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Dealer ADM Consequence So Far


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14 hours ago, j2sys said:

 

Probably not the best thread for this, but it relates to a dealer charging a doc fee in excess of the amount allowed under A-Plan.  Mods will be sure to let me know if it belongs elsewhere.  Not sure how to best contact the program admins to get their input.

 

TL/DR: dealer in SE MI would not budge from a $230 doc fee on an A-Plan sale on a retail order, to a local customer, insisting that Ford says it's okay and would've punished them by now if they weren't allowed to.  Also, finance "managers" and "directors" get very agitated when you call them out on breaking the rules, with documentation to back it up.  When asked to prove their claims, they point to the rules that show they're in the wrong, still won't budge.

 

Back in January, I put in an order for an Escape.  The dealer I went with was one of the last independents near me in SE MI.  They agreed to accept A-Plan on the deal, all seemed well.  Pricing, incentives, doc fees, etc. were all locked in as part of the process, or so one would think.

 

In Feb, I returned to the same dealer to buy another vehicle, this time off the lot on A-Plan.  Didn't catch it at the time, but they actually snuck in a $100 doc fee against the program rules capping it at $75.  At that point, I figured I'd bring it up when the Escape came in and at least make sure they got it right the second time, if not refund the overcharge.

 

While waiting for the Escape to eventually get scheduled and then delayed over 10 times, the owner sold out to one of the larger chains.  At this point I didn't know what to expect, whether they'd honor A-Plan still or even just give the order away.  Figured that something funny would happen, as can be expected any time a smaller business gets bought out.

 

Well, fast forward to this weekend.  My Escape is in, and the same salesman and I make arrangements for me to come pick it up.  The two main things they wouldn't back down from were $100 wheel locks that I didn't authorize them to put on the vehicle, and a $230 doc fee.

 

When I saw that, I immediately called it out as being against AZ-Plan program rules.  I pulled up the terms and pointed this out.  Someone let me know if I'm mistaken, but I see 3 options for doc fees under AZ-Plan.  None of this reads as optional or negotiable to me.

  • "Dealers will be permitted to assess up to $75 in documentary fees on each delivery to an eligible purchaser under the terms of the Plan, unless otherwise provided by state or local laws or regulation.  Each dealer is responsible for complying with applicable laws or regulations."
    • Sounds pretty self-explanatory.  It's a cap on doc fees at $75
  • A) "Unless otherwise provided by state or local laws or regulation: In states where dealers are not permitted to charge as much as $75 for doc fees, dealers would be capped at the lesser amount as provided by the state."
    • If state law caps doc fees below $75, follow that state cap
  • B) "In states that permitted more than $75, dealers would be permitted to charge the Plan customer $75."
    • State law allows doc fees $75+: AZ-Plan customer is charged no more than $75
  • C) "In states that permitted more than $75 and also required that all customers be charged the same amount, dealers may charge the Plan customer $75 and indicate any additional fees have been paid by Ford Motor Company as part of the AXZD-Plan Program dealer reimbursement on the buyer's order."
    • State law allows doc fees >$75 and requires all customers be charged the same amount: AZ-Plan customer is charged no more than $75.  The remainder is reimbursed by Ford, and the dealer should note this on the documentation.

Per the State of Michigan, dealers are currently allowed under state law/regulation to charge a 5% doc fee with a cap of $230.  No mention of a requirement that all customers be charged the same amount.  In fact, that falls apart because a dealer selling a car under $4600 could not charge that full amount, while they could charge it on another car $4600 or more.

 

Source for state cap: https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/difs/Bulletins/2021/Bulletin_2021-04-CF.pdf?rev=1cbbae48e758443f82734682c1f40e65

 

Finance guy goes to get "finance manager" who spins himself around in circles trying to tell me why they're allowed to charge $230.  Insisting that it's a "state thing".  Insists that his Ford rep says they're allowed to charge Plan customers the state max (or whatever they darn well please) so long as they charge everyone the same amount.  Note that the way the Plan Rules are worded, the dealer can only charge the customer $75, even if the state requires the dealer be paid more.  Despite my pointing out the appropriate section of the rules, even the finance manager couldn't admit that they were wrong

 

"Finance director" eventually comes in as I keep pushing them for documentation to back up their claims, and keeps pointing at the documentation that does not say what they claim it does.  They printed out a copy of the plan rules that indicate they're wrong (basically ignoring what it says), and a sheet from the state showing what they're allowed to charge.  Both of them have been getting very visibly, audibly agitated while claiming that it's just my "interpretation" that the rules put in a $75 cap.  Low level finance guy then tries to make matters worse when I call them out by saying the "director" is not raising his voice, guess he's hard of hearing..

 

At least one of the "managers" admitted that they'd been charging AZ-Plan customers in excess of the $75 doc fee cap since they were under independent ownership ($100 then vs. $230 now).  Complained that they'd been over this many times with other customers calling them out on this, but still insisting they were in the clear.  Claiming that Ford would've audited them and caught it, so since they've been getting away with it for years, it must be allowed.  They also kept pointing to section C, yet they couldn't point out the relevant MI state law (because it doesn't exist).

 

I particularly enjoyed when the angry man threw in my face that they were selling a retail order on A-Plan, when they had to do little more work than push a little paperwork.  For a >$2k commission and $75 doc fee.

 

In the end, my options were to:

 

Wait until Monday, contact Ford, get confirmation from them.  In other words, give the dealer an excuse to cancel the sale and sell it to someone with ADM (it's a hybrid after all).  So I'd lose the rest of the deal that they were still honoring.

 

Just give it up outright.  Again, that would mean missing out on $2,800 between incentive protection and retail order certificate, another >$2k in price protection, and 0%/36, 0.9%/48, 1.9%/60.  Incentives and rates are getting worse, prices are going up.

 

Give in and overpay, then look to get Ford to enforce the rules after the fact.

 

The only real option at that point was the last one.  This is why people despise dealers.  They will lie to your face.  They will tell you that words don't mean what you think they mean.  The only way to get out of being overcharged would be to, out of principal, pay another dealer even more, probably for a lesser vehicle.

 

Apologize that it's a bit longwinded.

 

Hi j2sys. Sorry you had issues, but some Dealers are simply not completely honest. So several points: First...There was a Plan change made some time ago, and current AXZD-Plan rules now allow a Documentation Fee of up to $100.

 

Next...The rules are perfectly clear. The maximum allowable Documentation Fee is (now) $100. Even in states that have some sort of equal treatment laws. In those states, the Dealer states on the paperwork that Ford will be paying the difference between the $100 and whatever they charge other customers.

 

As it clearly states...""In states that permitted more than $75 (now $100) and also required that all customers be charged the same amount, dealers may charge the Plan customer $75 (now$100) and indicate any additional fees have been paid by Ford Motor Company as part of the AXZD-Plan Program dealer reimbursement on the buyer's order."

It is clear as day. Not up to individual interpretation.

 

As far as the "Ford would've audited them and caught it, so since they've been getting away with it for years, it must be allowed." argument? Well, that makes as much sense as stating "I guess if someone keeps shoplifting for all these years and no one has ever caught them...It must be legal".

 

Ford only audits a very small percentage of AXZD-Plan sales. Therefore, the customer is primarily responsible for knowing the Plan rules, holding the Dealer to the rules, and reporting them when they don't. So I would recommend you contact Ford Customer Relations, provide them copies of corroborating paperwork, and file a formal report. And according to how important that ~$130 is to you, I would not let it go until you receive a refund. If it were me, I would pursue it aggressively, if only for the principle.

 

In my experience of helping ~40 family and friends with Plan purchases over the years, plus my own vehicle purchases, I only met two Salespeople, at two different Dealerships, who were completely honest about charging the correct "Documentation Fee". And that even goes back to when Ford capped the Documentation Fee at $0. As crazy as it sounds, every single other Salesperson attempted to overcharge for Documentation Fees. And it often took some lengthy debate before the Salespeople and/or Sales Managers would *magically* discover that yes, they were "mistaken", and finally admit/relent to charge the correct Doc Fee. ?

 

Inform Ford about this Dealership breaking the rules, and fight for a refund, if it matters to you.

 

Let us know how you make out and good luck.

Edited by bbf2530
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1 hour ago, bbf2530 said:

 

Hi j2sys. Sorry you had issues, but some Dealers are simply not completely honest. So several points: First...There was a Plan change made some time ago, and current AXZD-Plan rules now allow a Documentation Fee of up to $100.

 

Next...The rules are perfectly clear. The maximum allowable Documentation Fee is (now) $100. Even in states that have some sort of equal treatment laws. In those states, the Dealer states on the paperwork that Ford will be paying the difference between the $100 and whatever they charge other customers.

 

As it clearly states...""In states that permitted more than $75 and also required that all customers be charged the same amount, dealers may charge the Plan customer $75 and indicate any additional fees have been paid by Ford Motor Company as part of the AXZD-Plan Program dealer reimbursement on the buyer's order."

It is clear as day. Not up to individual interpretation.

 

As far as the "Ford would've audited them and caught it, so since they've been getting away with it for years, it must be allowed." argument? Well, that makes as much sense as stating "I guess if someone keeps shoplifting for all these years and no one has ever caught them...It must be legal".

 

Ford only audits a very small percentage of AXZD-Plan sales. Therefore, the customer is primarily responsible for knowing the Plan rules, holding the Dealer to the rules, and reporting them when they don't. So I would recommend you contact Ford Customer Relations, provide them copies of corroborating paperwork, and file a formal report. And according to how important that ~$130 is to you, I would not let it go until you receive a refund. If it were me, I would pursue it aggressively, if only for the principle.

 

In my experience of helping ~40 family and friends with Plan purchases over the years, I only met one Salesperson, at one Dealership, who was completely honest about charging the correct "Documentation Fee". And that was back when Ford capped the Documentation Fee at $0. And it often took some lengthy debate before the Salesperson and Sales Manager would finally admit/relent and/or magically discover that yes, I was correct. ?

 

Inform Ford about this Dealership breaking the rules, and fight for a refund, if it matters to you.

 

Let us know how you make out and good luck.

 

Agreed, just wanted someone to sanity check me.  So, thanks for the response.  Especially after they kept pointing at the same program rules I did but not reading through it word for word with me.  Just talking over me in an increasingly agitated tone for at least a half hour straight when I tried to read it to them, after close no less.

 

I would've gotten a laugh out of the excuse that they've gotten away with it for years, if the whole thing wasn't so needlessly stressful.  Absence of enforcement does not equate absence of guilt.

 

The latest documentation I've seen shows that AZ is capped at $75 and X is $100, that's why my quotes from the rules indicates $75.  Do you have a source that shows an increase for AZ?  I'm sure it's possible, just want to clear that up.  :)

 

AZ rules updated 10/13/2018: https://www.axz.ford.com/myplanweb/jsp/howitworks/myplan_az_rules.htm

 

X rules updated 10/13/2018: https://www.axz.ford.com/myplanweb/jsp/howitworks/myplan_x_rules.htm

 

Weird thing is that now I do, as you say, have to fight this out of principle.  Now the dealer risks losing future program eligibility and commission on any noncompliant sales found, which vastly outweighs honoring the $75 to keep me quiet.  Never mind that's $75 that has no valid justification; I've resigned myself that they're allowed to do it and expect to see it.  They also lost future sales and referrals from me. Hope that's worth an ill-gotten $130-155 to them...

 

I'll follow up starting with the contact info on the MyPlan site and go from there, but wish I had a better (direct) contact - last time I went that route with a different dealer, I got no response.  Will be sure to share any progress I make.

Edited by j2sys
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35 minutes ago, j2sys said:

 

Agreed, just wanted someone to sanity check me.  So, thanks for the response.  Especially after they kept pointing at the same program rules I did but not reading through it word for word with me.  Just talking over me in an increasingly agitated tone for at least a half hour straight when I tried to read it to them, after close no less.

 

I would've gotten a laugh out of the excuse that they've gotten away with it for years, if the whole thing wasn't so needlessly stressful.  Absence of enforcement does not equate absence of guilt.

 

The latest documentation I've seen shows that AZ is capped at $75 and X is $100, that's why my quotes from the rules indicates $75.  Do you have a source that shows an increase for AZ?  I'm sure it's possible, just want to clear that up.  :)

 

AZ rules updated 10/13/2018: https://www.axz.ford.com/myplanweb/jsp/howitworks/myplan_az_rules.htm

 

X rules updated 10/13/2018: https://www.axz.ford.com/myplanweb/jsp/howitworks/myplan_x_rules.htm

 

Weird thing is that now I do, as you say, have to fight this out of principal.  Now the dealer risks losing future program eligibility and commission on any noncompliant sales found, which vastly outweighs honoring the $75 to keep me quiet.  Never mind that's $75 that has no valid justification; I've resigned myself that they're allowed to do it and expect to see it.  They also lost future sales and referrals from me. Hope that's worth an ill-gotten $130-155 to them...

 

I'll follow up starting with the contact info on the MyPlan site and go from there, but wish I had a better (direct) contact - last time I went that route with a different dealer, I got no response.  Will be sure to share any progress I make.

 

Hi j2sys. No, you are not crazy. Well, at least not concerning this subject. ?

And I agree. I would fight it for the principle. And the money...?

 

I could not find a publicly viewable link to the newer AZ-Plan rules, only the newer X-Plan rules (as of 3/1/22): https://www.fordpartner.com/partnerweb/jsp/howitworks/fordpartner_rules.htm#faq

 

Although I took a quick look for a link, I will also state that while I am relatively sure that the Documentation Fee cap was raised to $100 on all plans (AXZD), it is possible I am mistaken on the AZD and perhaps it is still $75? It just goes against my latest information. If I find a link to the updated AXZD-Plan rules, I will post back.

 

The Ford AZ-Plan number to call is 1-800-348-7709. Ford Customer Relations is 1-800-392-3673.

 

Definitely keep us updated and good luck.

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My one time buying on x-plan, the dealer charged me the normal doc fee allowed in Kansas, then sent me a check for the difference between it and the plan allowance about 2 weeks later.  They told me that was their procedure, so that the paperwork the state gets shows the same fee.

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  • 1 month later...
1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

Still seeing new Broncos with a $20,000 ADM charge on them.

 

Simple reflection of available stock inventory and dealers trying to maximize profits as part of the supply vs. demand equation. My own dealership has a minimum $5,000 ADM on every vehicle with higher ADM's on selected vehicle lines. I understand but do not agree with such practices with the exception of limited production vehicles such as Shelby's and Raptors. The widespread practice in today's marketplace is just cementing customers long term negative opinions of dealerships in general. It will continue to affect customer perception and opinions long term with the most damage being impacted on those dealerships that also practice unprofessional, unethical and blatantly deceptive business practices. 

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