'21 August Sales Report

[jpd80]

45 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

RAM particularly for sure 

So long as they keep chopping into GM and not so much Ford…….

Edited September 4, 2021 by jpd80

[02MustangGT]

MSRP is comparative.  In fact, RAM 1500 starting MSRP is higher than F150.  So no, RAM and GM are not undercutting F150 on price.  
 

https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1131595_2021-ford-f-150-vs-2021-ram-1500-compare-trucks

[jpd80]

17 minutes ago, 02MustangGT said:

MSRP is comparative.  In fact, RAM 1500 starting MSRP is higher than F150.  So no, RAM and GM are not undercutting F150 on price.  
 

https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1131595_2021-ford-f-150-vs-2021-ram-1500-compare-trucks

Starting price has very little to do with the actual sales mix though and it’s clear that Silverado

has suffered for its looks with more than a few GM buyers switching to Ram, maybe som Fordies too….

 

What Ram has been doing in the recent past is signing up anyone with a heartbeat to finance……

Edited September 4, 2021 by jpd80

[02MustangGT]

27 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Starting price has very little to do with the actual sales mix though and it’s clear that Silverado

has suffered for its looks with more than a few GM buyers switching to Ram, maybe som Fordies too….

 

What Ram has been doing in the recent past is signing up anyone with a heartbeat to finance……

I didn’t mention that on purpose.  I knew the sales mix and “discounts/financing” would be the first rebuttal.  The fact remains, RAM and GM do not price their trucks to undercut the F150.  Hell, back in 2013, I purchase a new F150 XLT SuperCrew 4x4 302A.  MSRP was $45k, sale price was $32k (with discounts etc).  That was the norm for volume model trucks (regardless manufacturer..in terms of Big 3) and still would be today if it wasn’t for COVID and supply constraints.  Regardless of the sales mix, full size trucks print money for manufacturers.    

Edited September 4, 2021 by 02MustangGT

[jpd80]

7 minutes ago, 02MustangGT said:

I didn’t mention that on purpose.  I knew the sales mix and “discounts/financing” would be the first rebuttal.  The fact remains, RAM and GM do not price their trucks to undercut the F150.  Hell, back in 2013, I purchase a new F150 XLT SuperCrew 4x4 302A.  MSRP was $45k, sale price was $32k (with discounts etc).  That was the norm for volume model trucks (regardless manufacture…in terms of Big 3) and still would be today if it wasn’t for COVID and supply constraints.  Regardless of the sales mix, full size trucks print money for manufacturers.    

Correct, the to and fro between GM and Ram has less to do with price and more about what buyers want.

 The turbo 6 of F150 has its own loyal followers that are distinct from the GM/Ram V8 centric buyers….

[CKNSLS]

4 hours ago, 02MustangGT said:

MSRP is comparative.  In fact, RAM 1500 starting MSRP is higher than F150.  So no, RAM and GM are not undercutting F150 on price.  
 

https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1131595_2021-ford-f-150-vs-2021-ram-1500-compare-trucks

 

I bought my Silverado back in 2018 for $12,000.00 off the $54,000 sticker (LTZ Crew Cab 4-WD fully loaded). It was $5,000.00 less than the comparable Ford at the time.  So yes-at that point in time they were. I cross shopped both.

Edited September 4, 2021 by CKNSLS

[02MustangGT]

6 hours ago, CKNSLS said:

 

I bought my Silverado back in 2018 for $12,000.00 off the $54,000 sticker (LTZ Crew Cab 4-WD fully loaded). It was $5,000.00 less than the comparable Ford at the time.  So yes-at that point in time they were. I cross shopped both.

Certainly rebates/discounts can be a factor when cross-shopping.  My statement stands, the MSRP for full size trucks is comparative.  There is not a significant difference when comparing similarly equipped models.  

[Chrisgb]

10 hours ago, 02MustangGT said:

MSRP is comparative.  In fact, RAM 1500 starting MSRP is higher than F150.  So no, RAM and GM are not undercutting F150 on price.  
 

https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1131595_2021-ford-f-150-vs-2021-ram-1500-compare-trucks

The Ram1500 Classic, Ram's 4th generation truck, is still in production alongside the 5G Ram 1500. the Classic's MSRP is typically lower than either its Ram counterpart or Fi50 or Silverado throughout most configurations.

[jpd80]

Didn’t GM also build a “classic”/ older Silverado in Canada or is that now done and finished?

[rperez817]

43 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Didn’t GM also build a “classic”/ older Silverado in Canada or is that now done and finished?

 

Yes sir, GM built K2XX Silverado and Sierra with the "LD" name for 2019 model year. Production of that model was done and finished in December 2019. In fact, this was the last vehicle produced at GM's former Oshawa Assembly plant before it closed. The last truck off the line was raffled off for employees of that plant, who raised money for Durham Children's Aid Foundation.

 

 

 

[2005Explorer]

I know that the majority of forum users here have 6 digit plus incomes so rapidly rising vehicle prices are not an issue, but many of us are being priced out of the new vehicle (and even used) market with these prices that are inflating much faster then our salary. Now I commend Ford for introducing both the Ranger and Maverick which are priced at the lower to middle of the new truck market, but at the current rate of vehicle inflation F-Series is soon going to become a vehicle only the upper class can own. Inflation is well liked on these forums, but it creates a problem for many of us when we only get 3% annual raises, but everything else is going up much faster then that.

 

Of course at some point it could all come crashing down if the market does a readjustment. Real estate is also absolutely crazy right now. How long can it all go on?

[FordBuyer]

49 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

I know that the majority of forum users here have 6 digit plus incomes so rapidly rising vehicle prices are not an issue, but many of us are being priced out of the new vehicle (and even used) market with these prices that are inflating much faster then our salary. Now I commend Ford for introducing both the Ranger and Maverick which are priced at the lower to middle of the new truck market, but at the current rate of vehicle inflation F-Series is soon going to become a vehicle only the upper class can own. Inflation is well liked on these forums, but it creates a problem for many of us when we only get 3% annual raises, but everything else is going up much faster then that.

 

Of course at some point it could all come crashing down if the market does a readjustment. Real estate is also absolutely crazy right now. How long can it all go on?

 

Don't forget us retirees on here on fixed incomes. Inflation is our big enemy, and it looks like BEV prices are going through the roof until they get a handle on battery costs. Looks like ATP is now over $40,000. And 3 year old used vehicles are not much lower. Glad I bought new 17 months ago. 

[Rodrigo]

1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

 

No se olvide de los jubilados aquí con ingresos fijos. La inflación es nuestro gran enemigo, y parece que los precios de los BEV se están disparando hasta que controlen los costos de las baterías. Parece que el ATP ahora supera los $ 40.000. Y los vehículos usados de 3 años no son mucho más bajos. Me alegro de haber comprado nuevo hace 17 meses. 

 

whenever you want, i´tell you what it´s like to live in a country with 50% inflation like mine has, it´s crap and the only thing it generates is more poor people,

[CKNSLS]

7 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

I know that the majority of forum users here have 6 digit plus incomes so rapidly rising vehicle prices are not an issue, but many of us are being priced out of the new vehicle (and even used) market with these prices that are inflating much faster then our salary. Now I commend Ford for introducing both the Ranger and Maverick which are priced at the lower to middle of the new truck market, but at the current rate of vehicle inflation F-Series is soon going to become a vehicle only the upper class can own. Inflation is well liked on these forums, but it creates a problem for many of us when we only get 3% annual raises, but everything else is going up much faster then that.

 

Of course at some point it could all come crashing down if the market does a readjustment. Real estate is also absolutely crazy right now. How long can it all go on?

IMHO-you are not going to see vehicle pricing reduction of 20%. I'm not going to see that in my local Real Estate market either.  It sounds like your retirement planning-respectfully could be flawed. I have rental properties-if inflation goes up so do my rents.

Edited September 5, 2021 by CKNSLS

[2005Explorer]

23 minutes ago, CKNSLS said:

IMHO-you are not going to see vehicle pricing reduction of 20%. I'm not going to see that in my local Real Estate market either.  It sounds like your retirement planning-respectfully could be flawed. I have rental properties-if inflation goes up so do my rents.

Retirement planning flawed? I'm a teacher so I will have state retirement which is decent. I served 21 years in the Army National Guard and retired as a Major so when I turn 60 I will get retirement plus qualify for Tri-care health insurance. I already do all my medical through the VA and since I got myself into the system after the Iraq War so I'm golden there. I also inherited 1000 acres of farm land I share in an LLC holding company with my two siblings. I also have my home half paid off and own 160 acres of ag land free and clear myself. If I'm not ok for retirement there's going to be a lot of people in trouble.

 

I was just commenting about the current rate of inflation is way outpacing my raises and that creates a problem. Not for high income earners like yourself and others on the forum, but for people like me and others stuck in the middle of middle class it does.

Edited September 5, 2021 by 2005Explorer

[CKNSLS]

4 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

Retirement planning flawed? I'm a teacher so I will have state retirement which is decent. I served 21 years in the Army National Guard and retired as a Major so when I turn 60 I will get retirement plus qualify for Tri-care health insurance. I already do all my medical through the VA and since I got myself into the system after the Iraq War so I'm golden there. I also inherited 1000 acres of farm land I share in an LLC holding company with my two siblings. I also have my home half paid off and own 160 acres of ag land free and clear myself. If I'm not ok for retirement there's going to be a lot of people in trouble.

 

I was just commenting about the current rate of inflation is way outpacing my raises and that creates a problem. Not for high income earners like yourself and others on the forum, but for people like me and others stuck in the middle of middle class it does.

If you have those assets-you are not "middle class". And hopefully that land is appreciating. If it isn't-it should be sold. Congrats on the medical coverage. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by CKNSLS

[CurtisH]

18 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

. . . . Inflation is well liked on these forums . . . 

I don’t recall anyone on this forum saying that they like inflation. 

[rperez817]

21 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

F-Series is soon going to become a vehicle only the upper class can own.

 

It already is. Full size pickup trucks are now the premier upper class status symbol in the U.S. automotive market. With F-Series, Ford unofficially has a 2nd luxury brand.

[ice-capades]

The F-Series market has evolved continuously over the years. I remember well 35 years ago, when I started managing my dealership's new vehicle inventory, when in the Northeast you'd rarely see anything other than F-150 Regular Cabs, mostly XLT's and some XL work trucks. You'd see a few SuperCabs but Super Duty's were almost exclusively for commercial applications. West of the Mississippi you'd see a lot more SuperCab and Crew Cab Super Duty's because of different customer requirements. 

 

Over the years, customer perceptions and needs changed and Ford's F-Series models helped attract even more customers that wanted their pickups to be more of a personal vehicle but could also be functional when needed. And as the personal use over functional market grew, so did the demand for more personal/luxury trim models and options. No manufacturer knows, studies or understands their truck or pickup customers better than Ford as evidenced by the 44 years of sales leadership. Ford continuously leads the market with new upscale models, features and options ahead of the competition and, when the competition catches up, Ford jumps ahead with even more class leading innovations. 

 

And over the years, as quality has improved and vehicles have become more expensive, the ownership cycle has increased to an average of 11 years now. And as prices in general have increased, the financing options have increased to include financing terms as long as 84 months making the monthly payments more affordable to more customers. Retail customers can finance for longer terms, with lower monthly payments, and upgrade to more expensive vehicles. And with leasing becoming a more important part of the business, customers can lease much more expensive vehicles and still stay within their monthly budgets. 

 

Yes, Ford is selling a lot of high-end F-Series models (Lariat, King Ranch, Platinum) but it's not necessarily because there are so many customers with 6 figure incomes. The typical ownership period has increased substantially, financing options are now available for much longer terms, leasing options make higher trim vehicles more affordable, etc. Ford has continuously anticipated and successfully executed its plan to provide the right mix of F-Series models to match and exceed the market demand.     

[Chrisgb]

22 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

I know that the majority of forum users here have 6 digit plus incomes so rapidly rising vehicle prices are not an issue, but many of us are being priced out of the new vehicle (and even used) market with these prices that are inflating much faster then our salary. Now I commend Ford for introducing both the Ranger and Maverick which are priced at the lower to middle of the new truck market, but at the current rate of vehicle inflation F-Series is soon going to become a vehicle only the upper class can own. Inflation is well liked on these forums, but it creates a problem for many of us when we only get 3% annual raises, but everything else is going up much faster then that.

 

Of course at some point it could all come crashing down if the market does a readjustment. Real estate is also absolutely crazy right now. How long can it all go on?

It could get to the point where Wuling, Great Wall,  Maxus et al make a run at the US market. At $50-75 K MSRP for mid- and upmarket US pickups, China could export a USDOT-spec truck competitively priced even with the Chicken Tax. They are getting better.  More here.

[CKNSLS]

8 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

It could get to the point where Wuling, Great Wall,  Maxus et al make a run at the US market. At $50-75 K MSRP for mid- and upmarket US pickups, China could export a USDOT-spec truck competitively priced even with the Chicken Tax. They are getting better.  More here.

Anybody discounting the Chinese entering the U.S. market is mistaken. GAC makes some really nice looking CUVs/SUVs.  Great Wall is also a large manufacturer.  THEY WILL enter the U.S. market. Not sure when-or what vehicle segment-but they are coming at some point. And with the ATP in all segments going to (for some) astronomical levels-it leaves a door open.

https://www.gac-motor.com/en/index

Edited September 6, 2021 by CKNSLS

[bzcat]

8 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

It could get to the point where Wuling, Great Wall,  Maxus et al make a run at the US market. At $50-75 K MSRP for mid- and upmarket US pickups, China could export a USDOT-spec truck competitively priced even with the Chicken Tax. They are getting better.  More here.

 

GM is not going to introduce the Wuling brand in the US. There is no point doing that. If they import Wuling truck or van, it will be sold as Chevy here.

 

Great Wall sells a decent amount of pickup trucks in 3rd world countries but they have yet to find any success in any large established markets and I doubt Toyota and Ford will just roll over and let them go unchallenged.

 

 

[CKNSLS]

10 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

GM is not going to introduce the Wuling brand in the US. There is no point doing that. If they import Wuling truck or van, it will be sold as Chevy here.

 

Great Wall sells a decent amount of pickup trucks in 3rd world countries but they have yet to find any success in any large established markets and I doubt Toyota and Ford will just roll over and let them go unchallenged.

 

 

True-but it's about costs. Can the domestics cost structure take the Chinese competition? That's the golden question. 

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, CKNSLS said:

Can the domestics cost structure take the Chinese competition? That's the golden question. 

 

Probably not. In the U.S. market, Ford and the other 2 domestics (GM and Tesla) will focus on middle to high-end products and services that align with their high cost structures. The follow-up to the golden question then becomes "will new Chinese companies that enter the U.S. market attempt to compete with U.S. companies in the mid to high end, or pick up customers at the low end that the domestics ignore? Or both?"

 

Maybe a Chinese automaker will create a JV with a U.S. company to design high-end products? In the China domestic market, BYD partnered with Mercedes-Benz to create Denza X.

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by rperez817

[WillSD]

F-Series expanded their full-size pickup leadership again in August:

 

August (Month):  Ford  57,321   Chevrolet  40,448   Ram  40,257   GMC  17,582    (General Motors  58,030)

 

August (YTD):  Ford 471,667   Ram  395,095   Chevrolet  377,596   GMC  178,055   (General Motors  555,651)