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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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42 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

As for skateboard design vs unibody and driving experience…why would it be any different then C platform Ford Ice product being used on the Focus and Escape/Kuga?
 

A skateboard will still have different suspension tuning and electric motor power levels, just like ICE products…all a skateboard platform does is allow for better manufacturing processes vs a unibody, not wholesale dumbing down of the driving experience 

Lower center of gravity from battery placement?

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5 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


I was driving behind 2 Lightnings on my way (by pure coincidence) to Dearborn this morning and it looked to me like they ride just a little bit lower than the gas powered F-150. 
 

unrelated sidebar: one of those 2 didn't have the light bar across the tailgate for some reason and IMO it looked much better than the one that did. 

 

Also, the base model (whatever it's called) doesn't have the front or rear lightbar.

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2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Also, the base model (whatever it's called) doesn't have the front or rear lightbar.


Not entirely. The front light bar is standard across the board for retail models. The Pro model doesn't have the front light bar and my god does it look so much better. 

Edited by fuzzymoomoo
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On 12/30/2021 at 9:17 PM, jpd80 said:

The difference will be apparent when you see TE1 skateboard, Mike Levine posted this on Twitter,

”The BEV-exclusive TE1 platform should be superior in every aspect compared to the present F-150 Lightning riding on the gasoline model’s modified chassis (pictured). Image: Twitter/Mike Levine

 

I've always understood that trucks based on a frame have built in superiority to unit body vehicles for certain types of usage and work. Was that simply marketing on the part of the OEMs to justify their cash cows, or is there a basis for that idea?

 

If we stipulate there is truly a basis to BOF construction for a pickup (I won't know what you think yet as I write this), what do you guys think about this comment from Levine? Could it be possible that while TE1 will indeed be a skateboard chassis, it will still have elements of BOF construction because it is intended for truck duty, and therefore will benefit from BOF elements to perform its intended task(s)? This might also give Ford a distinct marketing edge against GM, as I haven't seen any mention that the Hummer (and Silverado by extension) have such an element to their chassis. Interested to hear your thoughts.

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14 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Not entirely. The front light bar is standard across the board for retail models. The Pro model doesn't have the front light bar and my god does it look so much better. 

 

Ah, I remember seeing a review with what must've been the Pro one and I thought it was a base one.

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7 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

I've always understood that trucks based on a frame have built in superiority to unit body vehicles for certain types of usage and work. Was that simply marketing on the part of the OEMs to justify their cash cows, or is there a basis for that idea?

 

If we stipulate there is truly a basis to BOF construction for a pickup (I won't know what you think yet as I write this), what do you guys think about this comment from Levine? Could it be possible that while TE1 will indeed be a skateboard chassis, it will still have elements of BOF construction because it is intended for truck duty, and therefore will benefit from BOF elements to perform its intended task(s)? This might also give Ford a distinct marketing edge against GM, as I haven't seen any mention that the Hummer (and Silverado by extension) have such an element to their chassis. Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

Skateboard is also body on frame.  The question is how strong is the skateboard compared to a traditional frame.

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10 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

I've always understood that trucks based on a frame have built in superiority to unit body vehicles for certain types of usage and work. Was that simply marketing on the part of the OEMs to justify their cash cows, or is there a basis for that idea?

 

If we stipulate there is truly a basis to BOF construction for a pickup (I won't know what you think yet as I write this), what do you guys think about this comment from Levine? Could it be possible that while TE1 will indeed be a skateboard chassis, it will still have elements of BOF construction because it is intended for truck duty, and therefore will benefit from BOF elements to perform its intended task(s)? This might also give Ford a distinct marketing edge against GM, as I haven't seen any mention that the Hummer (and Silverado by extension) have such an element to their chassis. Interested to hear your thoughts.

It’s not that simple, some skateboards have a similar functions to body on frame vehicles while others are basically a platform for holding the batteries and connect to the front and rear drive units but still require the body to be a structural member for suspension points, take a look at this Hyundai for example…….there are many different ways that the base structure can be designed, I suspect that some evolution of unitary shells may be at play with the example below but yes, some skateboards on heavier vehicles will act as a BOF chassis. 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.c83f374784e732176d6075755c155026.jpeg


Also compare that to a Tesla S skateboard, I doubt that Ford or GM would build a car this way….

 

image.thumb.jpeg.a62c49d94882c2cf630e36dd9ffd8686.jpeg

 

As vehicles get bigger, going to BOF makes sense in order to achieve necessary attributes and expectations, the choice then becomes packing batteries around a ladder frame or switching to a more accomodating perimeter frame (Crown Victoria style) and loading batteries inside the frame… everything old becomes new. Lightning’s frame didn’t require all that much change from an ICE F150 so it was a natural evolution that saved a ton of development costs while keeping existing suppliers in the loop - brilliant move.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.ede7ebbcaad5b88a0dedf6a733deb31b.jpeg

 

 

And finally, the  e Transit that keeps the ladder frame and mounts the battery below the frame

 

image.thumb.jpeg.71014eceeb2f684d4faa0d205732e5bb.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.3c5f0865e146ba3e4d4f51f1a13ed740.jpeg

Edited by jpd80
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Good editorial from John McElroy of Autoline Daily regarding the BEV War between Ford and GM. McElroy said that Ford is winning the 1st round of the war, but GM will be ahead by 2025. The BEV War Between General Motors and Ford (wardsauto.com)

 

Ford is winning the first round in the EV war against GM. It will probably hold onto that lead through 2022 and maybe 2023. But in 2024 GM will surge ahead as its strategic plan fully blossoms. It will be clearly ahead of Ford in 2025 and 2026.

That’s when Ford will start to catch up, or at least have the resources to do so. And that’s when we’ll have a clear picture of whose strategy is superior, or who executed it the best.

The battle will be intense. The animosity will be palpable. The hatred will continue. And all of this will push both of them to do better than they would without it.

 

What McElroy doesn't mention is that the biggest rival for both Ford and GM is and will continue to be Tesla - not one another. Jim Farley recognizes and respects the competitive threat Tesla represents, Mary Barra not so much. So despite GM's commitment to go all-in with BEV in 2018 as McElroy indicated and its technological advantages over Ford, Barra's misguided prediction that it can beat Tesla by 2025 may be GM's undoing.

 

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21 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

Good editorial from John McElroy of Autoline Daily regarding the BEV War between Ford and GM. McElroy said that Ford is winning the 1st round of the war, but GM will be ahead by 2025. The BEV War Between General Motors and Ford (wardsauto.com)

 

 

 

 

What McElroy doesn't mention is that the biggest rival for both Ford and GM is and will continue to be Tesla - not one another. Jim Farley recognizes and respects the competitive threat Tesla represents, Mary Barra not so much. So despite GM's commitment to go all-in with BEV in 2018 as McElroy indicated and its technological advantages over Ford, Barra's misguided prediction that it can beat Tesla by 2025 may be GM's undoing.

 

 

How about Barra having an answer for the Ford Bronco, BS, Maverick, and all Ford's hybrid and plugin models that arguably fit more consumer needs. I don't think the Chevy Trailblazer was a good answer. And $100,000 Hummer is a distraction at best. GM makes all their money on huge SUVs that are a hard sell with $4 gas. All the above is vaporware as of now. And no Equinox, Blazer, Silverado hybrids like Ford and Toyota. 

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34 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

How about Barra having an answer for the Ford Bronco, BS, Maverick, and all Ford's hybrid and plugin models that arguably fit more consumer needs. 

 

If GM comes up with BEV competitors for those Ford products before Ford introduces BEV versions of them, advantage goes to GM. But Barra and other GM executives haven't yet made any product announcements in that regard. So Ford has a short term advantage over GM in the last days of the ICE age.

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54 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

If GM comes up with BEV competitors for those Ford products before Ford introduces BEV versions of them, advantage goes to GM. But Barra and other GM executives haven't yet made any product announcements in that regard. So Ford has a short term advantage over GM in the last days of the ICE age.

 

You make it sound like a given that ALL buyers are going to flock to only BEVs no matter what the price and segment. Ford is predicting MAYBE 40% BEV production by 2030. There will be lots of popular segments in 2030 that will not be BEV based. What the happy mix is no one knows until we get there. But I consider 40% BEV penetration optimistic at best. And GMs claim of 100% by then is ridiculous. Certainly investors don't trust Barra's claims, but they on board with Farley as their stock keeps popping to new highs. 

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2 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

You make it sound like a given that ALL buyers are going to flock to only BEVs no matter what the price and segment. Ford is predicting MAYBE 40% BEV production by 2030. There will be lots of popular segments in 2030 that will not be BEV based. What the happy mix is no one knows until we get there. But I consider 40% BEV penetration optimistic at best. And GMs claim of 100% by then is ridiculous. Certainly investors don't trust Barra's claims, but they on board with Farley as their stock keeps popping to new highs. 

 

Magical Thinking about China, Lithium and the Rare Earths in the ICE to EV Transformation (investorintel.com)

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2 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

ALL buyers are going to flock to only BEVs no matter what the price and segment.

 

That's a foregone conclusion. Both Ford and GM have embraced a future characterized by 100% electric vehicles, but have different strategies to get there. 

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10 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

How about Barra having an answer for the Ford Bronco, BS, Maverick, and all Ford's hybrid and plugin models that arguably fit more consumer needs. I don't think the Chevy Trailblazer was a good answer. And $100,000 Hummer is a distraction at best. GM makes all their money on huge SUVs that are a hard sell with $4 gas. All the above is vaporware as of now. And no Equinox, Blazer, Silverado hybrids like Ford and Toyota. 

From GM’s 4th quarter sales report today::

  • Sales of GMC Yukon, Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban were up a combined 26 percent to more than 238,000 vehicles.
  • Cadillac Escalade had its best sales since 2007.

$3 or $4 gas isn’t much of an impediment for those with the means to buy $70k and up vehicles. 

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For the past ten years, GM has doubled down on the importance of its V8 Truck and SUV buyers, more than anything else, those buyers bring in the lion’s share of profits for GM…….and now they are going to totally rewrite their business in the next few years, I don’t see any evidence of GM trying to transition those buyers, it’s like a huge earth shock coming and I don’t think those buyers are ready to give up their V8s so the next few years are going to be very interesting….it concerns me that GM chose to lead off with the Hummer, maybe showing their true self?

 

Ford on the other hand,  has been transitioning buyers for years, the majority of its large vehicles now being turbo V6s but also some V8s for buyers who still want them and in the commercial range where larger capacity makes sense. There’s a decent smattering of hybrids to encourage buyers into more fuel efficient vehicles as a hedge against rising gas prices and the coming electric transition..Mach E order books are full and Lightning reservations exceeded all expectations, so Ford is away to a good start, it just needs to build momentum and possibly bring forward plans for VW based BEVs before Tesla gets too much lead current and near delivery vehicles.

 

Both GM and Ford are spending tens of billions on new EVs and the battery manufacture to support them, it will be an interesting race to see how many customers they get from switching to BEVs versus how many will want to stay with ICEs and hybrids.

 

While all of that is going on, the field is still virtually open to Tesla to keep increasing production and sales, last year was over 900,000 sales globally without any input from Texas, Germany or Las Vegas giga plant (Semi) but I see that changing this year with sales set to double, all in areas not really being effectively covered by legacy automakers.

Edited by jpd80
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The big issue in EV market penetration is being avoided by everyone. It is affordability. At this moment a significant portion of the market is being priced out of the used car market, let alone new cars, and none of the automakers (in the US at least) seem to acknowledge that a large portion of the market cannot afford $40K and up vehicles. I can see where in 10 years or so Ford and GM can have 40%EV penetration, but only because total sales will be down due to only covering the upper end of the market. Face it, the only way way sales are at the level they are at today is low interest and 72 month and up loans. When money tightens up the automakers who find a way to serve the market for $30K and under and make money doing it will thrive.

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54 minutes ago, lfeg said:

The big issue in EV market penetration is being avoided by everyone. It is affordability. At this moment a significant portion of the market is being priced out of the used car market, let alone new cars, and none of the automakers (in the US at least) seem to acknowledge that a large portion of the market cannot afford $40K and up vehicles. I can see where in 10 years or so Ford and GM can have 40%EV penetration, but only because total sales will be down due to only covering the upper end of the market. Face it, the only way way sales are at the level they are at today is low interest and 72 month and up loans. When money tightens up the automakers who find a way to serve the market for $30K and under and make money doing it will thrive.

 

GM claim they're doing it:

Quote

On Wednesday, during the 2022 Consumer Electronics Show keynote address GM CEO Mary Barra revealed the electric 2024 Chevrolet Equinox EV.

 

The executive said a full reveal will come later, along with an electric Chevrolet Blazer crossover SUV.

Barra said the Equinox EV will go on sale in the fall of 2023 with a price around $30,000.chevrolet-equinox_100822953_h.jpg

Edited by Harley Lover
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1134654_2024-chevrolet-equinox-ev-previewed-arrives-in-2023-for-30-000
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1 hour ago, lfeg said:

The big issue in EV market penetration is being avoided by everyone. It is affordability. At this moment a significant portion of the market is being priced out of the used car market, let alone new cars, and none of the automakers (in the US at least) seem to acknowledge that a large portion of the market cannot afford $40K and up vehicles. I can see where in 10 years or so Ford and GM can have 40%EV penetration, but only because total sales will be down due to only covering the upper end of the market. Face it, the only way way sales are at the level they are at today is low interest and 72 month and up loans. When money tightens up the automakers who find a way to serve the market for $30K and under and make money doing it will thrive.

Many won’t see it coming but the current jacked up pricing of both new and used vehicles is mostly affecting ICE vehicles, that makes the jump to BEV an easier proposition especially if they are leased with high residual buy back pricing.  The volume of BEVs is small now so they are being taken up by early adopters who are less price sensitive but I suspect that more will join the queue if ICE prices are kept higher…

 

The Equinox EV mentioned above is just the start of more affordable BEVs, pricing will encourage people to consider the size of the vehicle they actually need….

Edited by jpd80
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3 hours ago, lfeg said:

The big issue in EV market penetration is being avoided by everyone. It is affordability. At this moment a significant portion of the market is being priced out of the used car market, let alone new cars, and none of the automakers (in the US at least) seem to acknowledge that a large portion of the market cannot afford $40K and up vehicles. I can see where in 10 years or so Ford and GM can have 40%EV penetration, but only because total sales will be down due to only covering the upper end of the market. Face it, the only way way sales are at the level they are at today is low interest and 72 month and up loans. When money tightens up the automakers who find a way to serve the market for $30K and under and make money doing it will thrive.


I’ve pointed that out many times.  Until prices come down the market is limited.  But it’s not a case of mfrs not understanding it’s more a case of the technology being too expensive until recently and the mfrs trying to recoup huge development costs and prioritizing higher revenue projects.  It will change over the next few years.

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4 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

GM claim they're doing it:

 

Curious if that is before or after tax rebates? Also how is the equipment levels on them-I've heard complaints about the F-150 Lightning Pro model being bare bones, but its also aimed at the fleet market in its defense. 

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35 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Curious if that is before or after tax rebates? Also how is the equipment levels on them-I've heard complaints about the F-150 Lightning Pro model being bare bones, but its also aimed at the fleet market in its defense. 

 

Funny part is, I'd be totally happy with with a stock Lightning Pro.  It has everything I want (though I could be tempted by the bigger 300 mile range battery).  Mind you, my daily driver (when there's no snow on the ground) is a bare-bones 1994 F-150 2WD, so a Lightning would seem like a luxury truck. 

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4 hours ago, akirby said:


I’ve pointed that out many times.  Until prices come down the market is limited.  But it’s not a case of mfrs not understanding it’s more a case of the technology being too expensive until recently and the mfrs trying to recoup huge development costs and prioritizing higher revenue projects.  It will change over the next few years.

 

Starting price of most new EV coming to market now is at or near the median price of all new vehicles so we are basically there. The constrain is supply, not demand and so as you noted, manufacturers are choosing to capture the space above the median price first with things like CUVs, luxury cars, and pickup trucks that tend to attract pricing premium. But that is mostly an US-market phenomenon. 

 

In Europe, the bulk of the EV and PHEV market is small to midsize cars and CUVs. And in China, the market is focused on low cost EV which GM dominates. 

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5 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Curious if that is before or after tax rebates? 

 

If you take her statement at face value, that price is before rebates: "the Equinox EV will go on sale in the fall of 2023 with a price around $30,000."

 

However, we're talking about an auto exec, so anything is possible.

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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Starting price of most new EV coming to market now is at or near the median price of all new vehicles so we are basically there. 


Think about what you just wrote.  By definition, half of the vehicles currently sold today are cheaper than the current EVs some by $15kk or more.

 

Do you really think somebody who can only afford a $20k or $25K vehicle can just magically afford a $35K BEV?  

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17 minutes ago, akirby said:


Think about what you just wrote.  By definition, half of the vehicles currently sold today are cheaper than the current EVs some by $15kk or more.

 

Do you really think somebody who can only afford a $20k or $25K vehicle can just magically afford a $35K BEV?  

 

Of course not.

 

What I'm saying is in the US market, because demand for EV far outstrip supply on the upper 50% of the market, car companies are choosing not to address the half of the market that is below median price. 

 

In other markets as I noted, the bulk of EV sold are below median price because demand profile in those markets are different.

 

BTW, there are EV and PHEV for sale under $30k... let's not pretend Bolt, Leaf, or Niro doesn't exist. EV in those lower segments will get better as well. 

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