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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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Hands up all the people that think a $30,000 Equinox is profitable….

I think that GM was forced to respond to ford and Tesla skipping away from them and decided to pull a price buster.

If you look at GM’s EVs over the next few years, they’re going to be lower volume higher priced/ profit.

Agreed that Ford won’t be making many Lightnings this year but enough to stir the pot with massive

ADMs all over the internet, the irony is that some (enough) people will pay to get one…..

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Winnebago Industries announced its e-RV concept vehicle today at the 2022 Florida RV SuperShow in Tampa. This vehicle is based on Ford Transit chassis and Lightning eMotors powertrain. It is the 1st all electric, zero emissions RV from a major RV manufacturer. Winnebago Industries Reveals e-RV, All-Electric Motorhome Concept at Florida RV Super Show - Winnebago Industries (gcs-web.com)

 

winnebago-industries-e-rv-still-copy-164

 

The Winnebago Industries e-RV concept vehicle is an entirely new, all-electric, zero emission RV that incorporates an advanced drive train and battery package that also powers all the living area systems of the coach. Key features of the e-RV concept vehicle include:

  • In-vehicle appliances aligned to optimize energy usage and battery performance while maximizing comfort and functionality. Key elements include 350-volt DC power for the water heater and roof mounted air conditioner with heat pump, 110-volt AC for the induction cooktop and the refrigerator, which can also operate on 12-volt DC power for enhanced flexibility and convenience.
  • Flexible battery charging source capabilities, that allow for charging at home, campgrounds and dedicated charging stations. Charging time is around 45-minutes at high-current charging stations.
  • Evolving battery technology and applications continue to drive capabilities and mileage range increases are anticipated as the concept vehicle further develops. Currently, an industry standard, 86-kWh battery configuration provides a range of 125 miles while powering on-board systems. This range will meet the needs of a majority (54%) of new RV buyers who prefer to make trips under 200 miles (1).
  • An integrated control system that enables operation of subsystems, optimizes load and efficiency, and displays system information and controls on a digital display. The control systems can be monitored through a tablet or smartphone app.
  • High performance wireless connectivity through a residential grade wi-fi network via dual-modem router that enables high data streaming levels.
  • Premium galley amenities including a modern, marine-grade refrigerator, slide out induction cooktop, and matte black sink fixtures. The bathroom includes a toilet and contemporary fixtures including a detachable, handheld shower head.
  • Materials throughout the e-RV concept vehicle are selected with a preference for eco-friendly and sustainable options. This includes sustainable, recycled cork-rubber flooring and woolen wall appliques to enhance thermal and wall insulation.
  • A chassis based on a readily available Ford Transit platform that has been modified with an advanced electrical power system from Lightning e Motors that powers the drivetrain, vehicle controls and living quarters.
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6 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

  • Evolving battery technology and applications continue to drive capabilities and mileage range increases are anticipated as the concept vehicle further develops. Currently, an industry standard, 86-kWh battery configuration provides a range of 125 miles while powering on-board systems. This range will meet the needs of a majority (54%) of new RV buyers who prefer to make trips under 200 miles (1).

 

Find this kinda interesting-when I think RV, I think long distance road trips for vacation or retirees living on the road driving around the country. Not a 2-3 hour drive. 

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Find this kinda interesting-when I think RV, I think long distance road trips for vacation or retirees living on the road driving around the country. Not a 2-3 hour drive. 

Same here.  The transit is already limited in GVWR.  Adding an 86kwh battery isn’t going to leave much payload.  A powerboost hybrid would be a better choice.  Less impact to GVWR, long range, and plenty of electric power for accessories.

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Find this kinda interesting-when I think RV, I think long distance road trips for vacation or retirees living on the road driving around the country. Not a 2-3 hour drive. 

 

Probably depends on class/size, but in general I'd agree.

 

Maybe smaller sizes are more "hoppers" jumping from place to place on shorter routes, while bigger RVs are the more "long haul" type we all think of when we hear RV.

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23 hours ago, AGR said:

It is a concept, so who knows how much makes it to the finished product.  
 

There is also a Mercedes sprinter RV with 200 miles of range.  What caught my attention was it had a gas cooktop.  Everything was designed to save weight to extend the battery range.  For gas or diesel powered RVs it is all about getting the maximum GVWR so they can add more luxury features…like granite countertops.

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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

So when are we going to see more Ford BEV products shown off?

With the MEB platforms coming very soon, we should start seeing more affordable products like BEV Escape or BEV Bronco Sport?

 

Wow, investor euphoria over BEV sure is over. Old news now. Looks like investors see BEV as very long term only, especially with limited supply of batteries and chips. 

 

Ford can't even meet demand for Escape and Maverick hybrids. Not even close to demand. And plugin Escape supply us even worse. If fuel prices zoom up even more this summer, the demand/supply balance for hybrids/plugins will get much worse before they get better. 

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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

So when are we going to see more Ford BEV products shown off?

With the MEB platforms coming very soon, we should start seeing more affordable products like BEV Escape or BEV Bronco Sport?

 

The MEB Puma should be revealed this year because production is set to start in Cologne in 2023.

 

The MEB Corsair (presumably that means Escape too) are supposed to start in Oakville in 2025 but it is entirely possible Escape/Kuga will start in Europe and China before Oakville. So I wouldn't rule out seeing them in 2023.

 

Ford China is probably also planning on a bunch of EV we don't know about it. The current Territory BEV is mostly a compliance car but the next gen (due around 2023) is probably will be a serious EV.

 

Explorer and Aviator EV production was delayed by 18 months but doesn't mean Ford won't reveal it at the end of 2022. More likely, they will save that for 2023 as well but just pointing out that the delay was production related, not design/engineering (as far as we know)

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

The MEB Puma should be revealed this year because production is set to start in Cologne in 2023.

 

The MEB Corsair (presumably that means Escape too) are supposed to start in Oakville in 2025 but it is entirely possible Escape/Kuga will start in Europe and China before Oakville. So I wouldn't rule out seeing them in 2023.

 

Ford China is probably also planning on a bunch of EV we don't know about it. The current Territory BEV is mostly a compliance car but the next gen (due around 2023) is probably will be a serious EV.

 

Explorer and Aviator EV production was delayed by 18 months but doesn't mean Ford won't reveal it at the end of 2022. More likely, they will save that for 2023 as well but just pointing out that the delay was production related, not design/engineering (as far as we know)

 

It's not so much when BEV segments come to market, it's more about how many can they produce. For example, Ford has been producing the Escape hybrid for TWO years, and still can't meet demand. This story is going to be very long, long term at best. No wonder EV stocks like Rivian and Lucid are crashing. 

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48 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

It's not so much when BEV segments come to market, it's more about how many can they produce. For example, Ford has been producing the Escape hybrid for TWO years, and still can't meet demand. This story is going to be very long, long term at best. No wonder EV stocks like Rivian and Lucid are crashing. 

 

There was a delay in the Escape PHEV hybrid launch-https://www.electrive.com/2020/10/14/ford-kuga-hybrid-battery-problems-persist/

 

Also add in COVID/supply chain issues and Ford most likely focusing batteries to the Mach E and PowerBoost F-150, the Escape hybrid prob lost out on batteries. 

Hopefully with Ford getting more batteries and BOC opening up, it won't be as big of an issue. 

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5 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

There was a delay in the Escape PHEV hybrid launch-https://www.electrive.com/2020/10/14/ford-kuga-hybrid-battery-problems-persist/

 

Also add in COVID/supply chain issues and Ford most likely focusing batteries to the Mach E and PowerBoost F-150, the Escape hybrid prob lost out on batteries. 

Hopefully with Ford getting more batteries and BOC opening up, it won't be as big of an issue. 

 

Also Ford prioritized Kuga PHEV production over Escape PHEV given the battery constrain and delays. Kuga PHEV was the top selling PHEV in Europe last year.

 

 

Screenshot 2022-01-25 170444.png

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The situation in Europe is interesting because even now, PHEVs are coming under fire for being insufficient. Europe and UK have ZEV zones in certain cities where vehicles must operate in electric mode, the catch is that PHEVs must travel in charge sustain to get to these locations and as a result, many governments are rating their emissions in charge sustain mode. These vehicles may need bigger batteries and more electric range to survive…..

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14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The situation in Europe is interesting because even now, PHEVs are coming under fire for being insufficient. Europe and UK have ZEV zones in certain cities where vehicles must operate in electric mode, the catch is that PHEVs must travel in charge sustain to get to these locations and as a result, many governments are rating their emissions in charge sustain mode. These vehicles may need bigger batteries and more electric range to survive…..

 

Or they could just let them operate in their most efficient programming - i.e. how they were designed - rather than artificial limitations because "we said so".

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On 1/24/2022 at 9:04 PM, slemke said:

It is a concept, so who knows how much makes it to the finished product.  
 

There is also a Mercedes sprinter RV with 200 miles of range.  What caught my attention was it had a gas cooktop.  Everything was designed to save weight to extend the battery range.  For gas or diesel powered RVs it is all about getting the maximum GVWR so they can add more luxury features…like granite countertops.

 

So is the Winnebago. There was a lot of "hand wringing" about its range.

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5 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Or they could just let them operate in their most efficient programming - i.e. how they were designed - rather than artificial limitations because "we said so".

It’s deliberate to force automakers to make true BEVs, when Europe changes, they go all the way……

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Just saw an article on Autonews, Ford has 10,000 orders for e Transit from about three hundred government and commercial customers.  Ford is expected to begin deliveries shortly as  part of the new Ford Pro commercial business subsidiary. Walmart have ordered 1,100 e Transits after BrightDrop won an order for 5,000 last month. e Transit comes in eight configurations and starts at $44,900.

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17 hours ago, jpd80 said:

It’s deliberate to force automakers to make true BEVs, when Europe changes, they go all the way……

 

Oh I get it's a roundabout way to force them to BEVs.

 

But as has been discussed, the goal clearly isn't solely to "reduce emissions".  Sure, at the individual sources (the vehicles themselves), BEVs have no emissions, so they obviously reduce emissions vs. even hybrids, but don't pretend the goal is wanting to reduce emissions while intentionally blocking off a way to significantly lower emissions immediately without upending/forcing an entire infrastructure to change.

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This was an interesting article:

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/01/27/toyota-mythical-ev/

Quote


Back in June and July of 2021, Cox Automotive polled nearly 5,000 consumers between the ages of 18 and 72 who either owned, considered buying or rejected buying an electric vehicle. Within that data, it showed that Tesla quite clearly has the most brand recognition for its EVs, while other brands have a whole lot of work to do on the marketing front. Specifically, a whopping 69% of those EV buyers (or rejecters) didn't even know the Chevrolet Bolt existed despite being on sale since 2016.

Then we noticed something really surprising. A stunning 40% of those 5,000 consumers — about 2,000 people — said they were aware of Toyota's electric vehicle. Some said they were considering it, some said they were not. Either way, there's a pretty big problem with that: Toyota did not sell an electric vehicle in June and July of 2021. Nor did it sell one at any time after the 2014 RAV4 EV. And just in case you're wondering, the Toyota bZ4X EV wouldn't be revealed for another four months. 

Basically, significantly more people were somehow "aware" that Toyota makes an EV that does not exist than those who knew about the Chevrolet Bolt, a vehicle that has existed for more than five years. Or the Nissan Leaf, for that matter, which has been on sale since 2010.

Perhaps people just assumed that Toyota, which pioneered hybridsmust make an EV. Not a bad assumption, but in reality, Toyota hasn't been too keen on them. Almost hostile, even. Only recently has it announced plans for a variety of future EV models, and again, the bZ4X was only revealed back in November. Then again, perhaps people just don't fully understand what an electric vehicle is, lumping hybrids and plug-in hybrids in with them (things Toyota does sell). In other words "electrification" equals "fully electric." It doesn't. 

Now, before you get too down on the car knowledge of general automotive consumers, don't worry, it gets even worse. That same Cox Automotive study said that 17% were not aware that Tesla made an EV. Let that sink in. 

You can read the highlights of the Cox Automotive Path to EV Adoption Study here.

 

 

Cox-Automotive-EV-Brand-Awareness-Chart.jpg

 

 

 

 

Shows how much work with awareness that needs to be done for EVs.

 

Somehow 17% of people in the survey didn't know Tesla made an EV.........people are morons.

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5,000 people is quite a small survey but I can understand some of the findings in that survey. Most people don’t follow the industry super closely and a lower level of awareness is to be expected. At the moment, automakers are cherry picking the BEV customers they want, be that Tesla, VW, Ford or GM. None are really going after the market with dollar for dollar ICE replacements and that’s the main kicker for many even before discussing recharging or range anxiety.

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6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

This was an interesting article:

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/01/27/toyota-mythical-ev/

 

Cox-Automotive-EV-Brand-Awareness-Chart.jpg

 

 

 

 

Shows how much work with awareness that needs to be done for EVs.

 

Somehow 17% of people in the survey didn't know Tesla made an EV.........people are morons.

Just wait until the warranty claims come in from those folks when the gas nozzle doesn’t fit the charge port.  I won’t be surprised when someone rents a Tesla from Hertz and tries to fill it up at a gas station.

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11 hours ago, slemke said:

Just wait until the warranty claims come in from those folks when the gas nozzle doesn’t fit the charge port.  I won’t be surprised when someone rents a Tesla from Hertz and tries to fill it up at a gas station.

Amazed, dismayed even, that 17% of the respondents claim not to know the Tesla is an electric car. It makes me wonder how unaware of other things I may be.

 

IIRC, for 1965  Chrysler Corp discontinued the pushbutton Torqueflite automatic controls largely at the behest of rental car companies who were getting customer complaints about cars not having a gearshift stalk.

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