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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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On 11/29/2022 at 12:56 PM, Rick73 said:

 

Tips seem targeted at F-150 Lightning customers, yet content is appropriate for any electric vehicle.  Timing is also interesting because customers should have already been aware of winter’s affect, or been told prior to purchase, not reminded afterwards.  It almost seems like negative marketing, as if Ford is intentionally trying to reduce demand.

When I first saw this a week ago or so, I personally found it to be negative marketing. You can argue it is a reminder for  the current owners, however it also tells potential new owners there are compromises with the new technology.  The various charging recommendations are fine but the recommendations regarding your driving habits or your ability to use the heater are not positive IMO. 

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35 minutes ago, tbone said:

When I first saw this a week ago or so, I personally found it to be negative marketing. You can argue it is a reminder for  the current owners, however it also tells potential new owners there are compromises with the new technology.  The various charging recommendations are fine but the recommendations regarding your driving habits or your ability to use the heater are not positive IMO. 


They may not be positive but they’re 100% accurate and I doubt this would dissuade potential buyers.

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5 hours ago, tbone said:

Perhaps not, but I hope they get to a point that compromise is not needed sooner rather than later. 

 

5 hours ago, akirby said:


That will require next Gen batteries at a minimum.  Maybe two gens,


 

 

And that’s the thing, battery tech is constantly improving, heck manufacturers are trying to improve cathodes on LFP batteries that makes a switch to solid state unnecessary. Everything is a race to keep buyers interested in their new product over the competition, so it’s not like releasing a gas engine and improving it by 10 hp a year…

Edited by jpd80
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Ford achieved a big milestone for BEV earlier this week. The 150,000th Mustang Mach-E rolled off the line at Cuautitlán Stamping & Assembly Plant (CSAP). Ford Builds 150,000th Mustang Mach-E; Available in 37 Countries for 2023 with Plans to Add More Soon | Ford Media Center

 

Highlights.

  • Ford has built its 150,000th Mustang® Mach-E® and is now offering the vehicle in 37 countries worldwide with plans to add more markets next year
  • The company is accelerating Mustang Mach-E production and targeting global annual production rate of 270,000 as part of its plan to scale to a rate of 600,000 electric vehicles annually by the end of 2023 and 2 million by 2026 
  • More than 8 in 10 Mustang Mach-E customers in the U.S. and 9 in 10 Mach-E customers in Europe have replaced an internal combustion vehicle with Mustang Mach-E 
  • Ford is the No. 2-selling electric vehicle brand in the U.S. thanks to strong demand for Mustang Mach-E, which is turning on dealer lots in just 10 days

1669759982932.jpg

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10 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Everything is a race to keep buyers interested in their new product over the competition, so it’s not like releasing a gas engine and improving it by 10 hp a year…

 

This is a race in which car buying customers are the real winners. No wonder the global automotive industry has effectively terminated further R&D for ICE powertrains.

 

ICE powered (including hybrid) cars and trucks in 2023 will be in the same position as plasma display panel TVs in 2013. It's an obsolete technology.

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5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

This is a race in which car buying customers are the real winners. No wonder the global automotive industry has effectively terminated further R&D for ICE powertrains.

 

ICE powered (including hybrid) cars and trucks in 2023 will be in the same position as plasma display panel TVs in 2013. It's an obsolete technology.

I don't know if its 2013 yet. Maybe more like 2010. The LED TVs are there but way more expensive than plasmas. Small ICE crossovers and hybrids will still be the majority of the market for several years.  I don't see the sales graphs crossing until late in this decade. RAV4? CRV? Not even Tesla has caught these models yet have they?

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

This is a race in which car buying customers are the real winners. No wonder the global automotive industry has effectively terminated further R&D for ICE powertrains.

 

ICE powered (including hybrid) cars and trucks in 2023 will be in the same position as plasma display panel TVs in 2013. It's an obsolete technology.

The consumer electronics arena is indeed filled with well intended, rapidly replaced technology. Burn any CD's lately? Me neither. Not so much in the personal transportation arena, though. BEV trucks & SUVs used for long distance drives, especially when towing, are not ready for prime time. Range anxiety has added charge time anxiety as a whine-point. ~100mi on a charge while towing ensures that ICE w/wo hybrid will be with us for at least another generation, IMO. Cold weather performance is another issue; efficiency decreases at a higher rate than Ice vehicles. A Mach-e or Lightning would work perfectly for us most of the time. We're both retired and 95%+ of our driving is 50 miles or less a day. but I still want my Ranger for cross-time zone trips, especially with my 500 lb motorcycle in the bed: 360mi range, 8 minute fill up.

Paradigm shift is slower than we like. Autocar, first American truck maker, started manufacturing in 1899, but trucks had not largely replaced horses for urban delivery until the Thirties.

 

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3 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

Paradigm shift is slower than we like.

 

Even Jim Farley is amazed at how rapidly the global automotive industry has pivoted from ICE vehicles to BEV.  Earlier this year he said "It seems to be going much faster than all of us forecasted... I mean it’s gone so much faster than people think. So much faster than the charging experience. So much faster than the purchase price. So much faster than you would have predicted".

 

Farley previously predicted that mass adoption of BEV would begin in 2023, but the U.S. actually reached the "tipping point" in the second half of 2022. Europe and China achieved that milestone just prior to that.

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11 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

This is a race in which car buying customers are the real winners. No wonder the global automotive industry has effectively terminated further R&D for ICE powertrains.

 

ICE powered (including hybrid) cars and trucks in 2023 will be in the same position as plasma display panel TVs in 2013. It's an obsolete technology.

 

 

I see greater similarities compared to nuclear power plants from roughly 50 years ago.  Nuclear was to eliminate our dependency on foreign oil, and would make cheap electric for everyone.   There were still unresolved technical issues, but many Americans were confident we would find solutions.  However, it only took one major accident to essentially end nuclear’s promise of clean cheap power.

 

Even though an unexpected event like Three Mile Island didn’t completely end nuclear, it made it much more expensive and opened the door for “obsolete” technologies like coal to continue.  Isn’t it interesting that 50 years later, humans are building more coal power plants than nuclear, even though reduction of GHGs is so important?

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15 hours ago, rperez817 said:

ICE powered (including hybrid) cars and trucks in 2023 will be in the same position as plasma display panel TVs in 2013. It's an obsolete technology.


You are certainly one for hyperbole.  This isn’t even a realistic statement.  Do you realize the backlog of ICE vehicles Ford has unfulfilled that people seem eager to buy, or you just choosing to ignore it?  The amount of electric vehicles Ford is selling is meager in comparison to the overall total of ICE vehicles. You will argue they are constrained by the supply chain, but so are the ICE vehicles.  Literally nobody I know is seeking to buy a BEV.  Its not to imply they aren’t good vehicles or they won’t be the future, but this transition is going to be a lot longer than that.

 

If Ford bets the farm on electric vehicles and discontinues ICE vehicles too soon, they won’t be in business for long, IMO. 

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13 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

 

I see greater similarities compared to nuclear power plants from roughly 50 years ago.  Nuclear was to eliminate our dependency on foreign oil, and would make cheap electric for everyone.   There were still unresolved technical issues, but many Americans were confident we would find solutions.  However, it only took one major accident to essentially end nuclear’s promise of clean cheap power.

 

Even though an unexpected event like Three Mile Island didn’t completely end nuclear, it made it much more expensive and opened the door for “obsolete” technologies like coal to continue.  Isn’t it interesting that 50 years later, humans are building more coal power plants than nuclear, even though reduction of GHGs is so important?

 

And I think all the EV's in the world combined won't put a dent in GHG produced by China and India.

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10 hours ago, tbone said:

If Ford bets the farm on electric vehicles and discontinues ICE vehicles too soon, they won’t be in business for long, IMO. 

 

Ford is "all in" with BEV and was the first legacy automaker to separate its BEV and advanced technology operations from ICE vehicle operations (Model e and Blue divisions). The biggest business risk for Ford isn't discontinuing ICE vehicles too soon. Just the opposite. It's continuing to straddle the old and new worlds of the automotive industry, to paraphrase what former Ford CEO Jim Hackett said.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if a spinoff of Ford Blue to private equity firms or to a consortium of ICE business remnants for other legacy automakers and suppliers happens in the next 5 years.

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On 11/5/2022 at 12:45 PM, rperez817 said:

Thanks for sharing this jpd80, looks like Ford extended the deadline for dealerships to make a decision regarding their investment for selling and servicing BEV. The original deadline was October 31, 2022. New deadline is December 2, 2022. Ford Delays Deadline for Dealership EV Spending Requirements - TeslaNorth.com

 

The day of reckoning for Ford dealers was yesterday, but some dealerships and dealership lobbying interests have continued to push back. In Connecticut, one of its U.S. senators (Blumenthal) even wrote a letter to Jim Farley. Blumenthal to Ford: Give Dealers More Time to Resolve Concerns Over Model E Program | U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal (senate.gov)

 



Mr. James D. Farley, Jr.

President and Chief Executive Officer Ford Motor Company

1 American Road

Dearborn, Michigan 48126

 

Dear Mr. Farley,

I write to urge your extension of the arbitrary deadline of this Friday, December  2, 2022, for dealers to decide whether or not to opt in to the Ford Model e program until further discussions between Ford and its dealers resolve dealers’ outstanding concerns about the requirements of the Ford Model e program.

Let me be clear: I do not seek to postpone or delay the rollout of electric vehicles. Electric vehicles are the future, and I commend Ford’s investment in their development.

Widespread adoption of electric vehicles depends on consumer access to affordable cars and high-quality servicing. Your dealers are currently able to provide these critical services to consumers at reasonable prices for legacy vehicles. However, I have heard from dealers across Connecticut that the Ford Model e program, as proposed, would limit their ability to provide the same affordability and level of service for electric vehicles.

Imposing Friday’s deadline is antithetical to consumers’ interests. Dealers who do not opt in to making the investments necessary to achieve ‘Model e Certified’ or Model e Certified Elite’ status would be prohibited from selling or servicing electric vehicles.  It is unreasonable to expect that all dealers, in just a few months, are able to commit to hundreds of thousands of dollars in investments that could take years to see the returns of. Fewer Ford Model e dealers lessens competition and consumer choice. Consumers should not be punished for Ford imposing on its dealers tight deadlines requiring high-cost investments.

While I commend the effort to promote electric vehicle use, it is clear the Ford Model e program requires further discussion before implementation. Dealers from numerous states — including Connecticut — have sent you letters raising concerns about the Model e program and the requirements it imposes on dealers. Instead of locking dealers out from selling electric vehicles after Friday, I urge you to work with these dealers to find a future for the program that enables all dealers to sell electric vehicles without onerous requirements for doing so.

Thank you for your consideration of my letter. I hope to hear from you before Friday.

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford is "all in" with BEV and was the first legacy automaker to separate its BEV and advanced technology operations from ICE vehicle operations (Model e and Blue divisions). The biggest business risk for Ford isn't discontinuing ICE vehicles too soon. Just the opposite. It's continuing to straddle the old and new worlds of the automotive industry, to paraphrase what former Ford CEO Jim Hackett said.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if a spinoff of Ford Blue to private equity firms or to a consortium of ICE business remnants for other legacy automakers and suppliers happens in the next 5 years.


We will see whose right soon enough.  

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4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

...Wouldn't be surprised if a spinoff of Ford Blue to private equity firms or to a consortium of ICE business remnants for other legacy automakers and suppliers happens in the next 5 years.

 

I don't see the Ford Family allowing it to be spun off, ....completely separated companies with their own structures, but no one will control a Ford branded vehicle other than the Ford Family.

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22 hours ago, tbone said:


You are certainly one for hyperbole.  This isn’t even a realistic statement.  Do you realize the backlog of ICE vehicles Ford has unfulfilled that people seem eager to buy, or you just choosing to ignore it?  The amount of electric vehicles Ford is selling is meager in comparison to the overall total of ICE vehicles. You will argue they are constrained by the supply chain, but so are the ICE vehicles.  Literally nobody I know is seeking to buy a BEV.  Its not to imply they aren’t good vehicles or they won’t be the future, but this transition is going to be a lot longer than that.

 

If Ford bets the farm on electric vehicles and discontinues ICE vehicles too soon, they won’t be in business for long, IMO. 

The thing is that what we are seeing hitting the road now was designed roughly five years ago. What Ford is working on now won’t see the road till 2028, when the BEVs will be at least 30-40% of the market, if not more. 
 

Ford can keep building ICE products for the next five years with a minimum of investment in new engines, but CAFE will make it next to impossible to keep down that path sooner then later. 

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An update on the Ford program requiring dealers to invest if they want to sell EV's: 

Quote

About two-thirds of Ford Motor Co.'s U.S. dealer network has signed up for the automaker's electric-vehicle certification program, CEO Jim Farley said Monday.

Speaking at the Automotive News Congress in Detroit, Farley said 1,920 retailers have agreed to follow rigorous new sales standards and invest heavily in EV chargers and training.

Of those, Farley said, 1,659 chose the Certified Elite track, which requires investing as much as $1.2 million. He said 261 dealers chose the Certified status, which requires up to a $500,000 investment while capping their EV sales at 25 per year.

 

Two thirds of the dealers. Interesting...

https://www.autonews.com/world-congress/ford-says-1920-us-dealers-agree-new-ev-rules?utm_source=breaking-news&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221205&utm_content=hero-headline

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Wish they’d have published the list. As an owner of a Ford EV it’d be nice to know if I can continue my relationship with my dealer (whom I’ve bought my last four cars from, have one on order from, and have used for service for more than a decade).  I’m sure I could reach out to my salesman, but most don’t have that kind of relationship. 

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2 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

An update on the Ford program requiring dealers to invest if they want to sell EV's: 

 

Two thirds of the dealers. Interesting...

https://www.autonews.com/world-congress/ford-says-1920-us-dealers-agree-new-ev-rules?utm_source=breaking-news&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221205&utm_content=hero-headline

 

One opinion is that releasing this info is an effort to get the other one third to come along and join in.

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1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

One opinion is that releasing this info is an effort to get the other one third to come along and join in.

With other brands like Caddy or Buick doing something similar, there will be a decent amount of them that don’t do this-I wonder if the owners are just at that age that they want out or just want to coast along till they retire/shut down? 

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