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2022 Zephyr


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4 hours ago, sullynd said:

I see zero reason to keep Lincoln around, especially with the coming BEV transition. Lincoln will never again be an upper echelon brand, and there is no reason a high end Ford cannot compete in the market Lincoln now competes.

 

My Mach-E is every bit the luxury car as it’s competition. A similar Lincoln BEV would be redundant.  

 

"My Mach-E is every bit the luxury car as it’s competition." What about the Mustang Mach-E makes it even close to being a luxury vehicle? 

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12 hours ago, sullynd said:

I see zero reason to keep Lincoln around, especially with the coming BEV transition. Lincoln will never again be an upper echelon brand, and there is no reason a high end Ford cannot compete in the market Lincoln now competes.

 

My Mach-E is every bit the luxury car as it’s competition. A similar Lincoln BEV would be redundant.  

 

As a Lincoln owner waiting for my third Lincoln to show up, I can assure you that while the Mach E is a well appointed vehicle, it is no Lincoln...not by a long shot. Yes, I took one out for a test ride and brought it home to look it over in my driveway, it was nice...really nice, but it is not "Lincoln nice".

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1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

As a Lincoln owner waiting for my third Lincoln to show up, I can assure you that while the Mach E is a well appointed vehicle, it is no Lincoln...not by a long shot. Yes, I took one out for a test ride and brought it home to look it over in my driveway, it was nice...really nice, but it is not "Lincoln nice".


The only thing Lincoln offers that Ford does not is 62 way seats and an overstyled interior. 

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8 hours ago, Dequindre said:

 

"My Mach-E is every bit the luxury car as it’s competition." What about the Mustang Mach-E makes it even close to being a luxury vehicle? 


How does one define a Luxury vehicle?  Is a Tesla a luxury vehicle?  Is it price?  Is a $90k truck a Luxury vehicle? Is it the dealership experience? If the dealership experience is no better (or sometimes worse) than a mainstream brand (Genesis, Lincoln) is it a luxury vehicle?  Is it ride quality?  Does it have to float?  If so what about the Germans?  Is it features? Which one? Large screens? Airbags? Power windows? 62 way seats? Which feature does a Lincoln offer that a Ford does not? Speed? Which Lincoln is faster 0-60 than my Mach-E? Leather? Is a Camry with leather a Luxury car?  BarcaLounger Interior?  What brand other than Lincoln offers that? The problem with Lincoln is even basic cars offer features that a couple decades ago were luxury items. True luxury brands have gone down-market, mainstream brands up-market.  There is no reason Ford cannot compete with Luxury brands with the right product.  There are plenty of people who have an F150 parked next to their Mercedes. 
 

Lincoln has a Mercury problem. 

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54 minutes ago, sullynd said:


The only thing Lincoln offers that Ford does not is 62 way seats and an overstyled interior. 

 

Have you put an Aviator next to an Explorer or Escape next to a Corsair? Ford did good job differentiating both .....yes interior wise but just as much exterior wise also. Other than similar dimensions, they look nothing alike. Ditto for Navigator and Nautilus. Lincoln has found its niche with quiet sanctuary, flight theme. If a vehicle looks luxurious, and feels luxurious, then it is luxurious. The tarted up Ford days are gone. 

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20 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Have you put an Aviator next to an Explorer or Escape next to a Corsair? Ford did good job differentiating both .....yes interior wise but just as much exterior wise also. Other than similar dimensions, they look nothing alike. Ditto for Navigator and Nautilus. Lincoln has found its niche with quiet sanctuary, flight theme. If a vehicle looks luxurious, and feels luxurious, then it is luxurious. The tarted up Ford days are gone. 


The Corsair is the best styled Lincoln in my lifetime.  But styling is subjective.  Nothing about the exterior of the Corsair inherently makes it a Luxury vehicle.  Likewise the interior; what some would say is Luxury others would say is gaudy. If Lincoln’s interiors are what define them as luxury then what are Audis?  
 

Other than style (and 62-way seats) what sets a Lincoln apart from a Ford?

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2 hours ago, sullynd said:


The Corsair is the best styled Lincoln in my lifetime.  But styling is subjective.  Nothing about the exterior of the Corsair inherently makes it a Luxury vehicle.  Likewise the interior; what some would say is Luxury others would say is gaudy. If Lincoln’s interiors are what define them as luxury then what are Audis?  
 

Other than style (and 62-way seats) what sets a Lincoln apart from a Ford?


Longer warranty, pickup and delivery,  better materials, better seats, more power, electronic suspensionsdynamic LED headlights, phone as a key, unique colors and styling (especially black label).  Etc etc

 

 

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2 hours ago, sullynd said:

Other than style (and 62-way seats) what sets a Lincoln apart from a Ford?

 

Dealership experience is the main distinction, or at least is supposed to be. However, many U.S. Lincoln dealerships have physical facilities that are co-located with Ford, diminishing the premium experience.

 

In China though, Lincoln dealerships are standalone and provide a level of service that luxury customers expect.

 

lincoln-opens-first-dealers-in-china-ful

lincoln-opens-first-dealers-in-china-ful

lincoln-opens-first-dealers-in-china-ful

 

 

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2 hours ago, sullynd said:


The Corsair is the best styled Lincoln in my lifetime.  But styling is subjective.  Nothing about the exterior of the Corsair inherently makes it a Luxury vehicle.  Likewise the interior; what some would say is Luxury others would say is gaudy. If Lincoln’s interiors are what define them as luxury then what are Audis?  
 

Other than style (and 62-way seats) what sets a Lincoln apart from a Ford?

 

What separates a Lexus from a Toyota or Infiniti from Nissan or Acura from Honda. Styling and interior. Now I will give you engines which are basically the same. But even there Aviator and Corsair GT have more hp than Ford counterparts. And as said Ford has tried hard to differentiate the dealership experience with concierge services. Ford has put the effort in and it shows. Lincoln is now a luxury brand and every Lincoln review I've read reinforces that. And Lincoln is much more than 30 way adjustable seats and head rest. Don't forget Black Label trims either. 

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15 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Dealership experience is the main distinction, or at least is supposed to be. However, many U.S. Lincoln dealerships have physical facilities that are co-located with Ford, diminishing the premium experience.

 

In China though, Lincoln dealerships are standalone and provide a level of service that luxury customers expect.

 

lincoln-opens-first-dealers-in-china-ful

lincoln-opens-first-dealers-in-china-ful

lincoln-opens-first-dealers-in-china-ful

 

 

 

Ford has tried hard to get Ford dealers to build separate Lincon facilities. To date, over 40 have in major metro areas. We have at least 2 in Central Florida. Now in small cities and towns it has been hard. Ditto for separate Bronco facilities. Some have signed up. Hopefully it will grow over time, especially if Ford adds new Lincoln product. 

 

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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

 

What separates a Lexus from a Toyota or Infiniti from Nissan or Acura from Honda. Styling and interior. Now I will give you engines which are basically the same.


Do you consider Infiniti and Acura successful brands to emulate? At least they (mostly) have a unique dealer experience. 
 

What are the Toyota equivalents of the LS, RC, LC, IS? 

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1 hour ago, akirby said:


Longer warranty, pickup and delivery,  better materials, better seats, more power, electronic suspensionsdynamic LED headlights, phone as a key, unique colors and styling (especially black label).  Etc etc

 

 


Longer warranty is one year more. Warranty isn’t a luxury item. Lincoln does not have better materials. Ford has phone as key too. 

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11 minutes ago, sullynd said:


Longer warranty is one year more. Warranty isn’t a luxury item. Lincoln does not have better materials. Ford has phone as key too. 

Have you compared an Expedition to a Navigator?  Sorry, this is not subjective, the Navigator does indeed have noticeably better quality interior materials.  I won’t speak for the other shared platforms, but my assumption is the material quality in the Lincoln products is noticeably better than their Ford counterparts as well.  

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14 minutes ago, sullynd said:


Longer warranty is one year more. Warranty isn’t a luxury item. Lincoln does not have better materials. Ford has phone as key too. 

 

All I can say is if you still think Lincoln is no more than a tarted up Ford, then you haven't been following Ford's efforts over the last 7 years or so. Your argument is old and lame. Give that argument to a Navigator or Aviator GT Touring Black Label owner who just spent over $100,000 for one. When I see an Aviator on the road, I don't see an Explorer. Get a new pair of glasses if you see an Explorer. Comparing Mercury to Lincoln today is a very poor analogy. 

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1 hour ago, akirby said:


Longer warranty, pickup and delivery,  better materials, better seats, more power, electronic suspensionsdynamic LED headlights, phone as a key, unique colors and styling (especially black label).  Etc etc

 

 


Longer warranty is one year more. Warranty isn’t a luxury item. Lincoln does not have better materials. Ford has phone as key too. 

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19 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Base the Zephyr off the Mustang sport sedan. Ford has learned how to differentiate Lincoln from Ford lately. A lift back is great idea. 

 

Investing ever more money in China is getting very risky considering U.S. China deteriorating relations. Use Flat Rock. 

 

Again, I just don't see investment in something like that now with the BEV transition.  I could see BEV versions of those, but not ICE at this point.  That went out the window with CD6.

 

19 hours ago, sullynd said:

I see zero reason to keep Lincoln around, especially with the coming BEV transition. Lincoln will never again be an upper echelon brand, and there is no reason a high end Ford cannot compete in the market Lincoln now competes.

 

My Mach-E is every bit the luxury car as it’s competition. A similar Lincoln BEV would be redundant.  

 

What are you talking about?  Lol.

 

If anything, BEVs fall right into Lincoln's wheelhouse of quiet, effortless performance, vs. the more pure performance angle other brands take.

 

If you can't see the strides Lincoln has made, then....

 

I'll agree Mach E is far better than competitors inside.  But calling a Lincoln counterpart unnecessary because Mach E does well against its competition is laughable.

 

5 hours ago, sullynd said:


How does one define a Luxury vehicle?  Is a Tesla a luxury vehicle?  Is it price?  Is a $90k truck a Luxury vehicle? Is it the dealership experience? If the dealership experience is no better (or sometimes worse) than a mainstream brand (Genesis, Lincoln) is it a luxury vehicle?  Is it ride quality?  Does it have to float?  If so what about the Germans?  Is it features? Which one? Large screens? Airbags? Power windows? 62 way seats? Which feature does a Lincoln offer that a Ford does not? Speed? Which Lincoln is faster 0-60 than my Mach-E? Leather? Is a Camry with leather a Luxury car?  BarcaLounger Interior?  What brand other than Lincoln offers that? The problem with Lincoln is even basic cars offer features that a couple decades ago were luxury items. True luxury brands have gone down-market, mainstream brands up-market.  There is no reason Ford cannot compete with Luxury brands with the right product.  There are plenty of people who have an F150 parked next to their Mercedes. 
 

Lincoln has a Mercury problem. 

 

A Mercury problem, really?  Mercury was at the end literally a Ford with a Mercury badge on it (to be fair, Lincolns too of the era).  Again, if you can't see the strides Lincoln has made.....

 

1 hour ago, sullynd said:


Do you consider Infiniti and Acura successful brands to emulate? At least they (mostly) have a unique dealer experience. 
 

What are the Toyota equivalents of the LS, RC, LC, IS? 

 

You're missing the point completely.

 

And obviously Lexus is a more successful/healthy brand than Lincoln is, but they're making progress.

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For those who haven't, go visit a Lexus, BMW, Acura, etc dealership. Or ask a friend who may have those brands. Compare the experience with a visit to the Ford dealership. Near my area, most Lincoln dealers are co-located with Ford and the experience is little differentiated. Several dealerships used to have separate facilities, but abandoned them with the death of Mercury and being starved for product. On the product side, BMW, Audi, Acura are performance-luxury. Lexus "smooth" reliable luxury. Lincoln is closer to the Lexus orientation. Own a 2014 Taurus SHO. Got to drive several Lincoln MKS Eccoboost. Same power, same engine, same platform. Much smoother drive. More comfortable interior. Unescapable feeling I was driving an old man's car. I know we've moved beyond the MKS, and Taurus for that matter. Image has to change and a direction apparent to succeed.

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2 hours ago, 02MustangGT said:

Have you compared an Expedition to a Navigator?  Sorry, this is not subjective, the Navigator does indeed have noticeably better quality interior materials.  I won’t speak for the other shared platforms, but my assumption is the material quality in the Lincoln products is noticeably better than their Ford counterparts as well.  


Have you sat in a King Ranch?  I’m not arguing there’s no reason someone should buy a Navigator today. I’m saying there’s no reason for the Navigator to exist. If somehow the Navigators leather is that much nicer than the King Ranch’s, then the King Ranch should be upgraded.

 

Having a different top hat, dealer network, marketing to support nominal sales makes no sense.

 

Lincoln doesn’t offer a unique buying experience, service experience.  The vehicles do not have unique powertrains. The “it has ten more hp than the equivalent Ford” is a marketing gimmick. It probably needs that to make up for the weight of the  barcalounger interior.  (More likely Ford underrates both)

 

Yes, RMC, Lincoln is the new Mercury. Are the top hats more unique than the past? Sure. But keeping Lincoln around because some small group would only buy an Aviator and not an Explorer Platinum didn’t keep the GrandmaQuis around either. 

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22 minutes ago, sullynd said:


Have you sat in a King Ranch?  I’m not arguing there’s no reason someone should buy a Navigator today. I’m saying there’s no reason for the Navigator to exist. If somehow the Navigators leather is that much nicer than the King Ranch’s, then the King Ranch should be upgraded.

 

Having a different top hat, dealer network, marketing to support nominal sales makes no sense.

 

Lincoln doesn’t offer a unique buying experience, service experience.  The vehicles do not have unique powertrains. The “it has ten more hp than the equivalent Ford” is a marketing gimmick. It probably needs that to make up for the weight of the  barcalounger interior.  (More likely Ford underrates both)

Yes, my parents own a 2020 F150 King Ranch.  The leather is nice for sure, but I’m not just referring to leather quality.  Sit in a Lincoln, then go sit in the comparable Ford.  The quality difference is noticeable and you absolutely pay for it.  In the case of the Navigator, there again, the Raptor 3.5EB  is exclusive to Lincoln in terms of full size SUV’s.  You cannot get 450hp/510tq in an Expy.  That’s more than “10 HP” difference btw.  Look, I get what you are saying, Ford could potentially go even more upmarket with trims, some would argue they already have, but unique interior/exterior styling and higher quality materials, among other exclusive bits allows Lincoln to continue to succeed and be profitable.  BTW, our Lincoln and the stand-alone Lincoln dealer nearby does offer a unique buying and service experience when compared to the Ford dealers in the area.  

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30 minutes ago, sullynd said:


Have you sat in a King Ranch?  I’m not arguing there’s no reason someone should buy a Navigator today. I’m saying there’s no reason for the Navigator to exist. If somehow the Navigators leather is that much nicer than the King Ranch’s, then the King Ranch should be upgraded.

 

Having a different top hat, dealer network, marketing to support nominal sales makes no sense.

 

Lincoln doesn’t offer a unique buying experience, service experience.  The vehicles do not have unique powertrains. The “it has ten more hp than the equivalent Ford” is a marketing gimmick. It probably needs that to make up for the weight of the  barcalounger interior.  (More likely Ford underrates both)

 

Yes, RMC, Lincoln is the new Mercury. Are the top hats more unique than the past? Sure. But keeping Lincoln around because some small group would only buy an Aviator and not an Explorer Platinum didn’t keep the GrandmaQuis around either. 

 

Look, it's really simple: In your opinion, Lincoln doesn't need to be kept around because it doesn't make sense or appeal to you. That is perfectly reasonable, but it's not an absolute, because Lincoln is selling product which means it appeals to those buyers. There's no argument to made - as long as the business case for Lincoln is sound (it must be at this point, given that Ford continue to fund its product line), then while your opinion works perfectly well for you, it is not an absolute because Lincoln is selling in adequate enough quantities to pay its way and justify continued investment from FMC.

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8 hours ago, sullynd said:


The only thing Lincoln offers that Ford does not is 62 way seats and an overstyled interior. 

 

7 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Have you put an Aviator next to an Explorer or Escape next to a Corsair? Ford did good job differentiating both .....yes interior wise but just as much exterior wise also. Other than similar dimensions, they look nothing alike. Ditto for Navigator and Nautilus. Lincoln has found its niche with quiet sanctuary, flight theme. If a vehicle looks luxurious, and feels luxurious, then it is luxurious. The tarted up Ford days are gone. 

 

FordBuyer has it right. There was a time when Lincoln had fallen to the point of essentially offering Ford products with more leather and wood but those times are past, thank goodness. It is no longer a matter of just differentiating a Lincoln product from its Ford cousin. Nowadays, FMC works up a basic platform and then Ford Motor Company and Lincoln Motor Company each design their own distinct vehicles. We saw that especially in the development of the Aviator and Corsair. The Aviator shares almost nothing with the Explorer other than similar dimensions and a common platform. And is the Corsair anything at all like the Escape or Bronco Sport? All those five vehicles are attractive in their own way, but no one is really going to be cross-shopping them.

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26 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Look, it's really simple: In your opinion, Lincoln doesn't need to be kept around because it doesn't make sense or appeal to you. That is perfectly reasonable, but it's not an absolute, because Lincoln is selling product which means it appeals to those buyers. There's no argument to made - as long as the business case for Lincoln is sound (it must be at this point, given that Ford continue to fund its product line), then while your opinion works perfectly well for you, it is not an absolute because Lincoln is selling in adequate enough quantities to pay its way and justify continued investment from FMC.

 

To be fair, I would say the verdict on Lincoln is still an open question. Covid chip shortage hasn't helped. IMO, Lincoln does need a BEV sport sedan that rivals Model S, Taycan, and even new Lucid Air. Round out the lineup. Eventually 6 vehicle lineup with at least 150,000 sales/year once we get Covid under control. And hopefully more mega dealers will be interested in investing in stand alone Lincoln facilities. I don't think Ford is too far away from at least having 2 Lincoln dealers in every major Metro area where all the luxury buyers are.

 

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3 hours ago, sullynd said:

Lincoln is the new Mercury. Are the top hats more unique than the past? Sure. But keeping Lincoln around because some small group would only buy an Aviator and not an Explorer Platinum didn’t keep the GrandmaQuis around either. 

 

Lincoln may have a bright future and get past its "new Mercury" reputation if Ford is able to effectively use the brand as a showcase for new technologies as the company transitions to 100% electric vehicles. Tesla is now the premier U.S. domestic luxury car brand, and GM planning to use Cadillac as a showcase for its BEV technologies. If Lincoln successfully joins them, the 3 brands combined may lead to a renaissance for American luxury vehicles from American companies in their home market as well as abroad.

 

But you are correct about Lincoln's current state, at least in the U.S. market. As mentioned earlier, Lincoln has a much better reputation in China, where Ford never established a Mercury brand and where the level of customer service matches or exceeds Chinese, European, Japanese, and South Korean luxury car brands.

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On 9/5/2021 at 3:30 PM, sullynd said:


Have you sat in a King Ranch?  I’m not arguing there’s no reason someone should buy a Navigator today. I’m saying there’s no reason for the Navigator to exist. If somehow the Navigators leather is that much nicer than the King Ranch’s, then the King Ranch should be upgraded.

 

Having a different top hat, dealer network, marketing to support nominal sales makes no sense.

 

Lincoln doesn’t offer a unique buying experience, service experience.  The vehicles do not have unique powertrains. The “it has ten more hp than the equivalent Ford” is a marketing gimmick. It probably needs that to make up for the weight of the  barcalounger interior.  (More likely Ford underrates both)

 

Yes, RMC, Lincoln is the new Mercury. Are the top hats more unique than the past? Sure. But keeping Lincoln around because some small group would only buy an Aviator and not an Explorer Platinum didn’t keep the GrandmaQuis around either. 

 

Yup, Ford should just throw away $80-100k sales because you say so.

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