Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related

[ice-capades]

22 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Farley appears to be in over his head. 

 

Your opinion. Now back it up with some facts for justification.  

[DeluxeStang]

24 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Farley appears to be in over his head. 

I think he's doing great this far. He's clearly passionate about the companies products.

 He understands the importance of differentiating yourself from competitors. His commitment to quality is up there with Mually, like Hackett, he believes in apply creative and unconventional methods to develop new products, and he understands the importance of developing new evs, while still investing enough in ICE in the near future to keep it relevant. Imo, you couldn't really ask for a better CEO. 

[Footballfan]

35 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

Your opinion. Now back it up with some facts for justification.  

Dropping the Edge with no direct replacement to start. Spitting the company into two operating units will be an administrative nightmare. Cutting out your 3000 dealers in selling EVs will certainly alienate them.  

 

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

I have to believe this means ford intends to further expand the bronco and mustang lineups. There would be no reason to kill off good selling vehicles like the edge and escape to focus more on the mustang and bronco unless they were planning something.

Good selling vehicles do not mean good profit.  GM was near #1 in sales when it went bankrupt.  What he’s saying is he wants to keep cash cows with high profit margins and milk them as much as possible, and that means things like F series and Ranger and Bronco/Bronco Sport/Maverick and larger SUVs and Mustang family where there is less competition and higher margins and vehicles that can be sold with minimal incentives.

 

Its all about maximizing limited resources.  You have to invest in EVs but you need ICE profit to fund it.

 

Farley gets it and this is absolutely the right move for Ford even though it will piss off fans of the discontinued vehicles.

[Harley Lover]

24 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Dropping the Edge with no direct replacement to start. Spitting the company into two operating units will be an administrative nightmare. Cutting out your 3000 dealers in selling EVs will certainly alienate them.  

 

 

Edge was apparently a loss leader even though sales were decent. 

I think Ford allowed Escape to get knee capped by the finance end of the company, it was cost cut to mediocrity when the latest gen debuted (particularly the interior).

Ford is not cutting out the dealers on EVs, that is a falsehood. The dealers are directly involved with Ford's planning for EVs.

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

Dropping the Edge with no direct replacement to start. Spitting the company into two operating units will be an administrative nightmare. Cutting out your 3000 dealers in selling EVs will certainly alienate them.  

 

They dropped Fusion, Focus, Fiesta and Ecosport and replaced them with Maverick, Bronco Sport, Bronco, Ranger and Mach-E.  Surely you can see the benefit from a business standpoint.

[akirby]

24 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Edge was apparently a loss leader even though sales were decent. 

I think Ford allowed Escape to get knee capped by the finance end of the company, it was cost cut to mediocrity when the latest gen debuted (particularly the interior).

Ford is not cutting out the dealers on EVs, that is a falsehood. The dealers are directly involved with Ford's planning for EVs.

Exactly.  They’re cutting out dealer inventory and price negotiations.  Buyers have proven they’re willing to order non commodity vehicles at MSRP online.

[FordBuyer]

26 minutes ago, akirby said:

Exactly.  They’re cutting out dealer inventory and price negotiations.  Buyers have proven they’re willing to order non commodity vehicles at MSRP online.

 

I think it's more like they have no choice...either order and wait months or buy preowned. Where did that term come from.....non commodity? How is a hybrid, plugin Escape pigeon holed as expendable. It's the only non full electric vehicle Ford makes that sips expensive gas other than Maverick hybrid. Ford can sell everyone at full price no problem. 

[rperez817]

32 minutes ago, akirby said:

They dropped Fusion, Focus, Fiesta and Ecosport and replaced them with Maverick, Bronco Sport, Bronco, Ranger and Mach-E.  Surely you can see the benefit from a business standpoint.

 

Ford's strategy of dropping uncompetitive products that were marketed for the "deal" and replacing them with award winning vehicles that customers choose based on product merit was brilliant. This is exactly the kind of action necessary to make Ford "fit".

[akirby]

22 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

I think it's more like they have no choice...either order and wait months or buy preowned. Where did that term come from.....non commodity? How is a hybrid, plugin Escape pigeon holed as expendable. It's the only non full electric vehicle Ford makes that sips expensive gas other than Maverick hybrid. Ford can sell everyone at full price no problem. 

Maybe they need the batteries for Bronco/Ranger/Bronco Sport/Maverick hybrids that have even better ROI.  Maybe even though it’s a good seller the overall profit margin is still low.

[rmc523]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:44 AM, bzcat said:

 

Oakville is supposed to get 5 models so... Escape, Corsair, Explorer, Aviator, and next gen Mach E - makes sense they are all on GE2.

 

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to invest in tooling and supply chain for both MEB and GE2 in the same plant when GE2 is flexible and scalable. 

 

The MEB model that Ford is planning in Europe is a mid sized CUV and CUV coupe. It was previewed 2 months ago. And I just remembered that we determined Puma EV will be using Ford's modified B platform from Transit Courier and Ford Otosan is taking over the Romanian plant to build Puma EV and Transit Courier. So Ford is really only planning to build 1 MEB in Europe with 2 bodystyles - basically, Farley has scaled back Hackett's MEB plan considerably. 

 

Originally, Ford was going to use MEB worldwide and build as many as 5 million vehicles on MEB. Now, it looks like only 1 plant will build MEB (Cologne) and limited to the midsize CUV and the "sport crossover" derivative. I will bet that if Farley can undo the VW deal, he would (as he did with Hackett's plan to use Rivian platform). Ford stands to gain a lot more from the VW alliance because VW is exiting pickup truck and midsize commercial van business both of which are way more important to Ford. Amarok and Transporter will add meaningful volume to Ford's EV push on the truck and van side. And if that means Ford has to use MEB for 1 model instead of its own GE2, it just has to be done. 

 

 

how are they getting enough volume for 5 products at one plant without major expansion?   Unless they’re projecting a small fraction of current sales?

 

21 hours ago, akirby said:

Again - people who buy a Sasquatch don’t care about mpgs.

 

Complaining about fuel economy on high performance or specialized vehicles is like complaining that a base Mustang is only 300 hp when there is a GT and GT500 available.

 

Ok.  If you say so.  I don’t care about MPGs.   Glad you determined that for me lol.

 

to matter of factly 100% say people with Sasquatch don’t care about MPGs is just plain untrue.

while it may not be on the top of the list, i and others absolutely do care and would like more out of it.

[FordBuyer]

47 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

how are they getting enough volume for 5 products at one plant without major expansion?   Unless they’re projecting a small fraction of current sales?

 

 

Ok.  If you say so.  I don’t care about MPGs.   Glad you determined that for me lol.

 

to matter of factly 100% say people with Sasquatch don’t care about MPGs is just plain untrue.

while it may not be on the top of the list, i and others absolutely do care and would like more out of it.

 

Weird how I see a lot of expensive, gas guzzling vehicles lined up at Sam's Club looking for cheaper gas and willing to wait 30+ minutes to do so. Crazy world.

[FordBuyer]

49 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

how are they getting enough volume for 5 products at one plant without major expansion?   Unless they’re projecting a small fraction of current sales?

 

 

Ok.  If you say so.  I don’t care about MPGs.   Glad you determined that for me lol.

 

to matter of factly 100% say people with Sasquatch don’t care about MPGs is just plain untrue.

while it may not be on the top of the list, i and others absolutely do care and would like more out of it.

 

Most people are on budgets, even those with high 6 figure incomes. Add in high inflation, and those budgets are getting stretched. 

[akirby]

58 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Ok.  If you say so.  I don’t care about MPGs.   Glad you determined that for me lol.

 

to matter of factly 100% say people with Sasquatch don’t care about MPGs is just plain untrue.

while it may not be on the top of the list, i and others absolutely do care and would like more out of it.

Well nobody would turn down more mpg, but to put it another way if you’re buying a Sasquatch them fuel economy is not your #1 goal.

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Well nobody would turn down more mpg, but to put it another way if you’re buying a Sasquatch them fuel economy is not your #1 goal.

sure.  But to say/imply people that buy Sasquatch just plain don’t care about fuel economy at all isn’t true.

[akirby]

20 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

sure.  But to say/imply people that buy Sasquatch just plain don’t care about fuel economy at all isn’t true.

Poor wording.  It was in the context of Bronco sales being in trouble because Sasquatch gets poor mpg.

[silvrsvt]

My Non SAS Bronco so far is getting better MPGs then my SHO does around town. 

[twintornados]

16 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

My Non SAS Bronco so far is getting better MPGs then my SHO does around town. 

 

I am averaging 19.7 in my 2021 BD non-sasquach 2.3L / 10 speed auto 

[silvrsvt]

28 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

I am averaging 19.7 in my 2021 BD non-sasquach 2.3L / 10 speed auto 

 

I don't even have 300 miles on mine and I'm at 18MPG with the 2.7L

Also discovered where all the ponies are at in it when I tried out sport mode yesterday for the first time yesterday...damn its nearly as quick as the SHO with advanced track off with a tune  There is a considerable difference in Normal and eco modes with the engine/transmission vs it being in sport mode. 

[rmc523]

17 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I don't even have 300 miles on mine and I'm at 18MPG with the 2.7L

Also discovered where all the ponies are at in it when I tried out sport mode yesterday for the first time yesterday...damn its nearly as quick as the SHO with advanced track off with a tune  There is a considerable difference in Normal and eco modes with the engine/transmission vs it being in sport mode. 

yeah there’s definitely a noticeable difference between the 3 modes.

[jpd80]

On 6/3/2022 at 1:09 AM, Harley Lover said:

 

Edge was apparently a loss leader even though sales were decent. 

I think Ford allowed Escape to get knee capped by the finance end of the company, it was cost cut to mediocrity when the latest gen debuted (particularly the interior).

Ford is not cutting out the dealers on EVs, that is a falsehood. The dealers are directly involved with Ford's planning for EVs.

From the start, Edge was pitched at similar prices as the Explorer, so far from a loss leader.

Combined sales of Edge and Explorer has lead to a strong result against the likes of GM mid sized Equinox and Traverse, the only reason the Edge is on the skids is because Ford screwed up the design of CD6 replacement and cancelled late in the development stage. Those who have reportedly seen the the thing claim it was an awful or awkward style that didn’t transfer well to the vehicle’s size. A lot of pain could have been avoided if the Explorer had been developed as regular and shorter  wheelbase. Once again Ford doing things twice over and screwing it up. Range Rover showed them how but Ford wasn’t watching or didn’t care.

Edited June 4, 2022 by jpd80

[Harley Lover]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

From the start, Edge was pitched at similar prices as the Explorer, so far from a loss leader.

 

Sorry but not in the marketplace. The Edge could be found routinely with discounts from $4-10k depending on the model. There's a reason it's dead man walking, otherwise why wouldn't Ford continue it?

[rperez817]

On 6/1/2022 at 10:27 PM, jasonj80 said:

Farley confirmed the Escape is dead today, more consolidation and 100% online and fixed prices.

 

.https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2022/06/01/ford-electric-vehicles-online-sales-non-negotiable-price/7468899001/
 

 

There was some confusion in the media about what Farley's comment about "100% online and fixed prices" means for the Ford BEV distribution model. Ford spokesman Said Deep provided a clarification to Road & Track magazine yesterday. Ford Clarifies CEO Jim Farley's Comments on Digital Sales (caranddriver.com)

 

Quote

Rather than a complete transition to a new distribution model, Ford spokesperson Said Deep told Road & Track, Ford is simply discussing developing a 100 percent digital online transaction platform, not transitioning 100 percent of sales to a digital platform. In Farley's initial comments reported Thursday, he compared the sales strategy to the way some retail companies have adjusted to digital competitors.

When asked if the change would mean transitioning away from a dealer model to focus on direct-to-consumer sales, Deep reaffirmed that the Ford dealer network remains a crucial element of the company's future.

Edited June 4, 2022 by rperez817

[ice-capades]

37 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Sorry but not in the marketplace. The Edge could be found routinely with discounts from $4-10k depending on the model. There's a reason it's dead man walking, otherwise why wouldn't Ford continue it?

 

Ford incentives vary depending on the market and are based on extensive monitoring of sales and incentives including that of the competitors. In today's new market conditions, Ford incentives are certainly much less of a factor, but actual vehicle pricing and product differentiation remain important factors that customers consider.

 

The 5-passenger Edge and the 7-passenger Explorer are very different vehicles. Besides the seating, there's a very different sense of space, cargo capacity and other features. Like other models, Edge sales go up and down based on available inventory and other factors but in my market the Edge has done well and developed a very loyal owner body. I've often wondered how much use those 3rd row seats get in the 7-passenger vehicles and whether the expense is really justified. Perhaps the Edge customer base could be served in the future by either an Edge successor model or a 5-passenger Explorer model with enough differentiation. 

[jasonj80]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Sorry but not in the marketplace. The Edge could be found routinely with discounts from $4-10k depending on the model. There's a reason it's dead man walking, otherwise why wouldn't Ford continue it?

The Edge never lost money, it was a Fusion with a 10-15k price increase. So even discounted it was selling for way more than the Fusion it was based on. Edge issue was if never had a champion in Ford, that is the sole reason it is dead and never had hybrid or plug in developed (even though it was the original show car for fords hybrid tech). If a program is to survive in Ford it has to have internal fighters for project funds, it was never a priority vehicle for Ford.