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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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A few days ago, Ford joined 27 other companies lobbying EU governments and European Parliament to "put in place an EU-wide phase-out for sales of new internal combustion engine passenger cars and vans (including hybrids) no later than 2035. This should be enshrined into legislation by setting the 2035 fleet-wide CO2 target at 0 gram CO2/km for vehicle manufacturers."

 

Climate%20Group%2022098%20EV100%20-%20Lo

 

Statement from Ford of Europe chair Stuart Rowley.

At Ford in Europe, we believe that freedom of movement goes hand-in-hand with caring for our planet and each other. 

That’s why we are targeting all Ford vehicles to be zero emission by 2035 in line with this call, the COP26 RouteZero initiative and with our Paris Climate commitment. 

To successfully achieve this, EU policymakers must also establish mandatory national targets for a seamless electric charging infrastructure that lives up to the growing demand for electric vehicles, and will empower European consumers and businesses to take full advantage of living in a digital world.

 

Letter attached.

2022_06_ICE phase out joint call FINAL (PDF) - UPDATE.pdf

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10 hours ago, rperez817 said:

A few days ago, Ford joined 27 other companies lobbying EU governments and European Parliament to "put in place an EU-wide phase-out for sales of new internal combustion engine passenger cars and vans (including hybrids) no later than 2035. This should be enshrined into legislation by setting the 2035 fleet-wide CO2 target at 0 gram CO2/km for vehicle manufacturers."

 

Climate%20Group%2022098%20EV100%20-%20Lo

 

Statement from Ford of Europe chair Stuart Rowley.

 

 

 

Letter attached.

2022_06_ICE phase out joint call FINAL (PDF) - UPDATE.pdf

Was Ford the only auto manufacturer to sign?  Oops found volvo which has also committed to all EV.  Surprisingly Jaguar isn’t there.  Seems like Ford made a gamble on BEV and the only way for it to pay off is lobbying for Government help.  Doesn’t seem very encouraging.  Very few of those companies have anything to do with automotive industry.  Many would directly benefit from the regulation, though.  Seems more like something to help out the companies themselves and not consumers

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I think that a lot of people in Europe would be on board with all vehicle manufacturers  going full BEV from 2035, that’s plenty of time for manufacturers to switch. Equally, it’s plenty of time to work out any important exemptions if required…

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4 hours ago, slemke said:

Was Ford the only auto manufacturer to sign?  Oops found volvo which has also committed to all EV.  Surprisingly Jaguar isn’t there.  Seems like Ford made a gamble on BEV and the only way for it to pay off is lobbying for Government help.  Doesn’t seem very encouraging.  Very few of those companies have anything to do with automotive industry.  Many would directly benefit from the regulation, though.  Seems more like something to help out the companies themselves and not consumers

You have to remember that Ford is now a "woke" company and anything they do does not have to make sense.

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14 hours ago, Footballfan said:

You have to remember that Ford is now a "woke" company and anything they do does not have to make sense.

It’s also confirmation that ICEs will continue until 2035, a lot can change in 13 years. Many in Europe want a full switch to BEV long before that time as many consumers are ready to give up on high cost diesel and gasoline.

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6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

It’s also confirmation that ICEs will continue until 2035, a lot can change in 13 years. Many in Europe want a full switch to BEV long before that time as many consumers are ready to give up on high cost diesel and gasoline.

Until they get the electric bill and realize they are paying just as much per mile :) Really depends on the tax structure.  If those charging stations are fed by natural gas electric generators, there is going to be a carbon tax that could be worse than what they are currently paying for gas and diesel.  In the US, public charging station prices aren’t much different than gas in a fuel efficient vehicle.  With Europe’s high gas and diesel taxes, the equation shifts in favor of electric until government misses the tax revenue.

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21 hours ago, Footballfan said:

You have to remember that Ford is now a "woke" company and anything they do does not have to make sense.

Yeah…shop at target recently?  Woke and broke.  Target missed earnings and the stock dropped 25%.  Not many shoppers.  Costco opened another store in the area and they are usually packed.

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2 hours ago, slemke said:

Until they get the electric bill and realize they are paying just as much per mile :) Really depends on the tax structure.  If those charging stations are fed by natural gas electric generators, there is going to be a carbon tax that could be worse than what they are currently paying for gas and diesel.  In the US, public charging station prices aren’t much different than gas in a fuel efficient vehicle.  With Europe’s high gas and diesel taxes, the equation shifts in favor of electric until government misses the tax revenue.

Generally, a BEV recharged with 100% coal fired generation is around a quarter of the CO2 emissions of a gasoline engine, diesel slightly higher but definitely a lot less. Natural gas puts out about half the CO2 of Coal powered so moving the needle in the right direction. In the end, it’s far easier to control fewer CO2 emitters so going electric and putting power generation under the micro is the way for Europe to go.

 

I have a feeling that many European will swing back towards public transport and give up running private vehicles unless absolutely necessary. The cultural differences and population density of Europe makes that far more likely than larger, decentralised countries like USA.

 

Taxation is a tricky one, the US pays some of the lowest in the world, so places like Europe are deliberately high tax anti vehicle ownership so I think the next progression will be BEVs for most but also those who can going to public transport like busses, trams or even ride share when needed. Some may even be open to Asian idea of Swap n go BEV scooters.

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  • ice-capades changed the title to Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related
9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Generally, a BEV recharged with 100% coal fired generation is around a quarter of the CO2 emissions of a gasoline engine, diesel slightly higher but definitely a lot less. Natural gas puts out about half the CO2 of Coal powered so moving the needle in the right direction. In the end, it’s far easier to control fewer CO2 emitters so going electric and putting power generation under the micro is the way for Europe to go.

 

I have a feeling that many European will swing back towards public transport and give up running private vehicles unless absolutely necessary. The cultural differences and population density of Europe makes that far more likely than larger, decentralised countries like USA.

 

Taxation is a tricky one, the US pays some of the lowest in the world, so places like Europe are deliberately high tax anti vehicle ownership so I think the next progression will be BEVs for most but also those who can going to public transport like busses, trams or even ride share when needed. Some may even be open to Asian idea of Swap n go BEV scooters.

 

 

Don't forget electric bikes that are exploding in sales. Class 3 ebikes offer throttle only and can go 30 mph or so. Some pedal assist bikes like my wife's are good for 28mph and climb hills with little effort. With the right accessories, you can use them for errands and even work.

 

I live in a golf cart community and basically use it for most errands like bank, grocery store, and sport activities. About 40% are electric and rest gas. With lithium battery carts finally being viable, lots of golf cart manufacturers are entering the fray. A new entry from Star has full display, lighted instrument panel, a frunk, back up camera, and lots more tech. 

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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

Don't forget electric bikes that are exploding in sales. Class 3 ebikes offer throttle only and can go 30 mph or so. Some pedal assist bikes like my wife's are good for 28mph and climb hills with little effort. With the right accessories, you can use them for errands and even work.

 

I live in a golf cart community and basically use it for most errands like bank, grocery store, and sport activities. About 40% are electric and rest gas. With lithium battery carts finally being viable, lots of golf cart manufacturers are entering the fray. A new entry from Star has full display, lighted instrument panel, a frunk, back up camera, and lots more tech. 

 

Good info FordBuyer. In the past, Ford's Smart Mobility division did pilot projects in Europe involving ebikes. Hopefully the company will soon be able to provide products and services along those lines, not just in Europe but in all markets where Ford does business. Ford Smart Mobility Plan Expanded at Mobile World Congress with Electric Bike Experiment For Connected Urban Journeys | Ford Media Center

 

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On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2022 at 9:40 AM, rperez817 said:

A few days ago, Ford joined 27 other companies lobbying EU governments and European Parliament to "put in place an EU-wide phase-out for sales of new internal combustion engine passenger cars and vans (including hybrids) no later than 2035. This should be enshrined into legislation by setting the 2035 fleet-wide CO2 target at 0 gram CO2/km for vehicle manufacturers."

 

Climate%20Group%2022098%20EV100%20-%20Lo

 

Statement from Ford of Europe chair Stuart Rowley.

 

 

 

Letter attached.

2022_06_ICE phase out joint call FINAL (PDF) - UPDATE.pdf

good luck on that...once "Electric" hits inevitable supply issues , and people begin to realize its NOT doing anything basically to "save the environment " ...let alone BEVs become more affordable, good old ICE will soldier on...as the affordable alternative perhaps....oh the irony...

Edited by Deanh
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On 5/23/2022 at 2:21 AM, jpd80 said:

Generally, a BEV recharged with 100% coal fired generation is around a quarter of the CO2 emissions of a gasoline engine, diesel slightly higher but definitely a lot less. Natural gas puts out about half the CO2 of Coal powered so moving the needle in the right direction. In the end, it’s far easier to control fewer CO2 emitters so going electric and putting power generation under the micro is the way for Europe to go.

 

I have a feeling that many European will swing back towards public transport and give up running private vehicles unless absolutely necessary. The cultural differences and population density of Europe makes that far more likely than larger, decentralised countries like USA.

 

Taxation is a tricky one, the US pays some of the lowest in the world, so places like Europe are deliberately high tax anti vehicle ownership so I think the next progression will be BEVs for most but also those who can going to public transport like busses, trams or even ride share when needed. Some may even be open to Asian idea of Swap n go BEV scooters.


another thing regarding electricity/EVs and taxes…..government is going to find a way to make up for lost gas tax revenue.   Probably with some per mile tax or something that they’ll then use to track where you go more than they do now lol.

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17 minutes ago, rmc523 said:


another thing regarding electricity/EVs and taxes…..government is going to find a way to make up for lost gas tax revenue.   Probably with some per mile tax or something that they’ll then use to track where you go more than they do now lol.


They already do.  Illinois requires EV plates and charges more for registration. Other states do as well. 
 

 

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4 hours ago, rmc523 said:


another thing regarding electricity/EVs and taxes…..government is going to find a way to make up for lost gas tax revenue.   Probably with some per mile tax or something that they’ll then use to track where you go more than they do now lol.

It’s a tricky subject with no easy solution that can be considered entirely fair and equitable 

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

It’s a tricky subject with no easy solution that can be considered entirely fair and equitable 

 

You can structure a carbon tax like a VAT so it is fair and equitable - the more you buy (consume) the more you pay.

 

VAT is the norm in most large economy and both developed and developing countries, except of course the US... It's an outlier is just about everything that is important. We won't even adopt the metric system because it is too logical and easy to use.

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

You can structure a carbon tax like a VAT so it is fair and equitable - the more you buy (consume) the more you pay.

 

VAT is the norm in most large economy and both developed and developing countries, except of course the US... It's an outlier is just about everything that is important. We won't even adopt the metric system because it is too logical and easy to use.

But see, how do you charge a carbon tax on a BEV if they buy green power to charge vehicles or use their own from solar and batteries?

lt almost compels for a road mileage usage tax to justify contributing to road maintenance and infrastructure upgrades.

Edited by jpd80
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2 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

You can structure a carbon tax like a VAT so it is fair and equitable - the more you buy (consume) the more you pay.

 

VAT is the norm in most large economy and both developed and developing countries, except of course the US... It's an outlier is just about everything that is important. We won't even adopt the metric system because it is too logical and easy to use.

The U.S. is the world’s superpower in large part because our relatively low tax free enterprise system has proven superior to the higher taxed economies in Europe and around the world. A carbon tax is a horrible idea, increasing energy costs which affect every part of the economy. 

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18 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

The U.S. is the world’s superpower in large part because our relatively low tax free enterprise system has proven superior to the higher taxed economies in Europe and around the world. A carbon tax is a horrible idea, increasing energy costs which affect every part of the economy. 


I think he meant a road usage tax not a carbon tax.  Road usage is irrespective of propulsion.

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

But see, how do you charge a carbon tax on a BEV if they buy green power to charge vehicles or use their own from solar and batteries?

lt almost compels for a road mileage usage tax to justify contributing to road maintenance and infrastructure upgrades.

The problem with a road mileage usage tax is that it is overly burdensome for those that live in rural areas and must drive long distances for any type of services. Those that don’t drive should also pay for road and infrastructure improvements since food, clothing, medicine…. Everything we buy is transported on the highway system. 

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1 hour ago, Trader 10 said:

The problem with a road mileage usage tax is that it is overly burdensome for those that live in rural areas and must drive long distances for any type of services. Those that don’t drive should also pay for road and infrastructure improvements since food, clothing, medicine…. Everything we buy is transported on the highway system. 

Maybe not.  If it is a flat rate per mile they might come out ahead as many have pickups and large suvs that pay more in gas tax due to getting worse than average fuel economy.  If the rates are tiered based on GVWR, they’ll be paying more.

 

They pay indirectly through the things they purchase.  Now, bicycles and e-bikes using the roads are a different matter.  Along with funding for public transportation.  If it effective at reducing traffic congestion, great.  But putting more empty busses on the road isn’t the way to go.

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3 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

The problem with a road mileage usage tax is that it is overly burdensome for those that live in rural areas and must drive long distances for any type of services. Those that don’t drive should also pay for road and infrastructure improvements since food, clothing, medicine…. Everything we buy is transported on the highway system. 

And this is why it could end being a combination of a compulsory minimum amount everyone pays and then on top mileage travelled but the rate dependent on your location, kinda like a zonal thing….the more I think about this the trickier it gets, well more like the easier it will be for licensing to scalp road users…

Edited by jpd80
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9 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

Those that don’t drive should also pay for road and infrastructure improvements since food, clothing, medicine…. Everything we buy is transported on the highway system. 


But like Slemke said those costs are passed on in the cost of the products being transported.  You would think rural areas would have a lower per mile rate than urban areas so driving more miles wouldn’t necessarily be more expensive.

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On 2/5/2022 at 12:18 AM, bzcat said:

It's quite possible Ford has decided to use GE2 for Escape and Corsair. They haven't said anything about MEB in North America since the initial Oakville EV announcement. 

 

Corsair and Escape are 2025 model year so engineering should be lock just about now. The EV landscape has changed pretty significantly since Hackett signed the deal with VW. Back in 2020, most people expect EV adoption to be slow and graduate so there was a lot more time to figure out your strategy. Leveraging MEB for smaller EV seems like a good bet for Ford so it doesn't need to sink a lot of money into something that VW was already far ahead.

 

But only 2 years later, the EV adoption has not been slow and graduate. It is explosive and exponential. EV went from 2% to 12% of market in California, and from 1% to 17% in Germany (and 28% plug in with EV+PHEV). Now Ford fully expects EV to account for the majority of its sales by later this decade. So the impetus to bring these things back inhouse is probably very strong. Farley is far more focused on this than Hackett... he knows Ford has to control its own destiny on EV.

 

Explorer and Aviator EVs to be built at Oakville: Ford Explorer Electric Production Slated For Oakville Assembly Plant (fordauthority.com)

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

That was unexpected...

 

Now I'm really questioning whether Escape and Corsair will be MEB. Makes much more sense to build all 4 on GE2 at Oakville. 


Wonder if MEB didn’t run into the same issue that using the Rivian platform did. 

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