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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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2 hours ago, twintornados said:

One opinion is that releasing this info is an effort to get the other one third to come along and join in.

 

The reality is their next opportunity to join won't be until 2025: 

Quote

The company said those that didn't sign up by last week's deadline will not be allowed to sell EVs beyond 2023 but will have another opportunity to do so in 2025.

Farley has said Ford’s retailer need to evolve to better compete with EV startups like Tesla and others that sell directly to customers.
“The future of the franchise system hangs in the balance here,” Farley said. “The No. 1 EV player in the U.S. bet against the dealers. We wanted to make the opposite choice.”

“We want to work with our dealers, but there are certain things our customers want that are nonnegotiable,” he said.

 

https://www.autonews.com/world-congress/ford-says-1920-us-dealers-agree-new-ev-rules?utm_source=breaking-news&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221205&utm_content=hero-headline

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My unresearched guess is that nearly all of the multi-rooftop dealer groups are in, the less than 300 new retail sales/yr stores, ain't.

My cynical guess is this is Ford's ploy to scavenge some of the watershed profits that many dealers have been reaping.

 

 

Edited by Chrisgb
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The Jim Farley quote that Harley Lover shared a couple posts up perfectly describes the dilemma that Ford is in: Direct to consumer is the superior sales model for BEV, but Ford in its current form can't take advantage of it primarily due to regulatory roadblocks. 

 

This is going to be tough for Ford and its franchised dealerships alike. Ford has a long history of poor working relations with dealers. Jim Farley admitted this back in June.

 

"Our model is messed up. We spend $600 or $700 on the vehicle to promote it and we spend nothing post-warranty on the customer experience"

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3 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

My cynical guess is this is Ford's ploy to scavenge some of the watershed profits that many dealers have been reaping.

How is that even possible? ADMs benefit dealerships only and unless Ford is upping the price on a product they aren’t going to make more profit. 

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The current issue with this is going to be getting those chargers installed at dealerships, less than 20% of the dealers that have applied to one of the major utilities in Metro Detroit are in a location that the grid can handle for installation of rapid chargers. While upgrades are coming this is going to be a short/mid term issue over the next few years while the grid upgrades are going on.

One of the biggest challenges in charging right now is charger location and having excess local grid capacity.

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On 12/6/2022 at 10:15 AM, Chrisgb said:

My cynical guess is this is Ford's ploy to scavenge some of the watershed profits that many dealers have been reaping.

 

Both Ford and its dealerships benefit from the model that Jim Farley proposed. Provisions to emphasize retail sold orders, digital sales infrastructure, and minimal new vehicle inventory at dealerships enhance profitability for Ford by reducing sales incentives. At the same time, they enhance profitability for dealerships by dramatically curtailing floorplan expenses, reducing "lot rot", and simplifying the sales process. Plus, the EVSE provisions for dealerships will make them more competitive for BEV sales and service.

 

It's all about "shipping product to the point of optimum demand", as John McElroy of Autoline Daily said. Direct-to-consumer does this best, but Jim Farley's plans for Ford Model e dealerships represent a reasonable effort within the otherwise flawed franchised dealership system in the U.S.

 

Edited by rperez817
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On 12/3/2022 at 11:04 AM, rperez817 said:

 

The day of reckoning for Ford dealers was yesterday, but some dealerships and dealership lobbying interests have continued to push back. In Connecticut, one of its U.S. senators (Blumenthal) even wrote a letter to Jim Farley. Blumenthal to Ford: Give Dealers More Time to Resolve Concerns Over Model E Program | U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal (senate.gov)

 

 

 


the dealer I think I mentioned earlier in this thread near me ended up closing already.

 

On 12/6/2022 at 2:46 PM, jasonj80 said:

The current issue with this is going to be getting those chargers installed at dealerships, less than 20% of the dealers that have applied to one of the major utilities in Metro Detroit are in a location that the grid can handle for installation of rapid chargers. While upgrades are coming this is going to be a short/mid term issue over the next few years while the grid upgrades are going on.

One of the biggest challenges in charging right now is charger location and having excess local grid capacity.


this is exactly what happened to the local dealer I mentioned above.   The power grid in the area can’t handle the necessary power, so they couldn’t get city approval, so they just closed completely almost immediately.   They were willing to upgrade, but couldn’t for reasons out of their control.  So instead, Ford lost a 50+ year old dealer and the only Lincoln dealer in the area in an area that sells a lot of Lincolns

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So if we get to this time next year and ford is bumbling along at 10,000 to 15,000 BEVs a months,

a lot of dealers are gonna be mighty pissed….

 

at present, there are 2,975 dealerships across 50 states and 2,297 cities. So let’s assume that 2,000 sign up so they can sell. EVs, 25 cars a month would mean Ford would need to  be making over 50,000 a month……..with respect, that’s a looong way off.

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9 hours ago, rmc523 said:

The power grid in the area can’t handle the necessary power, so they couldn’t get city approval, so they just closed completely almost immediately.  


No, no that’s not possible.  Every business and every home can easily be upgraded to charge BEVs.  [/sarcasm]
 

I keep saying that just because the grid is ok doesn’t mean individual locations can be easily upgraded without major expense.

 

BEV demand is a cliff for now.  I don’t know if the cliff is at 10%, 20% or 50% but it’s there until the next generation of BEVs and batteries.

 

A large group of buyers want them now.  But there is an even larger group that doesn’t want anything to do with them including superduty buyers.

And then there are the folks in between who would buy one if they were cheaper and/or had easier/faster/cheaper charger options.

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10 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

 

Thanks for sharing this DeluxeStang. As the article mentioned, "coupe" could refer either to the form factor of the current Mustang coupe, or to a "SUV Coupe". I hope Mach-E Coupe is the former, and that it starts production (along with the regular next gen Mach-E) in July 2026 as specified in the AutoForecastSolutions document. Better yet, earlier than July 2026. Both GM and Stellantis plan to release BEV muscle car coupes in the 2024-2025 timeframe, which will make ICE powered cars in that category obsolete. 

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Better yet, earlier than July 2026. Both GM and Stellantis plan to release BEV muscle car coupes in the 2024-2025 timeframe, which will make ICE powered cars in that category obsolete. 

To me, a significant draw of an ICE muscle car is the sound produced; all that auditory energy produced at the air intake and expelled out the exhaust. Originally, they were quite a bit faster than most bread-and-butter cars of the day, less true today.

Me casts a jaundiced eye on BEV muscle cars. Bad enough there won't be a manual transmission,  I could buy a Rivian R1-S  or -T with 700-ish horsepower for the same money as a comparable e- muscle car, also with no snort announcing my arrival. Can you build a louder armature? "Cat back" magnets? I don't know. 

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4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Thanks for sharing this DeluxeStang. As the article mentioned, "coupe" could refer either to the form factor of the current Mustang coupe, or to a "SUV Coupe". I hope Mach-E Coupe is the former, and that it starts production (along with the regular next gen Mach-E) in July 2026 as specified in the AutoForecastSolutions document. Better yet, earlier than July 2026. Both GM and Stellantis plan to release BEV muscle car coupes in the 2024-2025 timeframe, which will make ICE powered cars in that category obsolete. 

Yeah, I tend to lean towards it being an actual coupe considering there were rumors awhile back that the mach-e platform would be used for a sports car. Plus the current mach-e is basically a coupe/fastback shape already. So I don't see how they could make a crossover that's even more coupe inspired if you see what I mean. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

To me, a significant draw of an ICE muscle car is the sound produced; all that auditory energy produced at the air intake and expelled out the exhaust. Originally, they were quite a bit faster than most bread-and-butter cars of the day, less true today.

Me casts a jaundiced eye on BEV muscle cars. Bad enough there won't be a manual transmission,  I could buy a Rivian R1-S  or -T with 700-ish horsepower for the same money as a comparable e- muscle car, also with no snort announcing my arrival. Can you build a louder armature? "Cat back" magnets? I don't know. 

This is why I'm starting to believe hydrogen fuel cells will eventually take over. They offer many of the same benefits of evs and ICE combined. Only really downside is the lack of refueling infrastructure, but the same thing could have been said about evs 5-10 years ago.  

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4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Thanks for sharing this DeluxeStang. As the article mentioned, "coupe" could refer either to the form factor of the current Mustang coupe, or to a "SUV Coupe". I hope Mach-E Coupe is the former, and that it starts production (along with the regular next gen Mach-E) in July 2026 as specified in the AutoForecastSolutions document. Better yet, earlier than July 2026. Both GM and Stellantis plan to release BEV muscle car coupes in the 2024-2025 timeframe, which will make ICE powered cars in that category obsolete. 

It's probably the latter.  According to the same forecasters, a new (presumably electric) Mustang is scheduled to be built at Flat Rock starting 2029.

 

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/7th-gen-2030-bronco-coming-end-of-2029-together-with-electric-bronco-ev.60742/

 

Check out the attachment at the bottom of the first post on this link. 

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14 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

 

I'm sure it is a 4 door SUV coupe type vehicle.

 

More interesting news here is the timing... July 2026 which is about 1.5 years later than previous timeline. The 2nd gen Mach E was supposed to be a 2026 model but now it is 2027. I guess the Explorer EV delays have a knock-on effect on Mach E too. 

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

I'm sure it is a 4 door SUV coupe type vehicle.

 

More interesting news here is the timing... July 2026 which is about 1.5 years later than previous timeline. The 2nd gen Mach E was supposed to be a 2026 model but now it is 2027. I guess the Explorer EV delays have a knock-on effect on Mach E too. 

And then there’s the Rumour of CE1 for compact BEV (Maverick) going into Louisville in 2027. CE1 is supposed to be using GE2 modules and batteries, so maybe Ford finally  has a unified electrification strategy. 
 

Which leaves me wondering about the European Cologne plant building orphan VW based vehicles and what Ford Europe has planned in the meantime. There’s Puma EV and a suggestion that Ford Europe is looking to BEV it’s C2 vehicles (they need BEV yesterday)

 

one final thought on the 2027 launch dates for a lot of Ford’s electric vehicles, just beyond the expiry date of the approaching UAW agreement? Maybe an attempt to keep these negotiations more about changes coming in next three years…

Edited by jpd80
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7 hours ago, akirby said:

A large group of buyers want them now.  But there is an even larger group that doesn’t want anything to do with them including superduty buyers.

And then there are the folks in between who would buy one if they were cheaper and/or had easier/faster/cheaper charger options.

 

An early adopter I know well upgraded his Tesla S for a new one, and told me the longer 400-mile range was part of decision.  His first S was capable of around 270 miles.  The interesting thing is that they do all long trips in their ICE SUV, so I was curious why he upgraded when the EV is mostly used for local trips and didn’t need the added range.  He said it was because he could, and that you can never have too much range even if you don’t use it.  He loves the Tesla and said he would buy another BEV for his wife, but that he doesn’t want to be without an ICE vehicle for longer road trips.  So for years they have had one of each (BEV and ICE) and will likely remain that way in foreseeable future; and it is due to preference,  not cost.

 

To your point above, some buyers may also “want them now”, but in limited quantities.  I will consider one BEV for local trips to be charged at home, but the other primary vehicle will be gas-powered for foreseeable future.

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At the moment, Ford has no way of delivering the 200,000 Lightning orders on its books, suppliers have told Ford that they can’t/not able to ramp up supplies to meet Ford’s accelerated timetable. They’re even struggling with ICE deliveries, 150k orders for Super Duty, 86,000 orders for Maverick but seem to have plenty of Explorers…..

 

I just don’t see Ford resolving that demand in the next few months, 2023 looks to be more of the same but guaranteed income from forward orders is a welcome bonus. 

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2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

An early adopter I know well upgraded his Tesla S for a new one, and told me the longer 400-mile range was part of decision.  His first S was capable of around 270 miles.  The interesting thing is that they do all long trips in their ICE SUV, so I was curious why he upgraded when the EV is mostly used for local trips and didn’t need the added range.  He said it was because he could, and that you can never have too much range even if you don’t use it.  He loves the Tesla and said he would buy another BEV for his wife, but that he doesn’t want to be without an ICE vehicle for longer road trips.  So for years they have had one of each (BEV and ICE) and will likely remain that way in foreseeable future; and it is due to preference,  not cost.

 

To your point above, some buyers may also “want them now”, but in limited quantities.  I will consider one BEV for local trips to be charged at home, but the other primary vehicle will be gas-powered for foreseeable future.

The early adopters buying first gen Mach E’s and Lightnings at prices that are big premiums compared to ICE models are probably going to take a big financial hit as better battery technology develops. There aren’t going to be many willing to buy these models when better batteries are available unless they buy the used BEV’s at big discounts. 

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Looks like we are getting a Bronco EV in 2029 along with the Ranger at BOC

  • Current Bronco (U725) end of production: October 2029
  • Next gen Bronco (U765) start of production: November 2029 (ending 2036)
  • Electric Bronco EV / BEV (U800) start of production: November 2029 (ending 2036)
  • 7th gen Bronco will remain on the T6 platform and continue being built at Michigan Assembly Plant
  • Electric Bronco BEV will be built on TE1 platform (shared with Ranger BEV) and built at Blue Oval City in Tennessee


7thgen-2030-bronco-bronco-ev.thumb.jpg.24d68509af56ed5e1207a2b20349df63.jpg

 

 

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8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

)one final thought on the 2027 launch dates for a lot of Ford’s electric vehicles, just beyond the expiry date of the approaching UAW agreement? Maybe an attempt to keep these negotiations more about changes coming in next three years…


Contracts are 4 year agreements. Those launch targets are likely aiming to keep some bargaining chips on the table going into the next negotiating period in 2027. 

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