Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related

[FordBuyer]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I've heard a few things about a hybrid Ranger, but absolutely nothing about Bronco. 

 

I have heard it in various articles....plug in hybrid to compete with Wrangler plugin. Common sense says $5 gas means 17mpg doesn't cut it anymore. The 15mpg Raptor is painful to hear. 

[akirby]

29 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

I have heard it in various articles....plug in hybrid to compete with Wrangler plugin. Common sense says $5 gas means 17mpg doesn't cut it anymore. The 15mpg Raptor is painful to hear. 

 

 

Raptor buyers don’t care about the cost of gas.  And where do you get 17 mpg?  If you keep posting lies you’re going to get an extended vacation.

 

 

[FordBuyer]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

 

Raptor buyers don’t care about the cost of gas.  And where do you get 17 mpg?  If you keep posting lies you’re going to get an extended vacation.

 

 

 

The Bronco Raptor averages 15 mpg and the twin turbo Bronco isn't a whole lot better. So yeah, the Bronco could use a hybrid of some kind like Wrangler, and who mentioned Ranger?

[akirby]

30 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

The Bronco Raptor averages 15 mpg and the twin turbo Bronco isn't a whole lot better. 

People who care about fuel economy get the 2.3L, not the 2.7 or the Raptor.

 

30 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

who mentioned Ranger?

 

The post you replied to.

[DeluxeStang]

44 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

The Bronco Raptor averages 15 mpg and the twin turbo Bronco isn't a whole lot better. So yeah, the Bronco could use a hybrid of some kind like Wrangler, and who mentioned Ranger?

I've said it before, but I think the 3.0 hybrid system in the aviator would be a great candidate for a bronco hybrid. With 494 hp/630 lb ft of torque, it would be by far the most powerful bronco. With some tweaking, I wouldn't be surprised if they got that powertrain into the mid 500 hp mark, with close to 700 lb ft of tq. That setup appears to be quite reliable, it's obviously fuel efficient, and it presumably wouldn't require a ton of work to be suitable in the bronco. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by DeluxeStang

[bzcat]

20 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Mustang Mach E is on GE, which is earlier batteries, electric motors and drives, it’s actually an orphan as GE2 vehicles are significantly different and a lot wider.

 

Thats why I was thinking that MME would eventually switch to GE2 and move to Oakville, that freeing up GE for North American compact electric vehicles…

 

 

Yes, I’m not convinced that Ford hasn’t already pivoted  away from MEB for North America, confirming GE2 utilities for Oakville could indeed be the change in plain sight.

 

This is a hard one to accept because the MME is a lot narrower than the Edge but that could be the exact think those two row utility buyers are looking for  as opposed to wider three row utilities. Only time will tell and whether Ford transitions MME to GE2.

 

Oakville is supposed to get 5 models so... Escape, Corsair, Explorer, Aviator, and next gen Mach E - makes sense they are all on GE2.

 

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to invest in tooling and supply chain for both MEB and GE2 in the same plant when GE2 is flexible and scalable. 

 

The MEB model that Ford is planning in Europe is a mid sized CUV and CUV coupe. It was previewed 2 months ago. And I just remembered that we determined Puma EV will be using Ford's modified B platform from Transit Courier and Ford Otosan is taking over the Romanian plant to build Puma EV and Transit Courier. So Ford is really only planning to build 1 MEB in Europe with 2 bodystyles - basically, Farley has scaled back Hackett's MEB plan considerably. 

 

Originally, Ford was going to use MEB worldwide and build as many as 5 million vehicles on MEB. Now, it looks like only 1 plant will build MEB (Cologne) and limited to the midsize CUV and the "sport crossover" derivative. I will bet that if Farley can undo the VW deal, he would (as he did with Hackett's plan to use Rivian platform). Ford stands to gain a lot more from the VW alliance because VW is exiting pickup truck and midsize commercial van business both of which are way more important to Ford. Amarok and Transporter will add meaningful volume to Ford's EV push on the truck and van side. And if that means Ford has to use MEB for 1 model instead of its own GE2, it just has to be done. 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by bzcat

[Deanh]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

 

 

Raptor buyers don’t care about the cost of gas.  And where do you get 17 mpg?  If you keep posting lies you’re going to get an extended vacation.

 

 

those mileage numbers are completely dependent on the Wheels and tires on the truck/ Bronco....onece I get my Bronco ( stick two door and sasquatch ) Ill report real world...like you said..I DONT care...Im in it for the fun....like the guys here lucky enough to already have theirs...Ill be grinning from ear to ear....

[rmc523]

5 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Well you do have reservation holders still waiting for a Bronco.

I wouldn't be the least bit suprised that the Bronco Hybrid doesn't come till 2025 and after the Ranger Hybrid. I could see the Ranger Hybrid launching in very late 2023 or early 2024, depending on how the supply chain is. 

I’d have ordered a hybrid model if it were offered, but wasn’t waiting years on end for a “maybe”.

 

4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

 

Raptor buyers don’t care about the cost of gas.  And where do you get 17 mpg?  If you keep posting lies you’re going to get an extended vacation.

 

 

sasquatch models are 17/17/17.  Shall I show my window sticker as proof?  Lol

 

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

those mileage numbers are completely dependent on the Wheels and tires on the truck/ Bronco....onece I get my Bronco ( stick two door and sasquatch ) Ill report real world...like you said..I DONT care...Im in it for the fun....like the guys here lucky enough to already have theirs...Ill be grinning from ear to ear....

I’ve tracked ~2200 miles thus far via fuelly, and have an average of 17.2 mpgs.  With a low of 14.8 and high of 19.1.

that’s with a Wildtrak/Sasquatch/2.7.

 

I still need to get around to doing an overview write up.  Since I got the thing I’ve been 1) just plain enjoying it and driving it, and 2) super busy with life, new job etc.  I haven’t forgotten haha.

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Oakville is supposed to get 5 models so... Escape, Corsair, Explorer, Aviator, and next gen Mach E - makes sense they are all on GE2.

 

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to invest in tooling and supply chain for both MEB and GE2 in the same plant when GE2 is flexible and scalable. 

 

The MEB model that Ford is planning in Europe is a mid sized CUV and CUV coupe. It was previewed 2 months ago. And I just remembered that we determined Puma EV will be using Ford's modified B platform from Transit Courier and Ford Otosan is taking over the Romanian plant to build Puma EV and Transit Courier. So Ford is really only planning to build 1 MEB in Europe with 2 bodystyles - basically, Farley has scaled back Hackett's MEB plan considerably. 

 

Just for clarity, Europe Escape is considered a mid sized SUV.

This is getting really confusing, if GE2 is as scalable as you suggest, then it will need to have flexible width to go from Compact Escape/Corsair and also Mustang Mach E through to Explorer/Aviator. The width issue has always been a problem with Ford doing more sharing across vehicles - even doing different widths across CD4 was a major issue requiring separate projects so if Ford now has this baked in for North America and China so be it……but pardon my skepticism, as we know Ford has never been that sensible or forward thinking

 

Quote

Originally, Ford was going to use MEB worldwide and build as many as 5 million vehicles on MEB. Now, it looks like only 1 plant will build MEB (Cologne) and limited to the midsize CUV and the "sport crossover" derivative. I will bet that if Farley can undo the VW deal, he would (as he did with Hackett's plan to use Rivian platform). Ford stands to gain a lot more from the VW alliance because VW is exiting pickup truck and midsize commercial van business both of which are way more important to Ford. Amarok and Transporter will add meaningful volume to Ford's EV push on the truck and van side. And if that means Ford has to use MEB for 1 model instead of its own GE2, it just has to be done. 

 

That makes complete sense and it would explain why Ford stopped talking about its alliance with VW in North America. We also don’t know the licensing conditions for MEB and whether VW was expecting more production orders from its plants. Also agree that the fine details of Hackett’s agreements with MEB could be similar to Rivian, just not tenable on larger scale.

 

OK , so if there’s five GE2 vehicles going into Oakville including a new GE2 Mustang Mach E, what happens At Cuautitlan?

If MME stays at Cuautitlan, why wouldn’t Ford build it’s least profitable Escape/Corsair there at a lower cost center?

Just a few anomalies with the theory but mostly it makes a lot of sense.

Edited June 1, 2022 by jpd80

[akirby]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

sasquatch models are 17/17/17.  Shall I show my window sticker as proof?  .

Again - people who buy a Sasquatch don’t care about mpgs.

 

Complaining about fuel economy on high performance or specialized vehicles is like complaining that a base Mustang is only 300 hp when there is a GT and GT500 available.

[Harley Lover]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

OK , so if there’s five GE2 vehicles going into Oakville including a new GE2 Mustang Mach E, what happens At Cuautitlan?

If MME stays at Cuautitlan, why wouldn’t Ford build it’s least profitable Escape/Corsair there at a lower cost center?

Just a few anomalies with the theory but mostly it makes a lot of sense.

 

Ford presumably has a plan for battery support for Oakville, I would guess either the new Kentucky battery plant or a new battery plant in Canada.

 

Cuautitlan, on the other hand (at least so far) has no announced battery plant support from Ford. I wouldn't be surprised if that announcement is on the horizon, given Farley publicly stated at the time of the Blue Oval City/Kentucky battery plant announcement that more battery capacity would be announced at a later date. If Ford is to get to their announced goal of 200k by 2023 in annual production for MME, battery supply must go hand in hand with that plan.

 

Battery production on premises with the vehicle plant is the most cost effective way to build an EV, but Ford must evidently believe they can make the central-in-the-U.S. Kentucky plant work, unless it is intended to feed the Louisville operation (and therefore Louisville is the next facility(s) to get an EV announcement).

[bzcat]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Just for clarity, Europe Escape is considered a mid sized SUV.

This is getting really confusing, if GE2 is as scalable as you suggest, then it will need to have flexible width to go from Compact Escape/Corsair and also Mustang Mach E through to Explorer/Aviator. The width issue has always been a problem with Ford doing more sharing across vehicles - even doing different widths across CD4 was a major issue requiring separate projects so if Ford now has this baked in for North America and China so be it……but pardon my skepticism, as we know Ford has never been that sensible or forward thinking

 

That makes complete sense and it would explain why Ford stopped talking about its alliance with VW in North America. We also don’t know the licensing conditions for MEB and whether VW was expecting more production orders from its plants. Also agree that the fine details of Hackett’s agreements with MEB could be similar to Rivian, just not tenable on larger scale.

 

OK , so if there’s five GE2 vehicles going into Oakville including a new GE2 Mustang Mach E, what happens At Cuautitlan?

If MME stays at Cuautitlan, why wouldn’t Ford build it’s least profitable Escape/Corsair there at a lower cost center?

Just a few anomalies with the theory but mostly it makes a lot of sense.

 

VW's MQB and MEB are both designed to handle everything from B to D segment vehicles. Ford copied that approach with C2 so I'm guessing GE2 was designed to use on both C and D segment vehicles too.

 

Cuautitlan can go one of two ways... Ford keeps GE1 there an use it for something else - like smaller/cheaper CUV or sedan. Or Ford migrates the plant to GE2 and moved other new EV there - like Bronco Sport and Maverick which will be due to next gen around 2028. But of course the question become what happens to Hermosillo... but likely Ford will want to keep the ICE model going in parallel so you need two plants for each model - one ICE and one EV.

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by bzcat

[ehaase]

Borg posted this on GMI. Michael Martinez on Twitter: "Farley on future of ICE products: "We're going to have passion products...we're not going to have commodity products like Edges & Escapes." We know Edge will soon be discontinued. Wonder if this means an impending end to Escape as well? https://t.co/tBo5wm3BPh" / Twitter

 

He speculates no Escape EV and that Mach E will be entry level EV.

[jasonj80]

20 minutes ago, ehaase said:

Borg posted this on GMI. Michael Martinez on Twitter: "Farley on future of ICE products: "We're going to have passion products...we're not going to have commodity products like Edges & Escapes." We know Edge will soon be discontinued. Wonder if this means an impending end to Escape as well? https://t.co/tBo5wm3BPh" / Twitter

 

He speculates no Escape EV and that Mach E will be entry level EV.

Farley confirmed the Escape is dead today, more consolidation and 100% online and fixed prices.

 

.https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2022/06/01/ford-electric-vehicles-online-sales-non-negotiable-price/7468899001/

Few stand out points

 

-- Ford estimates the company's distribution model is about $2,000 per vehicle more expensive than Tesla, including one-third being inventory sitting on dealer lots, one-third or $500 to $600 per vehicle on public advertising.

-- "Our model is messed up. We spend $600 or $700 on the vehicle to promote it and we spend nothing post-warranty on the customer experience. The problem is, on a parts business, which historically has been very profitable, we only get, maybe, only 10 or 20% of the customers come back to us."

 

--"If you ever see Ford Motor Co. doing a Super Bowl ad on our electric vehicles, sell the stock."

-- While Ford focuses on its iconic products, vehicles such as the Ford Edge and Escape will give way to Mustang and Bronco, Farley said.

 

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, jasonj80 said:

"If you ever see Ford Motor Co. doing a Super Bowl ad on our electric vehicles, sell the stock."

 

This is the quote of the year!  Love it!

 

 

 

[jpd80]

Well that’s torn it, I wonder what’s happening at Louisville now that Escape is dead man walking

[Harley Lover]

8 hours ago, ehaase said:

Borg posted this on GMI. Michael Martinez on Twitter: "Farley on future of ICE products: "We're going to have passion products...we're not going to have commodity products like Edges & Escapes." We know Edge will soon be discontinued. Wonder if this means an impending end to Escape as well? https://t.co/tBo5wm3BPh" / Twitter

 

He speculates no Escape EV and that Mach E will be entry level EV.

 

As all the competition get their entrants into the midsize EV CUV space, it wouldn't be a surprise to see an element of commoditization in the segment, similar to what has happened in the Escape's segment, and what happened in the Fusion's segment before that. It's inevitable once there are too many participants hawking too much product. All that to say that if MME is envisioned as the Escape successor in the EV mid size CUV space, it will be subject to the realities of the segment once it's oversaturated with competition.

[jpd80]

9 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

Farley confirmed the Escape is dead today, more consolidation and 100% online and fixed prices.

 

.https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2022/06/01/ford-electric-vehicles-online-sales-non-negotiable-price/7468899001/

Few stand out points

 

-- Ford estimates the company's distribution model is about $2,000 per vehicle more expensive than Tesla, including one-third being inventory sitting on dealer lots, one-third or $500 to $600 per vehicle on public advertising.

-- "Our model is messed up. We spend $600 or $700 on the vehicle to promote it and we spend nothing post-warranty on the customer experience. The problem is, on a parts business, which historically has been very profitable, we only get, maybe, only 10 or 20% of the customers come back to us."

 

--"If you ever see Ford Motor Co. doing a Super Bowl ad on our electric vehicles, sell the stock."

-- While Ford focuses on its iconic products, vehicles such as the Ford Edge and Escape will give way to Mustang and Bronco, Farley said.

 

The other telling comment in that story,

 

Joint ventures, Farley said, too often end in failure. Acquisitions will play a key role.

"Partnerships are hard. We've been in business 118 years, and we've probably had one partnership that worked really well, Ford Otosan in Turkey," Farley said. "These are really super hard things to do. Often, they come down to leaders, the character of the leaders, and if those leaders change and they retire or leave, the whole thing can fall apart."

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by jpd80

[akirby]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Well that’s torn it, I wonder what’s happening at Louisville now that Escape is dead man walking

This certainly opens the door for hybrid Nautilus to go with Corsair plus overflow from Hermosillo if necessary especially if Transit Connect goes there.

 

And now you can see why Bronco Sport and Maverick and Ranger replaced Fusion and Focus.  
 

I do agree about MME becoming a commodity to a degree but I think that’s many years in the future.
 

 

[rperez817]

10 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

-- Ford estimates the company's distribution model is about $2,000 per vehicle more expensive than Tesla, including one-third being inventory sitting on dealer lots, one-third or $500 to $600 per vehicle on public advertising.

-- "Our model is messed up. We spend $600 or $700 on the vehicle to promote it and we spend nothing post-warranty on the customer experience. The problem is, on a parts business, which historically has been very profitable, we only get, maybe, only 10 or 20% of the customers come back to us."

 

--"If you ever see Ford Motor Co. doing a Super Bowl ad on our electric vehicles, sell the stock."
 

 

Jim Farley is a good businessman for recognizing the fact that leadership with BEV requires a totally different business model in all areas. Design, engineering, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, and customer support.

 

Farley is doing a great job getting Ford out of the "old world" of the automotive industry and into the "new world". Hopefully he can continuously accelerate those efforts over the next few years.

[bzcat]

It just means Farley doesn’t plan on using the Escape name on the compact EV. Escape will remain ICE at Louisville and the new compact EV at Oakville will be named something else. Expect the new compact EV to be called Explorer XXXX like Bronco Sport or Mustang Mach E.

 

Also don’t forget Ford is already done with its version of MEB SUV in Europe. Production will start next year and it may or may not be called Kuga.

[silvrsvt]

22 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Also don’t forget Ford is already done with its version of MEB SUV in Europe. Production will start next year and it may or may not be called Kuga.

Aren’t they coming out with a BEV that will be called the Capri? 

[j2sys]

25 minutes ago, bzcat said:

It just means Farley doesn’t plan on using the Escape name on the compact EV.

 

All it means is that Farley doesn't plan on using the Escape name on an ICE vehicle going forward.  You'd have to ask the clarifying question as to whether the known brand of Escape will stick around in EV form.  To conclude anything more is mere assumption at this point.

[Footballfan]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Jim Farley is a good businessman for recognizing the fact that leadership with BEV requires a totally different business model in all areas. Design, engineering, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, and customer support.

 

Farley is doing a great job getting Ford out of the "old world" of the automotive industry and into the "new world". Hopefully he can continuously accelerate those efforts over the next few years.

Farley appears to be in over his head. 

[DeluxeStang]

12 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

Farley confirmed the Escape is dead today, more consolidation and 100% online and fixed prices.

 

.https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2022/06/01/ford-electric-vehicles-online-sales-non-negotiable-price/7468899001/

Few stand out points

 

-- Ford estimates the company's distribution model is about $2,000 per vehicle more expensive than Tesla, including one-third being inventory sitting on dealer lots, one-third or $500 to $600 per vehicle on public advertising.

-- "Our model is messed up. We spend $600 or $700 on the vehicle to promote it and we spend nothing post-warranty on the customer experience. The problem is, on a parts business, which historically has been very profitable, we only get, maybe, only 10 or 20% of the customers come back to us."

 

--"If you ever see Ford Motor Co. doing a Super Bowl ad on our electric vehicles, sell the stock."

-- While Ford focuses on its iconic products, vehicles such as the Ford Edge and Escape will give way to Mustang and Bronco, Farley said.

 

I have to believe this means ford intends to further expand the bronco and mustang lineups. There would be no reason to kill off good selling vehicles like the edge and escape to focus more on the mustang and bronco unless they were planning something.