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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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37 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

If you take her statement at face value, that price is before rebates: "the Equinox EV will go on sale in the fall of 2023 with a price around $30,000."

 

However, we're talking about an auto exec, so anything is possible.

 

GM ran out of tax credit anyway so I think it's obvious that they are talking about MSRP, not after tax credit effective price. 

 

Again, I keep saying it but people just ignore it... GM is the #2 seller of EV worldwide with a small but reasonable shot of passing Tesla in 2022, and they have been selling lots of low cost EVs in China. If you want to bet on a car company in the US market to deliver a $30k CUV with price parity to an identical size ICE CUV, the clear betting favorite has to be GM.

Edited by bzcat
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19 minutes ago, bzcat said:

If you want to bet on a car company in the US market to deliver a $30k CUV with price parity to an identical size ICE CUV, the clear betting favorite has to be GM.

 

Yes sir, that's a sensible bet. However, betting that GM will overtake Tesla in the U.S. market for BEV sales is not.

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36 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir, that's a sensible bet. However, betting that GM will overtake Tesla in the U.S. market for BEV sales is not.

 

I didn't say US. GM could overtake Tesla worldwide if Wuling Mini EV sales continue at its current pace and Tesla continues to experience delays in launching new products.

 

In 2021, GM sold 370k Wuling Mini EV through Nov 2021... fairly sure it cleared 400k in with December volume included. In 2022, GM is planning to double the sales of Wuling Mini EV in China alone.... plus whatever else EV they sale in China and North America (Chevy Bolt, Bolt EUV, Buikc Velite, GMC Hummer, Cadillac Lyriq etc).

 

Tesla sold 897k cars in 2021 worldwide.

 

 

Screenshot 2022-01-06 145022.png

Edited by bzcat
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28 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Again, I keep saying it but people just ignore it... GM is the #2 seller of EV worldwide with a small but reasonable shot of passing Tesla in 2022, and they have been selling lots of low cost EVs in China. If you want to bet on a car company in the US market to deliver a $30k CUV with price parity to an identical size ICE CUV, the clear betting favorite has to be GM.

 

I agree with this, but the question is whether GM can make a compelling BEV that people really want to own.  The Bolt currently sells for $31,000 and seems to be totally forgotten and rarely mentioned (outside of the bad press for the battery recall). 

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13 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

I agree with this, but the question is whether GM can make a compelling BEV that people really want to own.  The Bolt currently sells for $31,000 and seems to be totally forgotten and rarely mentioned (outside of the bad press for the battery recall). 

 

Agree 100% - Bolt is good but not great product but the bottom line is the market in the US didn't ask for a tall hatchback EV. It would like if Ford made another C-Max instead of Mach E... I think we can all agree that Mach E turned out much better than what Ford started with.

 

The preview of upcoming Equinox looks pretty compelling for the same price as Bolt. 

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

Agree 100% - Bolt is good but not great product but the bottom line is the market in the US didn't ask for a tall hatchback EV. It would like if Ford made another C-Max instead of Mach E... I think we can all agree that Mach E turned out much better than what Ford started with.

 

The preview of upcoming Equinox looks pretty compelling for the same price as Bolt. 

 

I think it's great that GM is finally coming out with an EV Equinox. Back a couple years ago I had a brand new Equinox rental, and liked it except having to gas up every 300 miles.

 

My Escape hybrid goes 600+ miles between fill ups. And Escape plug in can do most everyday driving in EV mode only and get more than 600 miles on tank of gas. And gas stations on every major corner.

 

So about time GM electrified its Equinox. The ICE Equinox must have small gas tank. I seemed to be getting 30mpg, but below a quarter tank after 300 miles. Pain in the ass. 

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6 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

I think it's great that GM is finally coming out with an EV Equinox. Back a couple years ago I had a brand new Equinox rental, and liked it except having to gas up every 300 miles.

 

My Escape hybrid goes 600+ miles between fill ups. And Escape plug in can do most everyday driving in EV mode only and get more than 600 miles on tank of gas. And gas stations on every major corner.

 

So about time GM electrified its Equinox. The ICE Equinox must have small gas tank. I seemed to be getting 30mpg, but below a quarter tank after 300 miles. Pain in the ass. 

I sometimes wonder about Focus EV, what it would have been with a better battery pack……

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

I sometimes wonder about Focus EV, what it would have been with a better battery pack……

 

For a compliance car, Focus EV was pretty good. But the market has move so far beyond it (at least in the US). Incidentally, a lot of Focus EV ended up as used imports in Europe because the form factor was just what that market desired. 

 

Pretty sure C2 Focus will be supplemented by a MEB vehicle in Europe by 2025... Probably as a CUV like the new Renault Megane E Tech. 

 

1199px-Renault_Megane_E-Tech_IAA_2021_1X

Edited by bzcat
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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

For a compliance car, Focus EV was pretty good. But the market has move so far beyond it (at least in the US). Incidentally, a lot of Focus EV ended up as used imports in Europe because the form factor was just what that market desired. 

 

Pretty sure C2 Focus will be supplemented by a MEB vehicle in Europe by 2025... Probably as a CUV like the new Renault Megane E Tech. 

 

1199px-Renault_Megane_E-Tech_IAA_2021_1X

Yes I can imagine an MEB based Focus EV as the second vehicle out of Cologne,

the first will probably be Fiesta EV.

Edited by jpd80
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15 hours ago, mackinaw said:

I agree with this, but the question is whether GM can make a compelling BEV that people really want to own.  The Bolt currently sells for $31,000 and seems to be totally forgotten and rarely mentioned (outside of the bad press for the battery recall). 

 

GM already makes a compelling BEV that people really want to own with the Bolt and Bolt EUV. It isn't "totally forgotten". Prior to the introduction of Mustang Mach-E, Bolt was the best-selling non-Tesla BEV in the U.S. market. Also, customer satisfaction ratings for Bolt have been very high, at least prior to the battery recall fiasco.

 

But designing and making excellent BEV isn't the question with GM. Whether GM can do promotion and advertising for BEV properly is. Even today, GM spends a lot more promoting fossil fuel swilling pickup trucks and full size SUVs in advertising, auto shows, etc. than they do for BEV. That may change as Ultium based BEV ramp up production. But for a company that's "all in" on BEV, it's concerning.

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

GM already makes a compelling BEV that people really want to own with the Bolt and Bolt EUV. It isn't "totally forgotten". Prior to the introduction of Mustang Mach-E, Bolt was the best-selling non-Tesla BEV in the U.S. market.

The cheapest new Bolts/bolt euvs are advertised for thousands below MSRP around the US on CarGurus website.  I can't say I have seen another vehicle advertised below sticker in the last few months.  This seems to suggest the Bolts are not compelling vehicles.

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17 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

I didn't say US. GM could overtake Tesla worldwide if Wuling Mini EV sales continue at its current pace and Tesla continues to experience delays in launching new products.

 

In 2021, GM sold 370k Wuling Mini EV through Nov 2021... fairly sure it cleared 400k in with December volume included. In 2022, GM is planning to double the sales of Wuling Mini EV in China alone.... plus whatever else EV they sale in China and North America (Chevy Bolt, Bolt EUV, Buikc Velite, GMC Hummer, Cadillac Lyriq etc).

 

Tesla sold 897k cars in 2021 worldwide.

 

 

Screenshot 2022-01-06 145022.png

 

Some facts about this Wuling mini EV:



The Mini EV is equipped with a 9.2 kWh battery capable of a NEDC range of 120 km (75 mi) or a 13.8kWh battery capable of a NEDC range of 170 km (110 mi).[6]

The Mini EV can seat four people and is powered by a single electric motor producing 13 kW (17.4 hp) and 85 Nm (62.7 lbf.ft) of torque with rear-wheel drive. It has a top speed of 100 km/h (62 mph) and an estimated range of 170 km (110 mi).

 

A vehicle with a 110 mile range at most that seats 4, with a top speed of 62 mph. It's not a golf cart, but it's certainly not a credible alternative in the U.S.. Oh, and it looks like this: Wuling-Hong-Guang-MINI-EV-scaled-1.jpg

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4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

GM already makes a compelling BEV that people really want to own with the Bolt and Bolt EUV. It isn't "totally forgotten". Prior to the introduction of Mustang Mach-E, Bolt was the best-selling non-Tesla BEV in the U.S. market. Also, customer satisfaction ratings for Bolt have been very high, at least prior to the battery recall fiasco.

 

But designing and making excellent BEV isn't the question with GM. Whether GM can do promotion and advertising for BEV properly is. Even today, GM spends a lot more promoting fossil fuel swilling pickup trucks and full size SUVs in advertising, auto shows, etc. than they do for BEV. That may change as Ultium based BEV ramp up production. But for a company that's "all in" on BEV, it's concerning.

 

Do you actually believe what you type sometimes?  Lol.

 

It was the "best selling non Tesla" because there was what?  2 or 3 non-Bolt BEV models on the market?   One of which is/was the overpriced Jag?

 

The vast majority of the US market doesn't want a shoebox car.

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6 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Some facts about this Wuling mini EV:

 

 

A vehicle with a 110 mile range at most that seats 4, with a top speed of 62 mph. It's not a golf cart, but it's certainly not a credible alternative in the U.S.. Oh, and it looks like this: Wuling-Hong-Guang-MINI-EV-scaled-1.jpg

 

It also costs about $5000. It's not what the US market wants but it does demonstrate that GM knows how to make affordable EV, which was my point. And it has such a big lead on affordable EV in China that it cannot be dismissed as a neophyte.  

 

By comparison, Mazda charges $34k for MX-30 with the 100 mile range in the US. Let say making a bigger Wuling Mini that will pass US safety regs while keeping range at 110 miles will roughly double its price... you are still at $10k vs. Mazda's pathetic attempt at $34k. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Some facts about this Wuling mini EV:

 

 

A vehicle with a 110 mile range at most that seats 4, with a top speed of 62 mph. It's not a golf cart, but it's certainly not a credible alternative in the U.S.. Oh, and it looks like this: Wuling-Hong-Guang-MINI-EV-scaled-1.jpg

 

better then a moped/motorcycle though!

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

It also costs about $5000. It's not what the US market wants but it does demonstrate that GM knows how to make affordable EV, which was my point. And it has such a big lead on affordable EV in China that it cannot be dismissed as a neophyte.  

 

By comparison, Mazda charges $34k for MX-30 with the 100 mile range in the US. Let say making a bigger Wuling Mini that will pass US safety regs while keeping range at 110 miles will roughly double its price... you are still at $10k vs. Mazda's pathetic attempt at $34k. 

 

But in the grand scheme of things can it actually scale up the Wuling Mini to make it workable in other parts of the world? It might just be a nicer golf cart that is a step up from a motorcycle or moped for some families. 

 

From what I saw, The MX-30 was actually developed by Changan?

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29 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

better then a moped/motorcycle though!

 

That's what Wuling Hongguang Mini EV primarily competes against in the China domestic market. The product is part of a category of urban micromobility vehicles that also includes e-bikes and electric scooters. 

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On 1/7/2022 at 3:36 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

But in the grand scheme of things can it actually scale up the Wuling Mini to make it workable in other parts of the world? It might just be a nicer golf cart that is a step up from a motorcycle or moped for some families. 

 

From what I saw, The MX-30 was actually developed by Changan?

 

You can't scale up Wuling Mini per se. That was rhetorical... to demonstrate how much GM is ahead of other OEM like Mazda. For one, GM will not bother making a 100 mile EV for the US market because that's not something we want.

 

And no, MX-30 has nothing to do with Chang'an. It was developed in Hiroshima by a crack team of Mazda engineers who apparently has never seen or driven or heard of Tesla. Even by compliance car standards, it is spectacularly bad... Ford Focus EV and VW eGolf had more range than this thing. To put it in context, Mazda released a compliance EV in 2021 that had lower range and higher MSRP than Ford Focus EV from a decade ago. It is bizarre.

 

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2022-mazda-mx-30-review/ 

Edited by bzcat
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On 1/7/2022 at 6:50 PM, rperez817 said:

 

That's what Wuling Hongguang Mini EV primarily competes against in the China domestic market. The product is part of a category of urban micromobility vehicles that also includes e-bikes and electric scooters. 

 

Now E bikes are the rage. My wife bought one and it has top speed of 28mph. They are all over the streets here. Many come with big baskets and saddle bags that will hold groceries. Lots of new bike companies springing up all over selling them online. In  Master 55+ warm weather communities E bikes will give EVs a run for the money. 

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On 1/7/2022 at 6:36 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

But in the grand scheme of things can it actually scale up the Wuling Mini to make it workable in other parts of the world? It might just be a nicer golf cart that is a step up from a motorcycle or moped for some families. 

 

From what I saw, The MX-30 was actually developed by Changan?

 

Atomic micro minis are popular here that look like shrunken cars that come with AC, wipers, stereos, and the like. They pretty much stick to the golf cart paths, but can go on 35mph roads if licensed. Even some of the car dealers sell and service them as 2nd vehicles. 

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24 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

Now E bikes are the rage. My wife bought one and it has top speed of 28mph. They are all over the streets here. Many come with big baskets and saddle bags that will hold groceries. Lots of new bike companies springing up all over selling them online. In  Master 55+ warm weather communities E bikes will give EVs a run for the money. 

 

Good info FordBuyer sir. Ford piloted an e-bike sharing program in San Francisco a few years ago called GoBike. Ford eventually sold it to Lyft.

 

Maybe Ford will apply what it learned from GoBikes to new micromobility service offerings focused on 55+ warm weather communities.

 

gettyimages-866244720.jpg

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I just saw that in December, Tesla sold over 70,000 vehicles made in China

but what they don’t say is whether they have been delivered….

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/11/tesla-sold-record-70847-china-made-cars-in-december-china-group-says.html


 

Quote

Tu Le, Beijing-based managing director at Sino Auto Insights, said the December numbers showed that the Tesla brand in China remained strong and that it was also operationally “impressive” given that the Shanghai factory had the capacity to make around 42,000 vehicles a month on average.

“They were well over that number in December. And this is despite the chip and battery shortages that other EV makers dealt with.”

 

Edited by jpd80
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