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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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32 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

I’m not so sure Lightning is in as good a position as you suggest once the EV Silverado comes out about a year or so after Lightning. The Silverado will be on a dedicated EV platform and will apparently have better range. It will be out 2 to 3 years ahead of the NG Lightning. 

Except the Silverado is made by GM, a company that has done nothing well for decades now.

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2 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

I’m not so sure Lightning is in as good a position as you suggest once the EV Silverado comes out about a year or so after Lightning. The Silverado will be on a dedicated EV platform and will apparently have better range. It will be out 2 to 3 years ahead of the NG Lightning. 

Keep in mind that GM like Ford doesn’t want it’s EV trucks to take off so fast that most just replace existing ICE sales, this is an opportunity for both automakers to grow sales before the switchover swings into full effect.  In real terms, Ford is still a couple of years behind GM in establishing 1) it’s own dedicated battery supplies and 2) a dedicated BEV plant for full sized pickups and Utilities. I’m happy that reality is sinking in and changes are actually happening this year.

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On 12/24/2021 at 5:40 PM, jpd80 said:

Keep in mind that GM like Ford doesn’t want it’s EV trucks to take off so fast that most just replace existing ICE sales, this is an opportunity for both automakers to grow sales before the switchover swings into full effect.  In real terms, Ford is still a couple of years behind GM in establishing 1) it’s own dedicated battery supplies and 2) a dedicated BEV plant for full sized pickups and Utilities. I’m happy that reality is sinking in and changes are actually happening this year.

 

In fact, GM's so called Factory Zero is not a dedicated plant for pickups - it will build the Hummer p/u and SUV, the Silverado (initially), and the Cruise Origin.

 

GM is on the cusp of announcing a renovation of Orion plant to be a dedicated EV p/u plant, but has not yet put pen to paper:  https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-plans-invest-over-3-bln-ev-projects-michigan-wsj-2021-12-10/

 

They should be able to complete Orion before BOC comes online, but not by a "couple of years". Plus, GM have not yet announced a (rumored) battery plant for Michigan yet either, which would presumably go hand in hand with Orion. Again, not that far ahead of Ford.

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7 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

In fact, GM's so called Factory Zero is not a dedicated plant for pickups - it will build the Hummer p/u and SUV, the Silverado (initially), and the Cruise Origin.

 

GM is on the cusp of announcing a renovation of Orion plant to be a dedicated EV p/u plant, but has not yet put pen to paper:  https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-plans-invest-over-3-bln-ev-projects-michigan-wsj-2021-12-10/

 

They should be able to complete Orion before BOC comes online, but not by a "couple of years". Plus, GM have not yet announced a (rumored) battery plant for Michigan yet either, which would presumably go hand in hand with Orion. Again, not that far ahead of Ford.

GM is already a couple of years in front, Factory Zero is the equivalent of BOC Tennessee even though it will be building multiple vehicles, they’re all on very similar architecture. By the time BOC Tennessee gets rolling in early 2025, I think we’ll find that it will be multi product but with two final assembly lines.

 

For now, Ford will lead off with 15,000 lightnings in 2022, rising to 55,000 in 2023 an 80,000 in 2024. In contrast, GM will use 2022 to make upwards of 65,000 GMC Hummers before beginning skateboard Silverado at years end, so wee will see BEV Silverado  being produced head to head with Lightning, the plant at Orion is expected to produce mid-sized pickups and Utilities as well as another battery line.

 

Think about this, GM and it’s buyers has held steadfast to the belief that most Silverado 1500s should be V8 based (75%?), so now selling a BEV Silverado is going to be a bit of an earth shock moment for buyers, theymay not be ready to transition straight to an EV truck, I think this is where Ford’s plans have so much depth with hybrid Powerboost offering another bridge for buyers to try the benefits of electrification for a while before committing to a Lightning. I don’t see any transitional efforts from GM and that could be a real mistake……

Edited by jpd80
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On 12/25/2021 at 6:18 AM, Trader 10 said:

I’m not so sure Lightning is in as good a position as you suggest once the EV Silverado comes out about a year or so after Lightning. The Silverado will be on a dedicated EV platform and will apparently have better range. It will be out 2 to 3 years ahead of the NG Lightning. 

The EV Silverado comes out in about twelve months time or about eight months after Lightning, so the soon to be released Lightning will have just on two years to fend off the EV Silverado. That to me sounds like a doable situation to keep Ford in the EV game.

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Silverado EV will be unveiled early 2022 but won't go into production until late in the year so practically speaking it is a 2023 model. GM will be focused on delivering GMC Hummer in 2022 with unknown volume planned for Silverado and Sierra in 2023.

 

F-150 Lightning has supposedly started production (it was scheduled to start in Nov 2021) but delivery won't start until spring 2022. It has only 3 years planned life. TE1 Lightning will be on sale as 2025 model.

 

Not much is known about Silverado EV (or Ford's TE1 for that matter) but I think we can say that Ford is winning the PR war right now with Lightning. In fact, I've mentioned elsewhere that Ford's PR team has been winning a lot since Farley unleashed them. 

Edited by bzcat
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10 hours ago, bzcat said:

Silverado EV will be unveiled early 2022 but won't go into production until late in the year so practically speaking it is a 2023 model. GM will be focused on delivering GMC Hummer in 2022 with unknown volume planned for Silverado and Sierra in 2023.

 

F-150 Lightning has supposedly started production (it was scheduled to start in Nov 2021) but delivery won't start until spring 2022. It has only 3 years planned life. TE1 Lightning will be on sale as 2025 model.

 

Not much is known about Silverado EV (or Ford's TE1 for that matter) but I think we can say that Ford is winning the PR war right now with Lightning. In fact, I've mentioned elsewhere that Ford's PR team has been winning a lot since Farley unleashed them. 

An article linked to Autonews dated 9 December is saying that Silverado EV begins production in early 2023 and in dealerships later in 2023. I think you’ll find that the Lightnings being produced in the past two months are pre production units and that the actual Job 1 is still a few months off

 

https://www.autonews.com/cars-concepts/chevrolet-silverado-ev-production-slated-begin-2023

Edited by jpd80
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On 12/24/2021 at 3:18 PM, Trader 10 said:

I’m not so sure Lightning is in as good a position as you suggest once the EV Silverado comes out about a year or so after Lightning. The Silverado will be on a dedicated EV platform and will apparently have better range. It will be out 2 to 3 years ahead of the NG Lightning. 

 

All good points Trader 10 sir. I agree that GM is ahead technologically with Silverado EV compared to the 1st gen F-150 Lightning. The main reasons I think F-150 Lightning is still in a good position are.

  1. Ford has better PR than GM as bzcat mentioned. In the past, the company's masterful PR talents has made up for deficiencies much greater than the technical ones between 1st gen F-150 Lightning and upcoming Silverado EV.
  2. There is so much demand for capable BEV pickup trucks nowadays that Ford's ability to produce as many 1st gen F-150 Lightnings (and of course the batteries and other components that go into them) as they possibly can will be the only thing that really matters until the NG Lightning is ready. 
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3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

All good points Trader 10 sir. I agree that GM is ahead technologically with Silverado EV compared to the 1st gen F-150 Lightning. The main reasons I think F-150 Lightning is still in a good position are.

  1. Ford has better PR than GM as bzcat mentioned. In the past, the company's masterful PR talents has made up for deficiencies much greater than the technical ones between 1st gen F-150 Lightning and upcoming Silverado EV.
  2. There is so much demand for capable BEV pickup trucks nowadays that Ford's ability to produce as many 1st gen F-150 Lightnings (and of course the batteries and other components that go into them) as they possibly can will be the only thing that really matters until the NG Lightning is ready. 

 

No one has even seen the EV Silverado other than some Lightning like front light bar. Rivian just delayed their long range EVs for at least a year. So Lightning is way ahead if it appears at dealers this spring. Rivian I'd closer in size to Ranger than F159 and Dilverado is vaporware as of now. Doubt very much if Silverado will be available before end of 2023. 

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23 minutes ago, akirby said:

Based on what other than your usual GM cheerleading!

 

Silverado EV was designed from the ground up as a BEV, using GM's Ultium platform. It is not a BEV version of the ICE powered Silverado. In fact Silverado EV much more closely related to the GMC Hummer EV supertruck than any other GM pickup.

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15 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Silverado EV was designed from the ground up as a BEV, using GM's Ultium platform. It is not a BEV version of the ICE powered Silverado. In fact Silverado EV much more closely related to the GMC Hummer EV supertruck than any other GM pickup.

 

So is the BEV Silverado going to have more range, greater payload, more towing power, and the like than the F150. And a cheaper MSRP? If not, then who cares if it's NG or not. The Lightning will be on the market at least 12 months before Silverado. Silverado is always playing catchup with F150. 

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17 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

So is the BEV Silverado going to have more range, greater payload, more towing power, and the like than the F150. And a cheaper MSRP? If not, then who cares if it's NG or not. The Lightning will be on the market at least 12 months before Silverado. Silverado is always playing catchup with F150. 

Typical GM swagger, they’re either first or the best…….what else could Bara say…..

 

Lightning is such a cool name, pure marketing genius.

Edited by jpd80
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17 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

So is the BEV Silverado going to have more range, greater payload, more towing power, and the like than the F150. And a cheaper MSRP? If not, then who cares if it's NG or not. The Lightning will be on the market at least 12 months before Silverado. Silverado is always playing catchup with F150. 

 

Details on BEV Silverado should be released in 1 week.  All-Electric Silverado - Electric Truck | ChevroletSEV_teaser_XL_bc5c925878.jpg?imwidth=144

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2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Silverado EV was designed from the ground up as a BEV, using GM's Ultium platform. It is not a BEV version of the ICE powered Silverado.


So is Lightning.  They just used F150 sheet metal.

 

Quote

The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning has been in the works for about three years, and it is the first vehicle on a new dedicated electric-vehicle platform. The skateboard was designed from the ground up with a new frame positioning the battery pack between the rails, extending between the front and rear motors.

 

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3 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

No one has even seen the EV Silverado other than some Lightning like front light bar. Rivian just delayed their long range EVs for at least a year. So Lightning is way ahead if it appears at dealers this spring. Rivian I'd closer in size to Ranger than F159 and Dilverado is vaporware as of now. Doubt very much if Silverado will be available before end of 2023. 

 

There was this monstrosity at their EV presentation, who knows if it's Silverado or not.

 

GM CEO: Chevy Silverado EV will be “a high-volume entry” affordable for  fleets

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4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Lightning is such a cool name, pure marketing genius.

 

Yes sir jpd80, Ford reviving the Lightning name is among the most brilliant marketing & PR moves in the whole automotive industry recently. And it should ensure that Ford can take advantage of the incredible demand for BEV pickup trucks, both from existing pickup truck owners as well as "ordinary"/regular car/crossover buyers.

 

I hope "Lightning" becomes a sub-brand that Ford applies to future BEV pickup trucks other than F-150 from the company.

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Major Ford EV News from New York City today. The city bought 184 Mustang Mach-E GT for NYPD, Sheriff's Office, and several other city agencies. Order comes to $11.5 million, which means Ford successfully got NYC government to pay full retail price (or very close to it) for the vehicles. NYC Spends $11.5M on 184 184 Mustang Mach-E GT SUVs | Officer

 

Quote

"Smart investments in fleet electrification will help New York City break its dependence on fossil fuels," Dawn Pinnock, acting commissioner of the NYC DCAS said in the news release.

This latest purchase is an attempt by New York City to achieve an all-electric fleet by 2035 in its push to reduce carbon emissions that contribute to respiratory illnesses and greenhouse gases that lead to climate change, New York City officials said in the news release.

Keith Kerman, NYC chief fleet officer, said the news release, "This order of all electric Mach-Es will enable our law enforcement agencies to put electric models to the full test and work out maintenance, lights and sirens, charging, and other operational issues."

Edited by rperez817
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Report out today that best production rate Rivian can hope for for all of 2022 is 150 vehicles/day. That means most of their orders will not be fulfilled until 2024. Add in the long range battery delay. During that time they will be burning through cash and borrowing lots of money to build 2nd plant in Georgia. So for at least 2 years, best production estimate is maybe 40,000 vehicles/year. Wow, things will get tight for sure. 

 

Compare that to Ford that builds 850,000 ICE FSeries/year and probably 20,000 Lightnings this year. And another 50,000+ Mach Es for 2022. Stark contrast.

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23 hours ago, akirby said:


So is Lightning.  They just used F150 sheet metal.

 

 


Lightning doesn’t use a Skateboard but it does have a perimeter frame that is markedly different to the ladder frame used in ICE F150. The nett effect is the same,  this is the last stop in evolving an existing design towards a true skateboard chassis. If is say perimeter chassis three times, some dude with a panther is gonna get all excited….
2022-Ford-F-150-Lightning-electric-picku

Edited by jpd80
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On 12/29/2021 at 5:20 AM, jpd80 said:

An article linked to Autonews dated 9 December is saying that Silverado EV begins production in early 2023 and in dealerships later in 2023. I think you’ll find that the Lightnings being produced in the past two months are pre production units and that the actual Job 1 is still a few months off

 

https://www.autonews.com/cars-concepts/chevrolet-silverado-ev-production-slated-begin-2023


Have they moved into MP1 yet? Those are sale-able units and the majority can and probably will be shipped to dealers. 

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3 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

Report out today that best production rate Rivian can hope for for all of 2022 is 150 vehicles/day. That means most of their orders will not be fulfilled until 2024. Add in the long range battery delay. During that time they will be burning through cash and borrowing lots of money to build 2nd plant in Georgia. So for at least 2 years, best production estimate is maybe 40,000 vehicles/year. Wow, things will get tight for sure. 

 

Compare that to Ford that builds 850,000 ICE FSeries/year and probably 20,000 Lightnings this year. And another 50,000+ Mach Es for 2022. Stark contrast.


Is that because of their production process or because they can't get enough workers to run the line? 

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17 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Is that because of their production process or because they can't get enough workers to run the line? 

 

Both. R.J. Scaringe said during the Rivian 3Q 2021 earnings call that "global supply-chain constraints, the COVID-19 pandemic, a tight labor market, and short-term issues around building electric battery modules" are impacting the launch and production ramp up of R1T, R1S, and delivery vans.

Edited by rperez817
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