GM or Toyota) techs would have.

 

If traditional 3rd party dealers could provide the customer experience Rivian desires, Rivian would have gone that route. The fact they along with competitors Tesla and Lucid chose the direct to consumer model instead proves the superiority of that model for startup BEV automakers.

Edited November 22, 2021 by rperez817

[rmc523]

17 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

If traditional 3rd party dealers could provide the customer experience Rivian desires, Rivian would have gone that route. The fact they along with competitors Tesla and Lucid chose the direct to consumer model instead proves the superiority of that model for startup BEV automakers.

 

ok

[Gurgeh]

Not sure where best to put this: the Ford stock thread, Ford electrification, or Rivian. Went with here.

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ford-could-sell-down-rivian-stake-to-fuel-its-business-rbc-says-2021-12-06

Ford could sell down Rivian stake to fuel its business, RBC says

"Analysts at RBC Capital on Monday raised their price target on Ford Motor Co. F, 3.77% stock to $21, from $17, saying they continue to see upside for the auto maker. Their new valuation method includes further breaking up Ford's business, including its electric-vehicle business and investments in Rivian Automotive Inc. RIVN, -3.13%, to value the shares, they said. On Rivian, the analysts said they believe Ford views its investment in Rivian 'as a financial one, so they may eventually sell-down to help fund Ford's organic investment or other cash calls.' Ford Chief Executive Jim Farley last month vowed that Ford would become the second largest U.S. electric-vehicle maker. Ford shares have rallied 120% this year, compared with gains of around 22% for the S&P 500 index. SPX, 2.07%"

Edited December 7, 2021 by Gurgeh

[Joe771476]

So who pushed Ford off the board of Rivian?  Why is Ford distancing itself from Rivian when they should be embracing it!?

[Flying68]

27 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

So who pushed Ford off the board of Rivian?  Why is Ford distancing itself from Rivian when they should be embracing it!?

 

Bill Ford.  In good corporate governance, you shouldn't be sitting on a competitors board of directors.  Ford recognized that its presence on Rivian's board was an inherent conflict of interest once they determined that there was not going to be any sort of platform sharing.  They are now just an investor, but the option remains for the two companies to partner in the future, however Ford's presence on the board would have been a hinderance to both companies.

[rmc523]

Check out: "Rivian reportedly building $5 billion electric truck plant in Georgia"- https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/16/rivian-battery-truck-plant-factory-georgia/
 

Rivian is apparently set to announce a $5B plant in Georgia today.

[akirby]

Yay Georgia!

[HauwaUsman]

I know the thread is old but I just wanted to add that if they've already got Amazon as a customer, maybe they're onto something big. And did you see that Ford's equity investment in Rivian is now more valuable than their entire company?! That's nuts, man. It just goes to show how fast things are changing in the auto industry. Who knows, maybe we'll all be driving electric trucks in a few years. Speaking of investing, have you checked out the https://fbs.com/affiliate? You can earn some sweet commissions by promoting their android trading platform. Just saying, it's worth a look.

Edited April 19, 2023 by HauwaUsman

[Joe771476]

Sometimes I wonder if the rush to electric vehicles is for another reason. Are we running out of fossil fuel? Are they telling us everything? How long will it last, or for that matter, how long will lithium last? I think it's time to consider going back to mustangs and broncos. I don't mean the 4 WHEELED Ford ones, I mean the 4 LEGGED ones........real horsepower!  Fuel source?  Grass and hay!

Edited April 25, 2023 by Joe771476

[fuzzymoomoo]

5 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Are they telling us everything?

Government absolutely never does. 

[Joe771476]

All of this is moot, since the industry is drastically cutting back on EV manufacturing.

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

All of this is moot, since the industry is drastically cutting back on EV manufacturing.

 

Why the hell did you post in this thread that hasn't had any activity since April? 

[rperez817]

23 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

All of this is moot, since the industry is drastically cutting back on EV manufacturing.

 

21 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Why the hell did you post in this thread that hasn't had any activity since April? 

 

The post itself is moot, because the industry is not "drastically cutting back on EV manufacturing". Quite the opposite.