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Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related


rperez817

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1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

rperez817, I’m curious what are “typical” differences in fast DC charging of your Mach E versus your Tesla S, particularly maximum rate (kW) and ease of entire process.  I’m not sure which Tesla S or Mach E you have, but assume your Model S charges much faster than your wife’s Mach E, especially when kWh are converted to MPH of driving range.  I’m interesting in learning about typical or normal charging, not that one unusual day when all-stars-aligned kind of event.

 

Sure thing Rick73. Our cars are.

  • 2018 Tesla Model S 75D (75 kWh battery)
  • 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E First Edition (88 kWh battery)

Almost all charging for both cars takes place at home using a 48 amp Level 2 AC charger from Enphase Energy. As such, I'll say that the "typical" charging experience is similar for both cars since they use the same charging apparatus, with the Mach-E taking slightly longer to charge fully due in part to the larger battery.

 

For DC fast charging, our experience is limited. I've used Tesla Superchargers in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana with my Model S over the years, most recently in February 2023. Charging rate has averaged about 90 kW. For the Mach-E, my wife uses it mostly for local driving in the DFW Metroplex so we haven't used DC fast charging for it recently.  In the past (last time was in March 2022), we've used EA and ChargePoint DCFC stations in North and Central Texas listed in the FordPass app for our Mach-E. Average charging rate was about 80 kW for one of the ChargePoint stations, nothing for a second ChargePoint station (it didn't work at all), 76 kW for one EA station, and nothing for 2 other EA stations (they also malfunctioned).

 

So overall, the DCFC charging experience for me has been much better with Tesla Superchargers versus EA and ChargePoint simply because each Supercharger I used worked the first time, every time. 

 

20 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

Tesla chargers are faster and always work because they're a decade+ ahead of everyone else on developing all of this stuff*

 

That's correct Captainp4. This fact is reflected in the most recent J.D. Power EVX study.

2022098b.JPG

 

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3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

For DC fast charging, our experience is limited. I've used Tesla Superchargers in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana with my Model S over the years, most recently in February 2023. Charging rate has averaged about 90 kW. For the Mach-E, my wife uses it mostly for local driving in the DFW Metroplex so we haven't used DC fast charging for it recently.  In the past (last time was in March 2022), we've used EA and ChargePoint DCFC stations in North and Central Texas listed in the FordPass app for our Mach-E. Average charging rate was about 80 kW for one of the ChargePoint stations, nothing for a second ChargePoint station (it didn't work at all), 76 kW for one EA station, and nothing for 2 other EA stations (they also malfunctioned).


Thanks for information.  It appears that for many existing owners the much faster charge rates of up to 250~300 kW won’t add as much value as the extra number of locations and stations. 

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Interesting development with Ford-Tesla charging access agreement.

Surely, gives Tesla more guaranteed  income and strong reason to accelerate roll out even more charger locations. A kind of weird symbiosis that benefits both while gapping GM on charger infrastructure.
 

Maybe this forces GM to approach Tesla for a similar agreement and even more income for Tesla?

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2 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe this forces GM to approach Tesla for a similar agreement and even more income for Tesla?

 

Unlike Jim Farley, GM's CEO Mary Barra doesn't seem to have much respect or even acknowledgement for Tesla's leading position with BEV in the U.S. market. This is GM's biggest weakness nowadays.

 

Nonetheless, it would be nice if GM eventually follows Ford and adopts both NACS charging port and seamless integration with Tesla Superchargers for their BEV. This is a great opportunity for the Big 3 U.S. automakers (GM, Ford, and Tesla) to beat competitors from Europe and Asia as the global automotive industry transitions to all-electric vehicles.

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10 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Unlike Jim Farley, GM's CEO Mary Barra doesn't seem to have much respect or even acknowledgement for Tesla's leading position with BEV in the U.S. market. This is GM's biggest weakness nowadays.

 

Nonetheless, it would be nice if GM eventually follows Ford and adopts both NACS charging port and seamless integration with Tesla Superchargers for their BEV. This is a great opportunity for the Big 3 U.S. automakers (GM, Ford, and Tesla) to beat competitors from Europe and Asia as the global automotive industry transitions to all-electric vehicles.

Thinking that GM may be forced to negotiate or be quickly out flanked/ left behind  on charging centre numbers and roll out. This could be the moment when, multiple manufacturers realise scales of economy demand swallowing your pride…An opportunity for three US EV manufacturers to gap European and Asian manufacturers- nip them in the bud so to speak….

 

It would behove Ford, GM, Stellantis to all have agreements with Tesla on charging infrastructure as kind of national standard in North America and set the foundations for next decade of change.

Think big…

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56 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

This could be the moment when, multiple manufacturers realise scales of economy demand swallowing your pride…An opportunity for three US EV manufacturers to gap European and Asian manufacturers- nip them in the bud so to speak….

 

Most definitely. Ed Loh of Motor Trend wrote a good editorial today about this, providing a solid rationale on why Ford's decision was brilliant. Ford Just Made a Brilliant, Blindingly Obvious Move by Embracing Tesla Charging (motortrend.com)

 

Highlights.

  1. Tesla's Supercharger network is the gold standard of EV charging and has been since the earliest days of its rollout. And it's not even close.
  2. But it's not just the sheer number of Supercharging stations that matters, it's the user experience. Tesla chargers just work. Period. 
  3. Building a charging network doesn't just provide an opportunity to recharge the car, it provides the chance to surprise and delight customers and burnish the brand.
  4. When Tesla announced its Supercharger network a decade ago, it was derided as a fool's errand that could bankrupt the company [the naysayers were completely wrong, of course]. Ford has recognized that this competitive advantage is worth embracing. It's time for other manufacturers to follow suit.
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7 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Most definitely. Ed Loh of Motor Trend wrote a good editorial today about this, providing a solid rationale on why Ford's decision was brilliant. Ford Just Made a Brilliant, Blindingly Obvious Move by Embracing Tesla Charging (motortrend.com)

 

Highlights.

  1. Tesla's Supercharger network is the gold standard of EV charging and has been since the earliest days of its rollout. And it's not even close.
  2. But it's not just the sheer number of Supercharging stations that matters, it's the user experience. Tesla chargers just work. Period. 
  3. Building a charging network doesn't just provide an opportunity to recharge the car, it provides the chance to surprise and delight customers and burnish the brand.
  4. When Tesla announced its Supercharger network a decade ago, it was derided as a fool's errand that could bankrupt the company [the naysayers were completely wrong, of course]. Ford has recognized that this competitive advantage is worth embracing. It's time for other manufacturers to follow suit.


The Motor Trend article implies that luxury brands should have their own proprietary systems, but wouldn’t that lead to too many dedicated systems, much like Tesla has been until now?  I can’t see how anything short of a universal system that can serve all BEVs will work in practice, essentially the equivalent of gas stations where any car or vehicle can be refueled.

 

To the point of charging in undesirable places, where people can be more vulnerable to weather as well as crime, this has to be addressed.  There is safety in numbers, and large “electric” stations with convenience stores and restrooms, etc. are necessary.  The easiest and most effective way to accomplish safety is to have greater charging centralization.

 

A recent study concluded that while women buy about 50% of cars, they buy a much smaller percentage of BEVs (~28% if I recall correctly).  Study attributed part of trend to their lower income on average, but also concluded women are more concerned with charging safety.

 

 

“Because as good as Supercharger network may be in terms of uptime and operation, all charging networks—Tesla's included—have a long ways to go in terms of overall user experience. Functional and fast chargers in a safe, well-lit location are only table stakes. All charging networks should also offer protection from the elements, trash and recycling bins, and clean restroom facilities available at all hours. Luxury brands should go even further. Why not have areas for weary travelers (and their pets) to stretch their legs, get refreshments, maybe even get some work done? The opportunities to deliver a truly world-class charging experience, one that can separate and define a brand, are unlimited.“

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There are probably many reasons for gender-based BEV buying differences, safety concerns likely just one of them.  Much has been written on subject, though it doesn’t mean it’s correct.  Below is just one of many opinions:

 

https://19thnews.org/2023/03/electric-vehicles-gender-gap/

 

“This lack of reliability in charging infrastructure and considerations for safety could help explain why women like Russak and her partner make up the minority of electric car drivers. But they aren’t the only factors contributing to the gender gap. Early research and recent surveys point to factors ranging from socioeconomic status, to experiences at car dealerships, to less awareness of how electric cars work.”

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Rivian has been building out an exclusive charging network (using a standard CCS plug) but has announced they will be opening it to others. 
 

There is a legitimate safety concern while charging as there is no way to drive away while plugged in. Someone recently came out with an adapter for Teslas that allows them to breakaway. 

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How ironic that as gas stations are slowly replaced by EV charge stations,

those coffee shops that once survived on people going in to pay for fuel are

now set to  thrive with a captive audience waiting for their vehicles to charge…

 

Interesting how behaviours change over the decades….

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Saw these fan renderings of t3 and the e -xplorer. I'm digging it, will be interesting to see how close to reality these are. I will say the T3 rendering looks like it would be better suited to something like a ranchero revival with its long hood and slanted cab back. Could be a cool truck for blurring the line between a truck and a muscle car or something. 

IMG_20230528_115444.jpg

IMG_20230528_115426.jpg

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10 hours ago, zipnzap said:



I bet for some time, we're 20 years into people questioning and doubting Tesla and they just keep on growing and proving everyone wrong. I was in the "will never work, they'll never turn a profit" camp at some point not that many years ago, but they always seem to come out on top.

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Last week, Ford announced a collaboration with Uber called Ford Drive that provides Mustang Mach-E leasing programs tailored to Uber drivers/contractors. Ford Next Launches Flexible Lease Pilot – Ford Drive – With Uber, Aiming to Boost Electric Rideshare Adoption | Ford Media Center

 

Highlights.

  • New pilot program creates flexible electric solutions for drivers who use the Uber platform in select U.S. markets, allowing them to lease a vehicle for more customized time periods
  • The pilot is the first of its kind between an automaker and rideshare network, furthering both companies’ electrification and emissions goals
  • When high-mileage drivers make the switch to electric, communities see up to four times the emissions reduction benefit compared to the average car owner, according to Uber’s SPARK! Report
  • Drivers with Uber in San Diego, San Francisco and Los Angeles can sign up now on the Uber Marketplace. Additional details about the pilot are available on forddrive.com

1685581193669.jpg

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On 5/26/2023 at 11:12 PM, jpd80 said:

Interesting development with Ford-Tesla charging access agreement.

Surely, gives Tesla more guaranteed  income and strong reason to accelerate roll out even more charger locations. A kind of weird symbiosis that benefits both while gapping GM on charger infrastructure.
 

Maybe this forces GM to approach Tesla for a similar agreement and even more income for Tesla?

Yep

GM partners with Tesla for Supercharger access, adoption of NACS - Autoblog

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Looks like NACS has now become the de facto standard in the North American market, whatever the Federal Government has to say, and the network that provides it is owned by Tesla (which will be getting a huge infusion of cash as a result and presumably will be expanding its supercharger network rapidly to meet the anticipated new demand). I wonder if CCS can even survive in this market after next year.

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11 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Looks like NACS has now become the de facto standard in the North American market, whatever the Federal Government has to say, and the network that provides it is owned by Tesla (which will be getting a huge infusion of cash as a result and presumably will be expanding its supercharger network rapidly to meet the anticipated new demand). I wonder if CCS can even survive in this market after next year.

Good that NACS is becoming the unofficial charging standard, the government shouldn’t be putting money into anything but  electric infrastructure to support this charging network, make it the standard The next network to develop is Tesla’s 800 volt system for trucks and large vehicles…

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Ford Cologne EV Center officially opened yesterday. Ford Opens Cologne EV Center – Home of a New Generation of Electric Vehicles – First Carbon Neutral Assembly Plant | Ford Media Center

 

Highlights.

  • The Ford Cologne Electric Vehicle Center officially opens following a $2 billion investment to transform the historic plant, first founded in 1930
  • The hi-tech center will produce a new generation of electric passenger vehicles for European markets and secure skilled German manufacturing jobs
  • Ford Cologne Electric Vehicle Center will be Ford’s first carbon neutral vehicle assembly plant globally, an important milestone on the Road to Better
  • With an annual production capacity of 250,000 EVs, the new EV Center supports the company’s global plans to reach a run rate of two million EVs annually by the end of 2026

image.thumb.png.6790936e505a9aeace1686ea23a57b49.png

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On 5/27/2023 at 12:23 AM, rperez817 said:

Unlike Jim Farley, GM's CEO Mary Barra doesn't seem to have much respect or even acknowledgement for Tesla's leading position with BEV in the U.S. market. This is GM's biggest weakness nowadays.

 

Nonetheless, it would be nice if GM eventually follows Ford and adopts both NACS charging port and seamless integration with Tesla Superchargers for their BEV. This is a great opportunity for the Big 3 U.S. automakers (GM, Ford, and Tesla) to beat competitors from Europe and Asia as the global automotive industry transitions to all-electric vehicles.

 

On 6/9/2023 at 12:13 AM, AGR said:

 

Rivian announced today that it is following Ford and GM in adopting NACS for its BEV. Now all of the Big 3 U.S. automakers plus 1 of the smaller ones are going the NACS route. Wouldn't be surprised if Lucid Motors is next. Rivian Accelerates Electrification through Adoption of North American Charging Standard

 



Irvine, California – June 20, 2023. Rivian Automotive, Inc. (NASDAQ: RIVN) today announced it has signed an agreement with Tesla to provide Rivian drivers access to Tesla’s Supercharger network across the United States and Canada. Central to its mission to electrify and decarbonize transportation, Rivian will also continue to expand its own Rivian Adventure Network.  

An adapter will be available to enable Rivian's award-winning R1T and R1S to charge on the Supercharger network as early as spring 2024. Rivian will incorporate North American Charging Standard (NACS) charge ports as standard in future R1 vehicles starting in 2025, as well as in its upcoming R2 platform.  

Transportation is responsible for over a quarter of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, highlighting the urgent need to electrify the sector and preserve our world for future generations. By enabling drivers to charge their vehicles at a greater number of locations, this collaboration and others like it are important to help accelerate EV adoption.

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