jpd80 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 5 hours ago, bzcat said: Ford is a non-factor is cars in Australia. The market is dominated by Toyota, Hyundai and Mazda - the Big 3 in Australia. Ford Australia is basically a 1-vehicle line brand - Ranger/Everest (mostly Ranger) accounts for up to 90% of the volume. A smattering of Mustang, Transit and Endura (Edge) rounds out the rest. Focus, Fiesta and Kuga are all afterthoughts. I believe Puma was just recently introduced so too early to say if that will be a success. Puma was voted car of the year and is gaining a reputation as a nice vehicle but Ford is starting the price at about compact utility prices, also hard to get out of Europe at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 18 hours ago, akirby said: Neither one of you seem to understand that Focus and Fusion made almost no profit (and may have actually lost money). Sales and profit are not the same thing. There is no significant difference between Fusion and Focus and all the competition. Competition and commodity products drives prices way down. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 If VW and Toyota can made a profit on cars, what's Ford's problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 30 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: If VW and Toyota can made a profit on cars, what's Ford's problem? Inefficiencies in Ford's product planning and development. Global platforms such as C2 used by current generation Focus, Escape, Bronco Sport, Maverick, and Corsair have helped, but Ford hasn't achieved the efficiencies that VW did with MQB and Toyota did with TNGA. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 12 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Inefficiencies in Ford's product planning and development. Global platforms such as C2 used by current generation Focus, Escape, Bronco Sport, Maverick, and Corsair have helped, but Ford hasn't achieved the efficiencies that VW did with MQB and Toyota did with TNGA. So Ford built the Fusion in Mexico and couldn't make a profit and builds the Escape in UAW U.S and offers $3,500+ incentives and makes a profit. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 59 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: If VW and Toyota can made a profit on cars, what's Ford's problem? 25 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: So Ford built the Fusion in Mexico and couldn't make a profit and builds the Escape in UAW U.S and offers $3,500+ incentives and makes a profit. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. The reasons have been discussed ad infinitum. Go do a search if you want to know. We’re not going to keep rehashing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: If VW and Toyota can made a profit on cars, what's Ford's problem? But do they or are you just assuming that the profit is spread equally across all vehicles sold? All major brands are experiencing sales transition away from cars, of course they’ll charge more for utilities that everyone seems to want. Ford made the decision to drop cars and chase more profitable utilities and pickups, Ford’s US cars only became less profitable after high series buyers deserted and went to other vehicles, yes the market has changed that much. Do your own research and you’ll find that every manufacturer knows that it needs utilities more than cars to survive and prosper. Edited October 19, 2021 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 5 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: If VW and Toyota can made a profit on cars, what's Ford's problem? They can AT LEAST import the Focus ST from Europe like VW does with the Golf GTI and R. Excuses disguised as "reasons" in 5 4 3 2 1... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 1 hour ago, AGR said: They can AT LEAST import the Focus ST from Europe like VW does with the Golf GTI and R. Ford did that with the previous generation Focus RS. Also, jpd80 mentioned earlier in this thread that Ford Australia will import new 2022 Focus ST from Europe. If Ford is able to certify new Focus ST to meet U.S. regulatory standards (DOT) in a cost effective way, they may consider your suggestion for the U.S. market too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Focus RS had a waiting list with a great demographic, median buyer was in their 20s with a six figure income. Over on VW Vortex forum there an 800+ comment thread of buyers lined up to buy the incoming Golf R at $45,000+... Ford could have those treasured young affluent customers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 45 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Focus RS had a waiting list with a great demographic, median buyer was in their 20s with a six figure income. Over on VW Vortex forum there an 800+ comment thread of buyers lined up to buy the incoming Golf R at $45,000+... Ford could have those treasured young affluent customers. To beat a dead horse, Ford is the only major auto manufacturer to not produce even ONE sedan in North America. What that says I'm not sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: To beat a dead horse, Ford is the only major auto manufacturer to not produce even ONE sedan in North America. What that says I'm not sure. They’re also the only mfr with a BEV utility/full sized pickup/full sized van, 2 off road utilities and a full range of pickup trucks. You guys act like they just killed cars and didn’t replace them with anything new. Edited October 20, 2021 by akirby 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 All off the above are trucks. Good trucks, but still trucks. The Ford heritage includes trucks, but wasn't built with trucks. The Ford heritage was built by the cars like the Model T, flathead V8, "hot rod Lincolns", Thunderbird, Cobra, Mustang, GT, RS, NASCAR stock cars, and Taurus SHO. Ford has killed all but the GT which is on death row, and how long will the sporty 2 door Mustang survive? Sorry, but without cars Ford is about as exciting as Freightliner... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 7 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: All off the above are trucks. Good trucks, but still trucks. The Ford heritage includes trucks, but wasn't built with trucks. The Ford heritage was built by the cars like the Model T, flathead V8, "hot rod Lincolns", Thunderbird, Cobra, Mustang, GT, RS, NASCAR stock cars, and Taurus SHO. Ford has killed all but the GT which is on death row, and how long will the sporty 2 door Mustang survive? Sorry, but without cars Ford is about as exciting as Freightliner... Ford didn't kill cars...market forces killed 'em. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 10 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: All off the above are trucks. Good trucks, but still trucks. The Ford heritage includes trucks, but wasn't built with trucks. The Ford heritage was built by the cars like the Model T, flathead V8, "hot rod Lincolns", Thunderbird, Cobra, Mustang, GT, RS, NASCAR stock cars, and Taurus SHO. Ford has killed all but the GT which is on death row, and how long will the sporty 2 door Mustang survive? Sorry, but without cars Ford is about as exciting as Freightliner... That’s your preference and it’s fine but you’re now in the minority. The reason cars were so prevalent in the past is that trucks rode terribly, got terrible gas mileage, only had 2 doors and had none of the amenities that cars had. That started to change in the 90s and then crossovers came along which provided a car like ride and fuel economy and comfort with more utility and AWD. Then trucks got better with 4 doors and the rest is history. One last reminder that people seem to either forget or never understood: You can’t add 10+ brand new products (Bronco, Ranger, Maverick, Bronco Sport, Mach-e, Lightning, e-transit, 4 other Bev utilities) AND keep everything else in production without an enormous investment which requires huge capital investment and huge additional fixed overhead. When you rank all the projects and vehicles by cost, margin, ROI and strategic importance and overlay available resources, some things fall below the line and don’t get funded. That’s just how business operates. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 4 hours ago, twintornados said: Ford didn't kill cars...market forces killed 'em. In the case of Focus (subject of this thread) for U.S. market, both Ford and market forces were responsible for its death. Ford because it was responsible for destroying the nameplate's reputation in the U.S. completely. Market forces because the passenger car segments are intensely competitive, with "survival of the fittest" being the rule. Focus has a better reputation in Europe and Asia. But bzcat's post suggests that Focus has a limited lifespan remaining in Australia. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Since when is killing off high volume products whose development and tooling was long ago paid for and spending billions to replace them with a bunch of niche products a viable business strategy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 13 hours ago, FordBuyer said: Ford is the only major auto manufacturer to not produce even ONE sedan in North America. What that says I'm not sure. What it says is that there are no more passenger car nameplates left for Ford to screw up in that region. It's the end of an era, and an opportunity for a fresh start at Ford with different products and different strategies. The last sedan remaining in Ford's North American markets is Figo in Mexico. That sedan was imported from India. However, with Ford's vehicle assembly plants in India now shut down permanently, Figo exports to Mexico will end later this year. Figo 2021 | Poderoso Auto Sedán | Ford México Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 28 minutes ago, rperez817 said: In the case of Focus (subject of this thread) for U.S. market, both Ford and market forces were responsible for its death. Ford because it was responsible for destroying the nameplate's reputation in the U.S. completely. Market forces because the passenger car segments are intensely competitive, with "survival of the fittest" being the rule. Focus has a better reputation in Europe and Asia. But bzcat's post suggests that Focus has a limited lifespan remaining in Australia. In most ways, I do drive a Focus now....it's called an Escape with basically the same interior, similar exterior design cues, and slightly higher ride height. And of course much better fuel mileage with drivetrain Focus never got here. My only problem understanding is the demise of the Fusion. Much needed hybrid drivetrain and lots of built up brand equity. Never understood the tepid refresh either. I shake my head everytime I see a Fusion on the road. Fusion thread on here was most popular thread on here for years even up to its demise. Anyway, I believe Ford will have one sedan in its lineup in next 5 years along with Lincoln. And it will cost Ford billions when they already had a very attractive sedan called the Fusion and MKZ. Bad decisions and planning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Since when is killing off high volume products whose development and tooling was long ago paid for and spending billions to replace them with a bunch of niche products a viable business strategy? It’s been explained over a dozen times. Your posts are quickly reaching troll status. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 OK, I can take a hint... Should I cancel my Transit Connect order, dump my Ford stock, and leave Ford for good? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 21 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: OK, I can take a hint... Should I cancel my Transit Connect order, dump my Ford stock, and leave Ford for good? Why would we care what you decide to do? None of us work for Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 20 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Should I cancel my Transit Connect order, dump my Ford stock, and leave Ford for good? Though it's your decision, I'd say don't give up on Ford by doing those things. Even though it sucks that Ford destroyed the reputation of Focus nameplate in the U.S. and that 4th generation Focus is not available outside Europe, Asia, and Australia, Ford as a company is finally heading in the right direction. Jim Farley is a good businessman, and should be able to finish the work that Jim Hackett started to get Ford fit again. As Ford transitions to 100% electric vehicles, they may introduce something like a new generation Focus EV in the U.S. market but without all the issues that plagued the previous Focus EV. Maybe even a hi-po version. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 But some of the folks here are pretty invested in Ford, and I don't mean just in stock. I include myself in these Ford fans, but with the sobering realization that Ford has fallen a long ways from the glory days of the 60s. Having a fan base is a good thing for Ford, but look at the HOG(NYSE) fan base or more accurately, cult- While it was nice to have a reliable stream of Harley customers, the Harley cult chased away new customers and doomed innovative products like Buell and the V-Rod to failure. Hopefully Ford is not following HOG(NYSE)'s bad example... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 The only ones who are sad are the non Mustang car lovers and while that’s understandable that demographic is in the minority and continually shrinking. Everyone else is pretty excited about the new products and they certainly have the potential for higher profit margins. The only options for Ford to keep cars were to cancel most new products or build 2-3 new factories and hire hundreds of new workers just to keep producing vehicles in a shrinking market with little to no profit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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