Electric Vehicle Discussion Thread - Ford Related

[jpd80]

29 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Have they moved into MP1 yet? Those are sale-able units and the majority can and probably will be shipped to dealers. 

I haven’t seen any split out of Lightning production  figures for November but hoping there might be this month.

Ford is on record as saying that there’s only 15,000 planned builds in 2022, interesting to see what happens with this……

[jpd80]

Rivian was planning to build 1,200 vehicles this year, they fell short by a few hundred, so I wouldn’t be getting too excited either way until we see how the ramp up in January and February actually goes…….

[fuzzymoomoo]

48 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Both. R.J. Scaringe said during the Rivian 3Q 2021 earnings call that "global supply-chain constraints, the COVID-19 pandemic, a tight labor market, and short-term issues around building electric battery modules" are impacting the launch and production ramp up of R1T, R1S, and delivery vans.

Sounds like the majority of it is really out of their control then

[akirby]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Lightning doesn’t use a Skateboard but it does have a perimeter frame that is markedly different to the ladder frame used in ICE F150. The nett effect is the same,  this is the last stop in evolving an existing design towards a true skateboard chassis. 

They call it a skateboard and it’s body on frame - what’s the difference?

[jpd80]

59 minutes ago, akirby said:

They call it a skateboard and it’s body on frame - what’s the difference?

The difference will be apparent when you see TE1 skateboard, Mike Levine posted this on Twitter,

”The BEV-exclusive TE1 platform should be superior in every aspect compared to the present F-150 Lightning riding on the gasoline model’s modified chassis (pictured). Image: Twitter/Mike Levine

 

[akirby]

Then it will be interesting to see how it stacks up against a true skateboard.

[jpd80]

16 minutes ago, akirby said:

Then it will be interesting to see how it stacks up against a true skateboard.

It will do fine, the perfect answer for a BEV built in an ICE plant but when freedom permits, an all new skateboard design will be more efficient to build.

 

(I know Ford won’t but part of me hopes that it keeps building this type BEV as well as the new one)

Edited December 31, 2021 by jpd80

[FordBuyer]

4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Both. R.J. Scaringe said during the Rivian 3Q 2021 earnings call that "global supply-chain constraints, the COVID-19 pandemic, a tight labor market, and short-term issues around building electric battery modules" are impacting the launch and production ramp up of R1T, R1S, and delivery vans.

 

Actually, Musk termed it correctly during Tesla's 1st 2 years of production.......he called it PRODUCTION HELL. An apt description. Now Rivian is entering production hell and it will last longer for obvious reasons. 

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

It will do fine, the perfect answer for a BEV built in an ICE plant but when freedom permits, an all new skateboard design will be more efficient to build.

 

(I know Ford won’t but part of me hopes that it keeps building this type BEV as well as the new one)

 

A skateboard may be more efficient to build, but it will also, most likely, be one gigantic compromise totally devoid of all personality.  All that will matter is to put as many different top hats on the skateboard as a factory can handle.  A boring auto world ahead, I'm afraid.  

[jpd80]

28 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

A skateboard may be more efficient to build, but it will also, most likely, be one gigantic compromise totally devoid of all personality.  All that will matter is to put as many different top hats on the skateboard as a factory can handle.  A boring auto world ahead, I'm afraid.  

The things that define a “vehicle’s personality” are in what we see and feel, the sensation that we experience, not the frame and parts we don’t see.
 

You may mourn the loss of missing parts but most buyers won’t give it a second thought.

Edited December 31, 2021 by jpd80

[rperez817]

10 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

A skateboard may be more efficient to build, but it will also, most likely, be one gigantic compromise totally devoid of all personality.  All that will matter is to put as many different top hats on the skateboard as a factory can handle.  A boring auto world ahead, I'm afraid.  

 

10 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The things that define a “vehicle’s personality” are in what we see and feel, the sensation that we experience, not the frame and parts we don’t see.
 

You may mourn the loss of missing parts but most buyers won’t give it a second thought.

 

Skateboard based BEV may be boring to a few automotive engineers and designers used to the "old way", but as jpd80 mentioned for customers and everyone else, it's not boring at all.

 

In fact, the efficiencies automakers gain from skateboard based designs will enable them to provide a greater variety of those things that customers "see and feel", as well as provide new design and engineering possibilities that make vehicles less compromised than ever before. Rivian R1T is a good example. Its skateboard design allowed Rivian engineers and designers to redefine "what a modern pickup truck can be", as Motor Trend said in its 2022 Truck of the Year review. The Rivian R1T Is the 2022 MotorTrend Truck of the Year

 

The skateboard is a blank canvas, and Rivian has demonstrated how to seize the opportunity it provides without offending historic truck-buyer sensibilities.

The 2022 Rivian R1T shows the world a new way to build a pickup and new ways to think about truck design, engineering, and use case. And it gives up almost nothing in capability in the process. It shows us pickups can be for people who never wanted one. It shows us they can be more than leather-lined tools, that commercial applications are not the exclusive starting point in envisioning a new truck. Most important, it shows us they can be electric vehicles—and be better for it.

[rmc523]

22 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

Report out today that best production rate Rivian can hope for for all of 2022 is 150 vehicles/day. That means most of their orders will not be fulfilled until 2024. Add in the long range battery delay. During that time they will be burning through cash and borrowing lots of money to build 2nd plant in Georgia. So for at least 2 years, best production estimate is maybe 40,000 vehicles/year. Wow, things will get tight for sure. 

 

Compare that to Ford that builds 850,000 ICE FSeries/year and probably 20,000 Lightnings this year. And another 50,000+ Mach Es for 2022. Stark contrast.

 

My brother saw a R1T on the road just yesterday, said it looked pretty good.

 

14 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

A skateboard may be more efficient to build, but it will also, most likely, be one gigantic compromise totally devoid of all personality.  All that will matter is to put as many different top hats on the skateboard as a factory can handle.  A boring auto world ahead, I'm afraid.  

 

I think it can go the other way - it can open up opportunities for lower volume projects as they can spread costs over whatever uses the skateboard rather than a single model.

[jpd80]

The main advantage I see is a change in weight distribution and a lower center of gravity, both of those conducive to better handling/road holding. 

[akirby]

46 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The main advantage I see is a change in weight distribution and a lower center of gravity, both of those conducive to better handling/road holding. 

Pretty sure you get that with the current Lightning chassis too.

[fuzzymoomoo]

34 minutes ago, akirby said:

Pretty sure you get that with the current Lightning chassis too.

I was driving behind 2 Lightnings on my way (by pure coincidence) to Dearborn this morning and it looked to me like they ride just a little bit lower than the gas powered F-150. 

[jpd80]

39 minutes ago, akirby said:

Pretty sure you get that with the current Lightning chassis too.

Of course but we’ll probably see a lot more improvement with the electric skateboard

 

“The BEV-exclusive TE1 platform should be superior in every aspect compared to the present F-150 Lightning riding on the gasoline model’s modified chassis” - Twitter/Mike Levine

 

I don’t mean to read more into Levine’s post but he seems rather confident that there’s much more

for Ford to achieve with the TE1 skateboard……

Edited December 31, 2021 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

35 minutes ago, akirby said:

Pretty sure you get that with the current Lightning chassis too.

I was driving behind 2 Lightnings on my way (by pure coincidence) to Dearborn this morning and it looked to me like they ride just a little bit lower than the gas powered F-150. 
 

unrelated sidebar: one of those 2 didn't have the light bar across the tailgate for some reason and IMO it looked much better than the one that did. 

[jpd80]

18 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I was driving behind 2 Lightnings on my way (by pure coincidence) to Dearborn this morning and it looked to me like they ride just a little bit lower than the gas powered F-150. 
 

unrelated sidebar: one of those 2 didn't have the light bar across the tailgate for some reason and IMO it looked much better than the one that did. 

Maybe a fleet or commercial version?

 

Happy new year guys, nursing a slight hangover this morning……….

Edited December 31, 2021 by jpd80

[rperez817]

19 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Happy new year guys, nursing a slight hangover this morning……….

 

Thank you jpd80 sir for the new year wishes, I hope you had a great start 2022 (hangover not withstanding). ?

[akirby]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Of course but we’ll probably see a lot more improvement with the electric skateboard

 

“The BEV-exclusive TE1 platform should be superior in every aspect compared to the present F-150 Lightning riding on the gasoline model’s modified chassis” - Twitter/Mike Levine

 

I don’t mean to read more into Levine’s post but he seems rather confident that there’s much more

for Ford to achieve with the TE1 skateboard……

Oh I don’t doubt it’s better but a lot of that is on the manufacturing and design side.  I do t expect a huge improvement in performance or handling.

[jpd80]

24 minutes ago, akirby said:

Oh I don’t doubt it’s better but a lot of that is on the manufacturing and design side.  I do t expect a huge improvement in performance or handling.

I’m sure that GM will remind us everyday of how superior their Skateboard Silverado is over the Lightning,

it’s kind of GM’s OCD to do that but I’m hoping that by the time any of that bites, TE1 will be the answer.

 

It must really gall GM that Ford got there first and that it has such a cool name, it means they will come out guns a blazing’ with promotion once Lightning is on sales, we’ll see the big comparison between Lightning’s frame and batteries vs GM Ultium skateboard, they have to do that if only to make themselves feel good.

Edited December 31, 2021 by jpd80

[sullynd]

Kind of surprised they don’t come out swinging with BEV Tahoe/Suburban first. 

[jpd80]

12 minutes ago, sullynd said:

Kind of surprised they don’t come out swinging with BEV Tahoe/Suburban first. 

That’s not the GM way, they’re making $100,000 Hummers first because it’s all show and wow to everyone that won’t be owning one

[fuzzymoomoo]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe a fleet or commercial version?

 

Happy new year guys, nursing a slight hangover this morning……….

The one without the light bar was a TT build. The one with was a PP build.  That had to have something to do with it. Parts maybe? 
 

For the record it looks way better without the light bar. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by fuzzymoomoo

[Sherminator98]

As for skateboard design vs unibody and driving experience…why would it be any different then C platform Ford Ice product being used on the Focus and Escape/Kuga?
 

A skateboard will still have different suspension tuning and electric motor power levels, just like ICE products…all a skateboard platform does is allow for better manufacturing processes vs a unibody, not wholesale dumbing down of the driving experience