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2024 Mustang Spied


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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Looking at the tea leaves with the Mustang and Flat Rock, I'm wondering if Ford is just going to keep Flat Rock running the duration of the the next contract (I think the current contract is up next year) with just the Mustang and then move it to a new plant as BEV later this decade. 

 

It seems like a complete non-starter to introduce any "new" ICE or Hybrid products in the next 3 years and after 2025, everything will be full speed ahead as a BEV or replaced as a BEV. Current ICE products will get MCE updates that will take them as close to the 2030 date, at which time they'll move to a BEV architecture at that point. That means the Bronco/Ranger and C class products (Maverick, Transit Connect, Escape, Bronco Sport). I'm not really sure if its worth bringing in a new hybrid product like a Fusion Active or some sort of other C based product based on the Evos for only 5 years or so (if it comes out as a 2023/24MY) to North America, just to have it replaced by a BEV in 2030? 

 

S650 is basically just a heavy facelift of S550 so no doubt it will stay in Flat Rock. 

 

Normally, I would agree with your take that it doesn't make any sense to introduce new hybrid drivetrain on something that is already on cost cutting list/staying on legacy platforms. But in the case of Mustang specifically, there are two considerations:

1. Ford said every model will be "electrified" by 2025 so obviously that means Mustang too.

2. Ford is working on 2.3 hybrid for Ranger so Mustang is getting it for "free" basically. And I'm not sure if 5.0 hybrid is really going to happen but if Ford wants to keep it around until 2030, it's probably worth the investment.

 

We know S650 will be the last ICE Mustang. It should be good for 2024 to 2030 model year... After that, who  knows what the market will demand? I don't think Ford has planned that far yet on what they will do with Mustang. 

 

On other products you are quite possibly correct but maybe off by a year or two. Ford still has the following ICE models to launch in North America during 2023 besides Mustang:

Ranger 

Transit Connect 

Transit

F-150

 

But these may be the last ones. 

Edited by bzcat
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6 hours ago, bzcat said:

Just speculating... I posted this before in the previous S650 thread. I think Ford is not yet ready to pull the plug on manual (it still does a decent business in Mustang) but I suspect all the auto will be hybrid. And Ford will charge a premium for "heritage" models like Bullitt or MACH 1 that will appeal to enthusiasts willing to pay the premium to keep V8+Manual+RWD in production. Just look at Porsche's business model with 911... 

 

2.3 Ecoboost manual

2.3 Ecoboost hybrid auto (optional AWD?)

5.0 V8 hybrid auto (optional AWD?)

5.0 V8 manual Bullitt or MACH 1

 

I'd throw 5.0 V8 manual in there as well - they're not going to relegate an already limited-take option like the manual to even fewer sales by locking it behind a special edition "paywall" - that kills the business case for a manual further.

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

S650 is basically just a heavy facelift of S550 so no doubt it will stay in Flat Rock. 

 

Normally, I would agree with your take that it doesn't make any sense to introduce new hybrid drivetrain on something that is already on cost cutting list/staying on legacy platforms. But in the case of Mustang specifically, there are two considerations:

1. Ford said every model will be "electrified" by 2025 so obviously that means Mustang too.

2. Ford is working on 2.3 hybrid for Ranger so Mustang is getting it for "free" basically. And I'm not sure if 5.0 hybrid is really going to happen but if Ford wants to keep it around until 2030, it's probably worth the investment.

 

We know S650 will be the last ICE Mustang. It should be good for 2024 to 2030 model year... After that, who  knows what the market will demand? I don't think Ford has planned that far yet on what they will do with Mustang. 

 

On other products you are quite possibly correct but maybe off by a year or two. Ford still has the following ICE models to launch in North America during 2023 besides Mustang:

Ranger 

Transit Connect 

Transit

F-150

 

But these may be the last ones. 

 

That statement of his I took more to mean a new model with an ICE/hybrid powertrain (i.e. bringing back the new global Mondeo as Fusion), not adding a hybrid option to an existing product.

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

 

We know S650 will be the last ICE Mustang. It should be good for 2024 to 2030 model year... After that, who  knows what the market will demand? I don't think Ford has planned that far yet on what they will do with Mustang. 

 

 

 

Never say never.  In this day and age it is hard to predict where the market will be two years from now let alone 5 or more.

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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Looking at the tea leaves with the Mustang and Flat Rock, I'm wondering if Ford is just going to keep Flat Rock running the duration of the the next contract (I think the current contract is up next year) with just the Mustang and then move it to a new plant as BEV later this decade. 

 

It seems like a complete non-starter to introduce any "new" ICE or Hybrid products in the next 3 years and after 2025, everything will be full speed ahead as a BEV or replaced as a BEV. Current ICE products will get MCE updates that will take them as close to the 2030 date, at which time they'll move to a BEV architecture at that point. That means the Bronco/Ranger and C class products (Maverick, Transit Connect, Escape, Bronco Sport). I'm not really sure if its worth bringing in a new hybrid product like a Fusion Active or some sort of other C based product based on the Evos for only 5 years or so (if it comes out as a 2023/24MY) to North America, just to have it replaced by a BEV in 2030? 

We don't know what the market will be like in 2030.  A lot of EV sales will depend if the customers will adopt them.  The government incentives to spur EV sales as well as funding to set up a nationwide charging network appear to be dead in the water.

 

Regarding converting ICE plants to EVs, Ford will more than likely to retool the plants they have- like gm is doing- rather than build new plants to replace the ones they have.

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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Looking at the tea leaves with the Mustang and Flat Rock, I'm wondering if Ford is just going to keep Flat Rock running the duration of the the next contract (I think the current contract is up next year) with just the Mustang and then move it to a new plant as BEV later this decade. 
 

This I agree with, it’s the least disruptive and “kicks the can down the road” for a few years

 

 

 

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

It seems like a complete non-starter to introduce any "new" ICE or Hybrid products in the next 3 years and after 2025, everything will be full speed ahead as a BEV or replaced as a BEV. Current ICE products will get MCE updates that will take them as close to the 2030 date, at which time they'll move to a BEV architecture at that point. That means the Bronco/Ranger and C class products (Maverick, Transit Connect, Escape, Bronco Sport). I'm not really sure if its worth bringing in a new hybrid product like a Fusion Active or some sort of other C based product based on the Evos for only 5 years or so (if it comes out as a 2023/24MY) to North America, just to have it replaced by a BEV in 2030? 

Im wondering if Ford has changed its mind recently (nixing a second vehicle at Flat Rock), the accelerated BEV plans make me think you’re on the money with your assessment…..we all want to see more products but knowing Ford, they will stick with only what’s needed.

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18 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

We don't know what the market will be like in 2030.  A lot of EV sales will depend if the customers will adopt them.  The government incentives to spur EV sales as well as funding to set up a nationwide charging network appear to be dead in the water.

 

The issue is that car makers NOW have to decide where they are putting their money at....the auto industry has a long lag time-decisions made now won't make it to the market place till 36 months or longer. 

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34 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The issue is that car makers NOW have to decide where they are putting their money at....the auto industry has a long lag time-decisions made now won't make it to the market place till 36 months or longer. 

Correct, it would be a mistake to stick to hybrids and not progress with BEVs. The world is moving to BEVs, it’s just the pace and depth of sales that still remains to be seen. CATL is well advanced with new version of sodium battery that is 1/3 cheaper than lithium batteries, higher power density and recharges to 80% in 15 mins

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We don't know what battery technology will look like in 2030 - solid state, sodium ion, etc.  I just hope that we aren't relying on foreign battery manufacturers.  CATL is a Chinese company and China could cutoff that technology to the U.S. in a heartbeat.   As far as all Ford products being electrified by 2030, it's possible because they are including BEVs and Hybrids.   But based on what we know today about BEVs, there's a lot of huddles to overcome before they will be accepted by the mass consumer - short range, long charging times, relatively short battery life, cost to buy, high insurance rates, poor performance in cold climates, lack of infrastructure (charging network).  So, hybrids and ICE vehicles may be around longer that what we think.  As far as converting their entire model lineup to BEV, Ford currently has 3 BEV products for sale or in the works - Mach-e, F150, and Transit.   There's no BEV Mustang 2 door coupe or convertible on the horizon.   The same for Bronco, Edge, Escape, Bronco Sport, Maverick.    A BEV Explorer was delayed so Ford could increase capacity for the Mach-e and F150.  Again, hybrids and ICE vehicles will be here for quite a while.  

Edited by llinthicum1
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1 hour ago, Saleen182 said:

I beg to differ. Different strokes....

saleen1.jpg

I can respect that, I just feel towards the fox body the same way some people feel towards the mach-e. Where it's something different than the traditional mustang, in the case of the foxbody, it's a hatchback in many trims. So I just don't know how to feel about it, it's the least mustang looking of the mustangs, and I'm including the mach-e in the group. You can at least see mustang styling elements all over the mach-e. Nothing about the design of the foxbody says mustang to me. 

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16 hours ago, Footballfan said:

What about Dearborn Truck? 

 

1) Given it's F-series related, I think it's hard to directly compare what they do there to other vehicle lines.

 

2) They added a separate EV line in the "parking lot" of Dearborn, so it's not like they dismantled part of the factory, added a BEV line and are running both side by side - it's effectively two separate plants as far as I understand.

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2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I can respect that, I just feel towards the fox body the same way some people feel towards the mach-e. Where it's something different than the traditional mustang, in the case of the foxbody, it's a hatchback in many trims. So I just don't know how to feel about it, it's the least mustang looking of the mustangs, and I'm including the mach-e in the group. You can at least see mustang styling elements all over the mach-e. Nothing about the design of the foxbody says mustang to me. 

 

What about the Mustang II from 1974-1978 as the least Mustang of the Mustangs?

 

The Fox Body was a product of its time-I think part of the reason it looked like it did was to do something different and fit into the Ford styling line up of the early 1980s. 

 

As keep in mind the Fox body got more and more heritage design cues as it aged, I think the 1992MY brought back the tribar with Pony and other Mustang design cues.


The SN95 was a major update of the Fox and its styling directly was influenced by earlier Mustangs, even though some people didn't care for the rounded styling (I loved the way my 1998 GT looked)  

 

The 1999 Update was a stepback styling wise IMO-it tried combining the "new edge" styling Ford was trying use at the time without changing the greenhouse and just looked disjointed overall. 

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2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

 

 

2) They added a separate EV line in the "parking lot" of Dearborn, so it's not like they dismantled part of the factory, added a BEV line and are running both side by side - it's effectively two separate plants as far as I understand.

Why can't they do the same with FRAP?

 

At DTP the paint and body lines have not been modified.  The new plant builds the EV chassis and marries an F 150 body to it. 

Edited by Footballfan
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11 hours ago, Footballfan said:

Why can't they do the same with FRAP?

 

At DTP the paint and body lines have not been modified.  The new plant builds the EV chassis and marries an F 150 body to it. 

Keep in mind that it was never intended to be a permanent or high volume solution, Lightning’s popularity is forcing more volume.

 

Yes, a BEV truck with a slightly altered ICE chassis can be built that way but that’s a long way different to setting up a dedicated BEV platform for a mid sized utility that shares nothing with a Mustang. While Ford could now prove that wrong, I suspect that there’s an easier option for GE2 Explorer/Aviator production that will put it closer to battery suppliers….

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21 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I can respect that, I just feel towards the fox body the same way some people feel towards the mach-e. Where it's something different than the traditional mustang, in the case of the foxbody, it's a hatchback in many trims. So I just don't know how to feel about it, it's the least mustang looking of the mustangs, and I'm including the mach-e in the group. You can at least see mustang styling elements all over the mach-e. Nothing about the design of the foxbody says mustang to me. 

I understand your thinking. Maybe that's why the Foxbody sold so well, for so many years....2,603,339 sold from 1979 to 1993....because it was quite different from previous stangs. I think they remain popular because so many 80s teens wanted one & couldn't afford it. Now they have money & still want that car they couldn't have in HS. Problem is, there are so few examples of quality fox bodys, since so many were ragged out. 

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2 hours ago, Saleen182 said:

I understand your thinking. Maybe that's why the Foxbody sold so well, for so many years....2,603,339 sold from 1979 to 1993....because it was quite different from previous stangs. I think they remain popular because so many 80s teens wanted one & couldn't afford it. Now they have money & still want that car they couldn't have in HS. Problem is, there are so few examples of quality fox bodys, since so many were ragged out. 

Exactly, it wasn't a bad car, I just wasn't a fan of the styling. Foxbody's appealed to people who wanted something new, and they had great tuning potential. It's just visually, they aren't my cup of tea. 

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6 hours ago, Saleen182 said:

I understand your thinking. Maybe that's why the Foxbody sold so well, for so many years....2,603,339 sold from 1979 to 1993....because it was quite different from previous stangs. I think they remain popular because so many 80s teens wanted one & couldn't afford it. Now they have money & still want that car they couldn't have in HS. Problem is, there are so few examples of quality fox bodys, since so many were ragged out. 

 

It was definitely before my time, considering I was born towards the end of its life, but I'll say this.

 

In 1978, the Fox Body Mustang, was right car for the right time. It was a very attractive new automobile in 1978 USA and a breath of fresh air. It felt more 1980s than 1970s, compared to many things on the road I imagine.

 

ford_mustang_coupe_6.thumb.jpeg.5aa7c6c39e078a0d8d57eebe3edc6270.jpegford_mustang_336.thumb.jpeg.892c24d690b40d82e95285c641992743.jpegford_mustang_4763.thumb.jpeg.2a771c7a44e7d3022cc15bfd5185fdf1.jpeg

 

And prior to that achievement at Ford, I don't see how this could have ever been a "newer" feeling car in 1973 compared to the car below it. Felt so regressive, but the fuel crisis dictated the thinking of everyone.

ford_mustang_ii_ghia_coupe_39.thumb.jpeg.2f84d34ba1bd5fee99aa54b997fcad7d.jpegford_mustang_ii_ghia_coupe_3.jpeg.c7a47a8f87532f81cea488eb5fa415cb.jpegford_mustang_convertible_5.jpg.17171cbecd868d62917d3e1014fec868.jpgford_mustang_convertible_1.jpg.774edcbb069f5c35f0cab7fb1cbb65fa.jpg

 

No disrespect here, but funny thing is the guy who designed the 1978 Bronco, also did the 1974 Mustang...?

Edited by JX1
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On 1/17/2022 at 6:39 PM, bzcat said:

 

S650 is basically just a heavy facelift of S550 so no doubt it will stay in Flat Rock. 

 

Normally, I would agree with your take that it doesn't make any sense to introduce new hybrid drivetrain on something that is already on cost cutting list/staying on legacy platforms. But in the case of Mustang specifically, there are two considerations:

1. Ford said every model will be "electrified" by 2025 so obviously that means Mustang too.

2. Ford is working on 2.3 hybrid for Ranger so Mustang is getting it for "free" basically. And I'm not sure if 5.0 hybrid is really going to happen but if Ford wants to keep it around until 2030, it's probably worth the investment.

 

We know S650 will be the last ICE Mustang. It should be good for 2024 to 2030 model year... After that, who  knows what the market will demand? I don't think Ford has planned that far yet on what they will do with Mustang. 

 

On other products you are quite possibly correct but maybe off by a year or two. Ford still has the following ICE models to launch in North America during 2023 besides Mustang:

Ranger 

Transit Connect 

Transit

F-150

 

But these may be the last ones. 

No? From what I have been told by a reliable contact, out of Dearborn. Aside from Lightning coming up in a few months, F-150 sees nothing next year (MY2023), except MCA in Q4 '23, which has already been locked in.

 

It's not a full model change like the others you listed. Maybe Super Duty, worst case scenario in Q1 2023? That is Q4 2022 at the moment I hear.

 

The next generation "P736", is 2026. The all-new Lightning will beat it to market on TE1, allegedly by 1 year.

 

Haven't been told the name of T3 architecture replacement for ICE trucks, but I'm thinking Ford might hold onto T3 longer than expected.

 

T1 was utilized was used for two generations only. First in earlier form on the P221 F-150 from 2003 to 2008, heavily revised in 2006 for the 2007 Expy and Navi, adding in December 2008 the P415 F150. Super Duty was on its own from 1998 to 2016.

 

T1 got phased out from Dec 2014 to Nov 2017, via T3 forming the P552 '15 F-150, P558 '17 SD, and '18 U55x Expy/Navi.

 

Second generation of T3 is already here since Dec 2020, on P702 F-150 and upcoming U55x MCA & P708 SD, so I'm curious what replaces it for ICE?

 

Straight move to TE1 and uncharacteristically recycle T3 for the 3rd time on ICE offerings? Or New T4/T5 for ICE P736 and 2029 SD?

 

As for thr 8th generation Mustang, it's being studied, but pre-planning aspect and not an official program yet. Advanced Engineering and Design maybe.

Edited by JX1
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27 minutes ago, JX1 said:

No? From what I have been told by a reliable contact, out of Dearborn. Aside from Lightning coming up in a few months, F-150 sees nothing next year (MY2023), except MCA in Q4 '23, which has already been locked in.

 

It's not a full model change like the others you listed. Maybe Super Duty, worst case scenario in Q1 2023? That is Q4 2022 at the moment I hear.

 

The next generation "P736", is 2026. The all-new Lightning will beat it to market on TE1, allegedly by 1 year.

 

Haven't been told the name of T3 architecture replacement for ICE trucks, but I'm thinking Ford might hold onto T3 longer than expected.

 

T1 was utilized was used for two generations only. First in earlier form on the P221 F-150 from 2003 to 2008, heavily revised in 2006 for the 2007 Expy and Navi, adding in December 2008 the P415 F150. Super Duty was on its own from 1998 to 2016.

 

T1 got phased out from Dec 2014 to Nov 2017, via T3 forming the P552 '15 F-150, P558 '17 SD, and '18 U55x Expy/Navi.

 

Second generation of T3 is already here since Dec 2020, on P702 F-150 and upcoming U55x MCA & P708 SD, so I'm curious what replaces it for ICE?

 

Straight move to TE1 and uncharacteristically recycle T3 for the 3rd time on ICE offerings? Or New T4/T5 for ICE P736 and 2029 SD?

 

As for thr 8th generation Mustang, it's being studied, but pre-planning aspect and not an official program yet. Advanced Engineering and Design maybe.

This right here is pretty spot on. 
 

From what I’m hearing through the grapevine, there are a number of key vehicle lines that will have redesigned ICE and BEV versions that will live side by side with each other for many years to come.

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1 hour ago, JX1 said:

 

It was definitely before my time, considering I was born towards the end of its life, but I'll say this.

 

In 1978, the Fox Body Mustang, was right car for the right time. It was a very attractive new automobile in 1978 USA and a breath of fresh air. It felt more 1980s than 1970s, compared to many things on the road I imagine.

 

ford_mustang_coupe_6.thumb.jpeg.5aa7c6c39e078a0d8d57eebe3edc6270.jpegford_mustang_336.thumb.jpeg.892c24d690b40d82e95285c641992743.jpegford_mustang_4763.thumb.jpeg.2a771c7a44e7d3022cc15bfd5185fdf1.jpeg

 

And prior to that achievement at Ford, I don't see how this could have ever been a "newer" feeling car in 1973 compared to the car below it. Felt so regressive, but the fuel crisis dictated the thinking of everyone.

ford_mustang_ii_ghia_coupe_39.thumb.jpeg.2f84d34ba1bd5fee99aa54b997fcad7d.jpegford_mustang_ii_ghia_coupe_3.jpeg.c7a47a8f87532f81cea488eb5fa415cb.jpegford_mustang_convertible_5.jpg.17171cbecd868d62917d3e1014fec868.jpgford_mustang_convertible_1.jpg.774edcbb069f5c35f0cab7fb1cbb65fa.jpg

 

No disrespect here, but funny thing is the guy who designed the 1978 Bronco, also did the 1974 Mustang...?

The Fox Mustang was the first Mustang to not have any “Mustang” styling cues at all, but the 80’s were coming and everyone just wanted “new” at the time thinking back. It was the right car for the right time, and it was exciting when it came out. The Turbo option was a big thing at the time, seemed so “80’s” and futuristic! When they revitalized the 5.0 for 1982, it wasn’t something we saw coming, having expected less and less each year, performance had hit an all time low in everything (except for some Euro Turbo cars) From then on the Mustang was back and Fox legend began. 
 

Mustang II had all the cues but rolled up into a bit of a pudgy thing lol 

 

In my option, the current Mustang is the most beautiful and perfect one yet, will be hard to top it I say! (Owning a 2019 Bullitt I guess makes me biased lol)
 

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We had a Mustang II Ghia.  It was a nice car at the time, I know many mustang purists do not accept this as a mustang.  
comfortable car , and the right car at the time for people looking for style inside and out/ semi luxury for this kind of car.  
to bad it was a lemon / money pit from almost day one.  I had more enjoyment playing the stock market and losing money at the time. 

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