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Dodge Bombshell: Charger, Challenger Gone By 2024, EV Arrives Soon


Harley Lover

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2 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

So the lower hp motor also gets a lower output battery. I think @silvrsvt's point and mine, is that the BMW 281hp version would go farther than the 335hp version using the same 81.5kWh battery, if it were offered in that configuration.

 

Thanks for the clarification Chrisgb. That's certainly possible, but I'd expect that the difference in range between an i4 eDrive35 and an i4 eDrive40 with the same battery energy rating (say 81.5 kWh as you mentioned) to be small in comparison to the difference in acceleration and other performance parameters that depend heavily on the motor power rating. AC electric motors used for propulsion in BEV are extremely efficient, typically 95% or more.

 

Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo presents a good example of a BEV with multiple motor power options, all with the same battery (93 kWh).

  • Taycan 4 Cross Turismo. Power rating = 469 hp, EPA estimated range = 215 mi. 0-60 mph = 4.8 s
  • Taycan 4S Cross Turismo. Power rating = 563 hp, EPA estimated range = 215 mi. 0-60 mph = 3.9 s
  • Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo. Power rating = 671 hp, EPA estimated range = 204 mi. 0-60 mph = 3.1 s
  • Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo. Power rating = 751 hp, EPA estimated range = 202 mi. 0-60 mph = 2.7 s

Overall, the range in range ? from the 4 Cross Turismo model up to the Turbo S Cross Turismo model is fairly small, only 13 mi., due to battery energy rating being the same across the board. By comparison, the range in motor power rating (282 hp.) and 0-60 mph acceleration times (2.1 s) is enormous.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Dodge uses an approach similar to Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo regarding battery and electric motor specification for its upcoming BEV muscle cars.

Edited by rperez817
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/3/2022 at 8:44 AM, rperez817 said:

 

Thanks for the clarification Chrisgb. That's certainly possible, but I'd expect that the difference in range between an i4 eDrive35 and an i4 eDrive40 with the same battery energy rating (say 81.5 kWh as you mentioned) to be small in comparison to the difference in acceleration and other performance parameters that depend heavily on the motor power rating. AC electric motors used for propulsion in BEV are extremely efficient, typically 95% or more.

 

Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo presents a good example of a BEV with multiple motor power options, all with the same battery (93 kWh).

  • Taycan 4 Cross Turismo. Power rating = 469 hp, EPA estimated range = 215 mi. 0-60 mph = 4.8 s
  • Taycan 4S Cross Turismo. Power rating = 563 hp, EPA estimated range = 215 mi. 0-60 mph = 3.9 s
  • Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo. Power rating = 671 hp, EPA estimated range = 204 mi. 0-60 mph = 3.1 s
  • Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo. Power rating = 751 hp, EPA estimated range = 202 mi. 0-60 mph = 2.7 s

Overall, the range in range ? from the 4 Cross Turismo model up to the Turbo S Cross Turismo model is fairly small, only 13 mi., due to battery energy rating being the same across the board. By comparison, the range in motor power rating (282 hp.) and 0-60 mph acceleration times (2.1 s) is enormous.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Dodge uses an approach similar to Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo regarding battery and electric motor specification for its upcoming BEV muscle cars.

 

In Taycan's case, the range difference is mainly attributable to difference size wheels. Turbo and Turbo S has bigger standard wheel than 4 and 4S so the unsprang weight causes the range to go down. 

 

The relationship between power and range in ICE is a tradeoff. You increase one side and the other side decrease.

 

It is not the case in EV. You want more range, you increase the battery size, which generates higher peak output.

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3 hours ago, ehaase said:

 

Oh this looks very cool. They totally nailed the design. Hope the production car keeps the size and shape.

 

The fake gears and engine noises are very stupid though.

 

This is supposed to be 2024 model... same with S650 Mustang. I have to say that if Charger is full EV and Mustang is holdover ICE, it will make the Mustang totally irrelevant. The decision to postpone all-new EV Mustang to 2030 seems like a mistake if Stellantis can pull this off in 2024. 

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5 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Oh this looks very cool. They totally nailed the design. Hope the production car keeps the size and shape.

 

The fake gears and engine noises are very stupid though.

 

This is supposed to be 2024 model... same with S650 Mustang. I have to say that if Charger is full EV and Mustang is holdover ICE, it will make the Mustang totally irrelevant. The decision to postpone all-new EV Mustang to 2030 seems like a mistake if Stellantis can pull this off in 2024. 

The thing is that you still need to appeal to the V8 crowd that want the noise and shake of it. They are often the most anti ev crowd too. 
 

I think the bigger issue is do they actually have batteries lined up to produce it in similar numbers to what the charger does now.

 

Keeping that in mind-I think Ford has the right path forward-the Mustang is important, but electrifying F-series and Explorer in the next three years is more important the Mustang coupe, since they already have the Mach E. I’m willing to assume Ford is willing to let it wither on the vine a bit to get the more important products done first and more importantly have batteries to put into them. 

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7 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Oh this looks very cool. They totally nailed the design. Hope the production car keeps the size and shape.

 

The fake gears and engine noises are very stupid though.

 

This is supposed to be 2024 model... same with S650 Mustang. I have to say that if Charger is full EV and Mustang is holdover ICE, it will make the Mustang totally irrelevant. The decision to postpone all-new EV Mustang to 2030 seems like a mistake if Stellantis can pull this off in 2024. 


The Charger Daytona SRT Concept's design is pretty much what the current ICE Charger would have looked like if they made it as retro as the Challenger.  
dodge-charger-daytona-srt-concept.jpg
200-mph-cars.jpg
 

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This concept is hot, really hot. Looks like a 2 door sedan…. And this is ok because with one concept , Stellantis can preview the 4 door sedan Charger and the 2 door coupe Challenger.   The car is stunning.   And yes, the EV Mustang coupe/convertible will be late to the EV muscle car party.  By mid decade, the ICE Mustang coupe will be completely irrelevant 

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2 hours ago, .I. said:

This concept is hot, really hot. Looks like a 2 door sedan…. And this is ok because with one concept , Stellantis can preview the 4 door sedan Charger and the 2 door coupe Challenger.   The car is stunning.   And yes, the EV Mustang coupe/convertible will be late to the EV muscle car party.  By mid decade, the ICE Mustang coupe will be completely irrelevant 

 

Truth be told, Ford id very tight lipped about what is coming. With a little luck, Ford has a 69 Boss 429 inspired EV coming out for 2024 also. But we are probably not that lucky. We will end up with another Mach E looking ho hum car.

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43 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Has that been confirmed? Stellantis' and GM's BEV muscle car entries should prompt Ford to bring out a BEV Mustang coupe and convertible closer to 2025.


A Mustang EV coupe is far less important than F150 Lightning, Mach-E and E-Transit.  Or electrified Ranger and Bronco Sport.  From a business standpoint.

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38 minutes ago, akirby said:

A Mustang EV coupe is far less important than F150 Lightning, Mach-E and E-Transit.  Or electrified Ranger and Bronco Sport.  From a business standpoint.

 

I agree. Just surprised that Ford has postponed BEV Mustang coupe until 2030. Last year, Sam Fiorani from AutoForecast Solutions said that Ford's GE2 platform for BEV "will debut in mid-2023" and "will be used as the base for replacements for the Mustang coupe and Mach-E". EXCLUSIVE Ford follows GM, VW with two new dedicated EV platforms by 2025 -sources | Reuters

 

Even though F-150 Lightning, Mustang Mach-E, e-Transit, BEV Ranger, and BEV Bronco Sport are more important to Ford, Jim Farley said that Mustang coupe/convertible represents an "icon". As such, I figured Ford would try to bring BEV Mustang coupe/convertible to market well before 2030. The BEV muscle cars from Dodge (as described in this thread) and GM slated for a mid-decade debut will instantly make ICE powered muscle cars from all companies uncompetitive.

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I think this is a pretty sweet concept, however the fake sound is lame as hell.  
 

I suspect there is an overestimation that everyone wants to buy an EV now.   I have nothing against them, and I like their performance capability, but range and charging are still mediocre. Additionally, around me there is an insignificant amount of infrastructure in place to do a major conversion to EVs, suggesting ICE isn’t going anywhere around here anytime soon.   I’m a car person, but the average person traveling around my circles are not talking about EVs any more than any other vehicle.  I just hope Ford doesn’t take their ICE customers for granted during this long term transition.  Sorry for hijacking this thread on a tangent.  

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Isn't the platform on which this is based also capable of using ICE powertrains? I imagine that Dodge will still offer ICE powertrains in the "legacy" cars, even if the EVs are marketed as the higher-end performance powertrains. Dodge isn't a brand where the traditional buyers will convert to EV buyers that quickly. That perception may change over time, but it's not just a flip of the switch. 

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44 minutes ago, Dequindre said:

Isn't the platform on which this is based also capable of using ICE powertrains? I imagine that Dodge will still offer ICE powertrains in the "legacy" cars, even if the EVs are marketed as the higher-end performance powertrains. Dodge isn't a brand where the traditional buyers will convert to EV buyers that quickly. That perception may change over time, but it's not just a flip of the switch. 

 

The best sources say this car will be EV only, and ICE customers will have only the Hornet. Stellantis' CAFE situation is dire, and putting the Hurricane in this car won't help. Stellantis doesn't want to pay CAFE fines or keep paying Tesla for credits. 

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49 minutes ago, ehaase said:

The best sources say this car will be EV only, and ICE customers will have only the Hornet. Stellantis' CAFE situation is dire, and putting the Hurricane in this car won't help. Stellantis doesn't want to pay CAFE fines or keep paying Tesla for credits. 

 

Thanks for that info ehaase. That makes sense. Last year, Dodge brand CEO Tim Kuniskis implied that going the EV only route is how Dodge will be able to keep muscle cars alive in the future.

 

"I’m super excited about the future of electric because I think it’s what’s going to allow us to not fall off the cliff," Kuniskis said. "Without that technology, without electrification, this is 1972 right now. This thing is going to end."

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On 8/18/2022 at 7:13 PM, rperez817 said:

 

I agree. Just surprised that Ford has postponed BEV Mustang coupe until 2030. Last year, Sam Fiorani from AutoForecast Solutions said that Ford's GE2 platform for BEV "will debut in mid-2023" and "will be used as the base for replacements for the Mustang coupe and Mach-E". EXCLUSIVE Ford follows GM, VW with two new dedicated EV platforms by 2025 -sources | Reuters

 

Even though F-150 Lightning, Mustang Mach-E, e-Transit, BEV Ranger, and BEV Bronco Sport are more important to Ford, Jim Farley said that Mustang coupe/convertible represents an "icon". As such, I figured Ford would try to bring BEV Mustang coupe/convertible to market well before 2030. The BEV muscle cars from Dodge (as described in this thread) and GM slated for a mid-decade debut will instantly make ICE powered muscle cars from all companies uncompetitive.

 

What is the point if they don't have batteries for a Mustang BEV or it would take away from another program that is more important financially to Ford? In the grand scheme of things Dodge doesn't have much in the way of products and Chrysler is even worse off...Ram and Jeep are carrying Stellanist in NA for the time being. Where are the BEV Jeeps or Rams?

 

I don't think the Mustang Coupe BEV will be delayed to 2030-I think 2027MY or so is more likely, depending on the battery situation. The current gen is just another refresh of the current car and I can see it going away in 4-5 years for a BEV one. 

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I don't think the Mustang Coupe BEV will be delayed to 2030-I think 2027MY or so is more likely, depending on the battery situation. The current gen is just another refresh of the current car and I can see it going away in 4-5 years for a BEV one. 

 

Thanks, that's what I figured as well, sometime around CY 2025-2026 for 2026 or 2027 MY for BEV Mustang coupe.

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On 8/26/2022 at 3:32 PM, ehaase said:

I read this today.  I am skeptical.  I think the Dodge spokesman who said awhile back that the next Charger would be EV only is still the most reliable source of information.  This Hurricane won't help Dodge's CAFE problem much. 

 

Dodge Challenger, Charger Might Not Be Going All-Electric After All (yahoo.com)

Given how different ICE is vs BEV, your really hamstringing BEVs by not going to a bespoke platform for them. 

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On 8/26/2022 at 3:32 PM, ehaase said:

I read this today.  I am skeptical.  I think the Dodge spokesman who said awhile back that the next Charger would be EV only is still the most reliable source of information.  This Hurricane won't help Dodge's CAFE problem much. 

 

Dodge Challenger, Charger Might Not Be Going All-Electric After All (yahoo.com)

 

You are right to be skeptical. The Australian article that mentions the rumor said its basis is some "online post" from some unnamed former employee at Stellantis who "claimed he helped with creating new exhaust components for the Hurricane in the Challenger and Charger". Stellantis probably cancelled that program, maybe that's why he no longer works for the company?

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  • 2 months later...
On 12/3/2021 at 4:37 PM, rperez817 said:

Not all Dodge vehicles are super fast, though the brand does a good job imbuing a muscle car theme throughout. A "Normal, Faster, Fastest" hierarchy (per what Anthony mentioned above) already exists within the current Dodge vehicle lineup, and that concept can easily be applied to upcoming BEV Dodges. Of course, each step in the performance hierarchy will be improved with BEV compared to existing ICE powertrains.

 

I think part of Tim Kuniskis' strategy is to introduce Dodge BEV in the "Fastest" category first, then follow up with entries in "Faster" and "Normal".

 

Stellantis announced some information at SEMA Show today for Dodge Charger Daytona SRT EV and its power hierarchy. As expected, they are far superior to existing Dodge ICE muscle cars. Stellantis Media - Dodge Charger Daytona SRT Concept Reveals Updates on Brand’s Road to Electrification at 2022 SEMA Show (stellantisnorthamerica.com)

  • Normal, model "340", 400V architecture: 455 hp standard. Direct Connection OTA upgrades available to increase power to 495 hp or 535 hp.
  • Faster, model "440", 400V architecture: 590 hp standard. Direct Connection OTA upgrades available to increase power to 630 hp or 670 hp.
  • Fastest, model "SRT Banshee", 800V architecture: power level not yet announced.

Photos.

Dodge-Charger-Daytona-SRT-Banshee-Direct

cn022-051dg-1667259967.jpg

cn022-052dg-1667259967.jpg

cn022-049dg-1667259967.jpg

 

Edited by rperez817
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