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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


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15 hours ago, bzcat said:

Explorer/Aviator was originally 2023 but delayed to 2024. Engineering is surely completed on this because of the original target production date but we haven't seen any prototypes yet.

 

Escape/Corsair was originally 2024 but delayed to 2025 (some report says 2026). I think some of this delay is probably due to changing the platform from MEB to GE2. But that's just a theory. 

 

Interesting info/theory and please, let me expand on that a little, maybe you can add to my theories…

 

As far as I know, MEB Escape and “Fusion Acitve” developments are done, coming to Cologne in 2023.

 

Could Ford be about to repurpose the existing GE based Mach E engineering for a new North American

Escape/Corsair at Cuautitlan to keep costs under control? Maybe add Bronco Sport and Maverick EVs?


While GE2 based Edge/Explorer and Nautilus/Aviator and new GE2 Mustang Mach E go to Oakville?

(I’m thinking 2-row fastback and 3-row SUV utilities on GE2  but different to Mustang Mach E which

stays with a narrower top hat?)

 

I get a real tingle for Oakville when I think about this possibility, it’s everything they need and more….

 

Am I overthinking this, is there a much simpler product path that I’ve missed with above picks?

Edited by jpd80
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11 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

Why the hate for oil? It gives us the freedom to travel anywhere in the world, powers our homes and businesses, and provides heat and air conditioning for our buildings. The bullshit to be concerned about is that spewed by the green movement. 


When an industry actively discourages another one through active misinformation, that isn’t a good look either. 
 

The real issue is this-we have hit more or less the extent of what an ICE engine can do with mpg and emissions. We have engines that make 700+ HP and can last 200k miles with minor maintenance, which was completely unheard 20-30 years ago. 
 

Not to mention the whole geopolitical bullshit that oil causes-and before you start mentioning about battery materials-there are a lot of development in different battery materials. 

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9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Interesting info/theory and please, let me expand on that a little, maybe you can add to my theories…

 

As far as I know, MEB Escape and “Fusion Acitve” developments are done, coming to Cologne in 2023.

 

Could Ford be about to repurpose the existing GE based Mach E engineering for a new North American

Escape/Corsair at Cuautitlan to keep costs under control? Maybe add Bronco Sport and Maverick EVs?


While GE2 based Edge/Explorer and Nautilus/Aviator and new GE2 Mustang Mach E go to Oakville?

(I’m thinking 2-row fastback and 3-row SUV utilities on GE2  but different to Mustang Mach E which

stays with a narrower top hat?)

 

I get a real tingle for Oakville when I think about this possibility, it’s everything they need and more….

 

Am I overthinking this, is there a much simpler product path that I’ve missed with above picks?

What you’re saying is interesting but isn’t the Edge a goner altogether in all formats??? I don’t believe the Nautilus is dead like you said. You’re not the only one overthinking all of these future product allocations.

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6 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

What you’re saying is interesting but isn’t the Edge a goner altogether in all formats??? I don’t believe the Nautilus is dead like you said. You’re not the only one overthinking all of these future product allocations.

Yes,  that’s true and currently, you can see that Ford is positioning the lower priced 2-row version of Explorer as an Edge replacement.

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1 hour ago, akirby said:


Say what?

Yeah, after I posted that, I realised that was not what I meant to say. More accurately, Ford looks to be positioning Explorer’s  bottom two trim levels to compete with Edge SE and SEL. The base Explorer and XLT look to be extremely good value.
 

Ford Edge

SE starting at $37,145,

SEL starting at $38,945

ST-Line starting at $42,745

Titanium starting at $42,745

ST starting at $45,945

 

Ford Explorer

Explorer starting price is $33,745

XLT starting at $38,055

ST-Line starting at $45,245

Limited starting at $46,555

Timberline starting at $47,305

 

 

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15 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Yeah, after I posted that, I realised that was not what I meant to say. More accurately, Ford looks to be positioning Explorer’s  bottom two trim levels to compete with Edge SE and SEL. The base Explorer and XLT look to be extremely good value.
 

Ford Edge

SE starting at $37,145,

SEL starting at $38,945

ST-Line starting at $42,745

Titanium starting at $42,745

ST starting at $45,945

 

Ford Explorer

Explorer starting price is $33,745

XLT starting at $38,055

ST-Line starting at $45,245

Limited starting at $46,555

Timberline starting at $47,305

 

 

 

Trouble is....CR rates the Edge very high in reliability and most other ways. And gives its worse rating to Explorer. I'm not a big fan of CR, but sizable numbers are. And Explorer will not replace the volume sales Edge produces.

 

That is why Ford's lack of new vehicle reports are concerning. Ecosport and more importantly Edge leaving soon and no news on replacements. Maverick is virtually sold out for next couple years making Ford thin in more affordable segment compared to the Asian manufacturers.

 

Sorry, but Ford has to do better than Escape S in affordable CUV segment. Like it or not, Ford is still known as a more affordable brand. 

 

Now if Ford just wants to be known as a truck/van company, then keep on doing what they are doing...mediocre rated CUVs, no sedans, and mum on any new products in those very competitive segments.

 

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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

And Explorer will not replace the volume sales Edge produces.

How do we know that?

Ford intends producing Explorer and BEV Explorer at two different sites.

 

Quote

Sorry, but Ford has to do better than Escape S in affordable CUV segment. Like it or not, Ford is still known as a more affordable brand. 

Affordable is not bargain basement strippers, Ford left that perception behind a decade ago. A hybrid pickup for $20k is great value, too bad there’s no Maverick Utility but I understand why.

 

Quote

 

Now if Ford just wants to be known as a truck/van company, then keep on doing what they are doing...mediocre rated CUVs, no sedans, and mum on any new products in those very competitive segments.

Farley and Ford are now all in on electric vehicles, his predecessor, Jim Hackett literally ripped the guts out of ICE funding by transferring $11 billion to BEV related products and infrastructure. You can’t do that without serious consequences and recently, Farley back that up with another $3 billion cut to Ford Blue.

 

These are maddening times, limited supply of chips encourages Ford to prioritise more profitable trim mixes, I think that’s a bigger issue to people seeking affordable vehicles because it destroys any chance of cash incentives seen a few short years ago.

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40 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

How do we know that?

Ford intends producing Explorer and BEV Explorer at two different sites.

 

Affordable is not bargain basement strippers, Ford left that perception behind a decade ago. A hybrid pickup for $20k is great value, too bad there’s no Maverick Utility but I understand why.

 

Farley and Ford are now all in on electric vehicles, his predecessor, Jim Hackett literally ripped the guts out of ICE funding by transferring $11 billion to BEV related products and infrastructure. You can’t do that without serious consequences and recently, Farley back that up with another $3 billion cut to Ford Blue.

 

These are maddening times, limited supply of chips encourages Ford to prioritise more profitable trim mixes, I think that’s a bigger issue to people seeking affordable vehicles because it destroys any chance of cash incentives seen a few short years ago.

 

I agree with most of what you said, but still when you see competitors month after month come out with redesigned or all new CUVs in all segments, Ford's lack of response other than ending strong brands like Edge is concerning. Have to wait and see what Ford has up its sleeve with Oakville, but sounds like lower volume, higher end vehicles so far. 

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22 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

I agree with most of what you said, but still when you see competitors month after month come out with redesigned or all new CUVs in all segments, Ford's lack of response other than ending strong brands like Edge is concerning. Have to wait and see what Ford has up its sleeve with Oakville, but sounds like lower volume, higher end vehicles so far. 

Of course and by no means is Ford’s decisions perfect of infallible, it’s just what they’ve chosen to do until the plan changes again….

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2 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

I agree with most of what you said, but still when you see competitors month after month come out with redesigned or all new CUVs in all segments, Ford's lack of response other than ending strong brands like Edge is concerning. 


Stop saying stuff like this while you completely ignore other vehicles that Ford has that the competition doesn’t,

 

Who has a Maverick competitor?  Hyundai and it’s a distant second place.

 

Who has a Bronco or Bronco Sport?  Jeep.  That’s it.  
 

Which of those “competitors” have a Super Duty or F150 or Transit van?   Mustang?  
 

 

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20 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

I agree with most of what you said, but still when you see competitors month after month come out with redesigned or all new CUVs in all segments, Ford's lack of response other than ending strong brands like Edge is concerning. Have to wait and see what Ford has up its sleeve with Oakville, but sounds like lower volume, higher end vehicles so far. 

IMO Ford screwed the pooch when they made the EDGE AWD and nothing but....its a rather spendy acquisition now, let alone its been somewhat left to die on the vine with basically zero cosmetic upgrades...Ford needs a 5 pass mid size SUV...so they have a great opportunity to raise some bars...

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49 minutes ago, Deanh said:

IMO Ford screwed the pooch when they made the EDGE AWD and nothing but....its a rather spendy acquisition now, let alone its been somewhat left to die on the vine with basically zero cosmetic upgrades...Ford needs a 5 pass mid size SUV...so they have a great opportunity to raise some bars...


That was after the decision was made to kill it.

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1 hour ago, Deanh said:

IMO Ford screwed the pooch when they made the EDGE AWD and nothing but....its a rather spendy acquisition now, let alone its been somewhat left to die on the vine with basically zero cosmetic upgrades...Ford needs a 5 pass mid size SUV...so they have a great opportunity to raise some bars...

It's a long shot, but  Ford is projecting significant mach-e sales in the coming years by stating that they want to sell about 200k mach-e's a year. Is it possible they're phasing out the edge to push more buyers into the presumably more profitable mach-e? I doubt it, the mach-e is obviously more expensive than the edge's starting price. But maybe ford is working on a more affordable version or something. The mach-e starts at 43k, the edge at about 37k, which was far more than I expected. I could see ford offering a new trim with cheaper interiors materials, and less tech that gets pretty close to the edge's starting price.

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20 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

It's a long shot, but  Ford is projecting significant mach-e sales in the coming years by stating that they want to sell about 200k mach-e's a year. Is it possible they're phasing out the edge to push more buyers into the presumably more profitable mach-e? I doubt it, the mach-e is obviously more expensive than the edge's starting price. But maybe ford is working on a more affordable version or something. Some version of the mach-e that starts in the low 30s isn't out of the question, and would certainly be enticing to a lot of midsized buyers.

 

While Ford is planning on increasing Mach-E production to 200,000 vehicles per year, keep in mind that half of the Mach-E production in Mexico so far goes to Europe.  

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2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

It's a long shot, but  Ford is projecting significant mach-e sales in the coming years by stating that they want to sell about 200k mach-e's a year. Is it possible they're phasing out the edge to push more buyers into the presumably more profitable mach-e? I doubt it, the mach-e is obviously more expensive than the edge's starting price. But maybe ford is working on a more affordable version or something. The mach-e starts at 43k, the edge at about 37k, which was far more than I expected. I could see ford offering a new trim with cheaper interiors materials, and less tech that gets pretty close to the edge's starting price.

 

I don't think you will find a Mach E for under $60,000. First, 2022 MY is sold out and any dealer with any on lot wants big money over sticker. Ditto with Lightning....average guy in street won't be able to buy one at sticker for long time. 

 

Meanwhile, not that hard to find a new Edge with modest incentives for joe blow. Big difference. Ditto with Ecosport....lots to choose from and incentives. But all good things come to an end. 

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On 5/28/2022 at 6:07 AM, silvrsvt said:


When an industry actively discourages another one through active misinformation, that isn’t a good look either. 
 

The real issue is this-we have hit more or less the extent of what an ICE engine can do with mpg and emissions. We have engines that make 700+ HP and can last 200k miles with minor maintenance, which was completely unheard 20-30 years ago. 
 

Not to mention the whole geopolitical bullshit that oil causes-and before you start mentioning about battery materials-there are a lot of development in different battery materials. 

 

Engines peaked for reliability 20 years ago and manufacturers have been making compromises for emissions and efficiency ever since, IMO.  Considering longevity alone, I would take a 4.6 Triton 2V out of a 2000 Crown Vic or Mustang over a Gen 4 Coyote with VVT, cylinder deactivation, low tension oil rings and plasma cylinder linings.  

Edited by 1970TorinoGT
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10 hours ago, Deanh said:

IMO Ford screwed the pooch when they made the EDGE AWD and nothing but....its a rather spendy acquisition now, let alone its been somewhat left to die on the vine with basically zero cosmetic upgrades...Ford needs a 5 pass mid size SUV...so they have a great opportunity to raise some bars...

FWD Edge 2.0 EB was a nice, cost effective product but you can see that Ford is getting buyers to look Explorer prices by making the bottom two trims financially attractive. Whether they can supply them is another matter.

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On 5/27/2022 at 11:26 PM, jpd80 said:

Interesting info/theory and please, let me expand on that a little, maybe you can add to my theories…

 

As far as I know, MEB Escape and “Fusion Acitve” developments are done, coming to Cologne in 2023.

 

Could Ford be about to repurpose the existing GE based Mach E engineering for a new North American

Escape/Corsair at Cuautitlan to keep costs under control? Maybe add Bronco Sport and Maverick EVs?


While GE2 based Edge/Explorer and Nautilus/Aviator and new GE2 Mustang Mach E go to Oakville?

(I’m thinking 2-row fastback and 3-row SUV utilities on GE2  but different to Mustang Mach E which

stays with a narrower top hat?)

 

I get a real tingle for Oakville when I think about this possibility, it’s everything they need and more….

 

Am I overthinking this, is there a much simpler product path that I’ve missed with above picks?

 

I don't think Cuatitlan is going anywhere so it will remain a GE2 production base.

 

To me, it's clear that Ford Europe is on a MEB island product wise at least for the next 10 years or so. Europe is getting MEB Puma and Kuga and maybe Focus.  Ford US and China will go on with GE2 and we will end up with different Escape and Explorer EV and 2nd gen Mach E. 

 

Too early to say Bronco Sport and Maverick EV will go or even what platform it will be.

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13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

FWD Edge 2.0 EB was a nice, cost effective product but you can see that Ford is getting buyers to look Explorer prices by making the bottom two trims financially attractive. Whether they can supply them is another matter.

 

The midsize 2 row CUV market is not really a cost conscious segment in the US, which is why Ford is pivoting away from base FWD Edge. The market is trending towards bigger and better equipped models. If Ford was serious about replacing Edge with another ICE model, it should bring over Evos (and retain the Edge name for marketing of course). But basically, Ford has already decided Mach E is the replacement, at least as far as North America and Europe are concerned.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

I don't think Cuatitlan is going anywhere so it will remain a GE2 production base.

Mustang Mach E is on GE, which is earlier batteries, electric motors and drives, it’s actually an orphan as GE2 vehicles are significantly different and a lot wider.

 

Thats why I was thinking that MME would eventually switch to GE2 and move to Oakville, that freeing up GE for North American compact electric vehicles…

 

 

Quote

 

To me, it's clear that Ford Europe is on a MEB island product wise at least for the next 10 years or so. Europe is getting MEB Puma and Kuga and maybe Focus.  Ford US and China will go on with GE2 and we will end up with different Escape and Explorer EV and 2nd gen Mach E. 

 

Too early to say Bronco Sport and Maverick EV will go or even what platform it will be.

Yes, I’m not convinced that Ford hasn’t already pivoted  away from MEB for North America, confirming GE2 utilities for Oakville could indeed be the change in plain sight.

 

3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

The midsize 2 row CUV market is not really a cost conscious segment in the US, which is why Ford is pivoting away from base FWD Edge. The market is trending towards bigger and better equipped models. If Ford was serious about replacing Edge with another ICE model, it should bring over Evos (and retain the Edge name for marketing of course). But basically, Ford has already decided Mach E is the replacement, at least as far as North America and Europe are concerned.

 

This is a hard one to accept because the MME is a lot narrower than the Edge but that could be the exact think those two row utility buyers are looking for  as opposed to wider three row utilities. Only time will tell and whether Ford transitions MME to GE2.

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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

The midsize 2 row CUV market is not really a cost conscious segment in the US, which is why Ford is pivoting away from base FWD Edge. The market is trending towards bigger and better equipped models. If Ford was serious about replacing Edge with another ICE model, it should bring over Evos (and retain the Edge name for marketing of course). But basically, Ford has already decided Mach E is the replacement, at least as far as North America and Europe are concerned.

 

 

 

 

Farley recently said Ford is going full bore on hybrids. We do know that the BS goes hybrid in 2024MY and supposedly Bronco and Ranger go hybrid also with maybe Mustang. Look for more hybrid models ..... more than full electrics possibly.

 

Ford really hasn't proven yet that it can build more than 50,000 Mach Es, and half go to Europe. That is concerning since Ford can still build 150,000 Edges/year for N.A. I certainly would like to see a redesigned Hybrid Edge. It's the goldilocks segment for Ford....not too small a 2 row CUV, and not too big which is reflected in excellent sales volume. The Edge is a known good seller for Ford and deserved better. 

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9 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Farley recently said Ford is going full bore on hybrids. We do know that the BS goes hybrid in 2024MY and supposedly Bronco and Ranger go hybrid also with maybe Mustang. Look for more hybrid models ..... more than full electrics possibly.

 

Ford really hasn't proven yet that it can build more than 50,000 Mach Es, and half go to Europe. That is concerning since Ford can still build 150,000 Edges/year for N.A. I certainly would like to see a redesigned Hybrid Edge. It's the goldilocks segment for Ford....not too small a 2 row CUV, and not too big which is reflected in excellent sales volume. The Edge is a known good seller for Ford and deserved better. 

I doubt that changes to the floor pan to accomodate hybrid batteries would be that hard to engineer, more like Ford doesn’t want to spend money on Edge now that it’s probably got two years to run until Oakville comes down for restructuring for the GE2 Explorer/Aviator

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2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


I've heard a few things about a hybrid Ranger, but absolutely nothing about Bronco. 

 

Well you do have reservation holders still waiting for a Bronco.

I wouldn't be the least bit suprised that the Bronco Hybrid doesn't come till 2025 and after the Ranger Hybrid. I could see the Ranger Hybrid launching in very late 2023 or early 2024, depending on how the supply chain is. 

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