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Fallacy of Electrics


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32 minutes ago, BoomerSooner said:

Interestingly enough, my old neighborhood in Edmond, OK has found Teslas and other e-vehicles to be very appealing.  During high energy usage months, I am now advised that the municipal electric grid is having trouble supplying sufficient power to additionally charge a bunch of electric cars.  

theres your other issue...I would say a majority, if not theentire countries grid isnt adequate right now during extreme cold or heat...we here ( so cal ) frequently experience rolling blackouts during hot week days...and that's NOW...imagine when everyone plugs in their BEV or plug ins as well...on top of a/c draws and extreme cold...

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53 minutes ago, Deanh said:

I think GM is working with someone regarding sub 30k BEVs...but once again...this whole electrification narrative should be taken with a grain of salt...I don't believe anything Ive read or been preached by our wonderful decision makers as anything but smoke and mirrors...I mean they are the same morons that deem Shipping in foreign oil is better for everyone than us pumping out own and piping it...I sincerely wonder how this whole Ukraine situation and the EUs stance would be if the supply of oil and N Gas was coming primarily from the US ( which we are quite capable of ) .....thank god for Gin and Tonics is all I can say...

 

The irony is that US domestic oil produces are sitting on so many new oil producing reserves whit no intention of advancing production, they know that keeping production tight is good for them selling every barrell produced, domestic oil producers actually prefer a small amount of imported oil for those exact reasons.

 

America is not serious about electrification, where you leave decisions to consumers, they won’t come on board unless there’s a huge payoff for them and currently, it’s all uphill going for buyers and many rightly ask what the heck is in it for me besides more mucking around and high up front costs. Motor companies talk about cost of building EVs now approaching ICEs but most have a premium price, again there’s little or no incentive to switch.

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4 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

I used to own Idaho Power that got most of its generation from hydro. Some years when they got lots of snowpack they really did well. Other years with less snowpack cratered their profits. The 10 year Western Drought is probably not helping much. 

 

Our BC Hydro has similar issues, but further north we don't have the same extent of drought.

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3 hours ago, Deanh said:

theres your other issue...I would say a majority, if not theentire countries grid isnt adequate right now during extreme cold or heat...we here ( so cal ) frequently experience rolling blackouts during hot week days...and that's NOW...imagine when everyone plugs in their BEV or plug ins as well...on top of a/c draws and extreme cold...

 

That's where EV's like the F150 Lightning can actually help that problem by feeding back into the grid during high demand times and re-charge during lower demand times.

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1 hour ago, NLPRacing said:

 

That's where EV's like the F150 Lightning can actually help that problem by feeding back into the grid during high demand times and re-charge during lower demand times.

In a perfect world that would be a super logical solution, a great way of utilities suddenly getting massive battery storage infrastructure with almost zero cost, a bit informal in application but worth perusing…….

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The concept sounds great but I don’t think these vehicles will be sitting plugged in and charged enough to make a difference at peak usage which is usually mid to late afternoon.  If you’re not driving it then sure - discharge in the afternoon, charge it back overnight.  I’m just not sure how many owners match that use case.

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15 hours ago, NLPRacing said:

 

That's where EV's like the F150 Lightning can actually help that problem by feeding back into the grid during high demand times and re-charge during lower demand times.

wouldn't that only happen if the Lightning itself was at full charge?....in which case the owner has already been billed to "fill up" then the battery feeds back and requires recharging to obtain topping off...and the owner gets double dipped....I don't think because you own a Lightning you are or should be obligated to subsidize every one elses usage...

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59 minutes ago, Deanh said:

wouldn't that only happen if the Lightning itself was at full charge?....in which case the owner has already been billed to "fill up" then the battery feeds back and requires recharging to obtain topping off...and the owner gets double dipped....I don't think because you own a Lightning you are or should be obligated to subsidize every one elses usage...


This happens today with solar.  If you’re feeding back to the grid the meter runs backwards so you don’t pay twice.  Or if you’re only using it to power your house then the meter stops.

 

But I still question whether enough charged vehicles would be plugged in and available at peak usage which is late afternoon.

 

Maybe the utility should just install batteries in each home and let the home use those at peak times or back feed the grid if that home isn’t using them. They would also provide temporary power in an outage.

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49 minutes ago, akirby said:


This happens today with solar.  If you’re feeding back to the grid the meter runs backwards so you don’t pay twice.  Or if you’re only using it to power your house then the meter stops.

 

But I still question whether enough charged vehicles would be plugged in and available at peak usage which is late afternoon.

 

Maybe the utility should just install batteries in each home and let the home use those at peak times or back feed the grid if that home isn’t using them. They would also provide temporary power in an outage.

understand the solar panels going back into the grid...but if Id spent money to charge a battery, only to have it depleted by others when it was deemed necessary...and then have to re charge it all the time rather than just utilizing it when I needed it...Id become rather annoyed I think...if Ive charged everything I need and any surplus goes back to the grid, I have no issue...operative word I guess is surplus. We have solar because of the pool...but no battery backup...not so sure we we are if that's necessary. I actually inquired the other day about potentially installing additional panels...I was literally told I have to apply and its at the disgression of my carrier!...huh? its like they literally do NOT want me producing ( in their minds ) too much..... 

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I have a nat-gas whole house generator, and know when the utility power goes down, my transfer panel disconnects from the grid, to avoid killing linemen. Researching solar a bit, it looks like they incorporate a similar grid-disconnect, for the same reason.

 

https://www.vivintsolar.com/learning-center/how-solar-power-feeds-grid

 

If something happens to the grid, such as it shuts down or varies from the standard specifications, your solar energy system will also shut down unless you have a solar power battery backup for your system that has been configured for these types of situations. The main reason your system will shut off in response to a grid shut down is to prevent your system from sending power into the grid while any electrical workers are operating on it. We do everything we can to make sure our solar energy systems are safe for everyone involved, so they can enjoy clean power without and added concerns. Once the grid power back on, your system should follow suit.

 

So, they may or may not be willing to using a BEV to feed the grid,,,,

 

HRG

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1 hour ago, HotRunrGuy said:

I have a nat-gas whole house generator, and know when the utility power goes down, my transfer panel disconnects from the grid, to avoid killing linemen. Researching solar a bit, it looks like they incorporate a similar grid-disconnect, for the same reason.

 

https://www.vivintsolar.com/learning-center/how-solar-power-feeds-grid

 

If something happens to the grid, such as it shuts down or varies from the standard specifications, your solar energy system will also shut down unless you have a solar power battery backup for your system that has been configured for these types of situations. The main reason your system will shut off in response to a grid shut down is to prevent your system from sending power into the grid while any electrical workers are operating on it. We do everything we can to make sure our solar energy systems are safe for everyone involved, so they can enjoy clean power without and added concerns. Once the grid power back on, your system should follow suit.

 

So, they may or may not be willing to using a BEV to feed the grid,,,,

 

HRG


But that’s only if the grid itself is down.  This would be backfeeding the grid only when the grid is up.

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1 hour ago, HotRunrGuy said:

I have a nat-gas whole house generator, and know when the utility power goes down, my transfer panel disconnects from the grid, to avoid killing linemen. Researching solar a bit, it looks like they incorporate a similar grid-disconnect, for the same reason.

 

https://www.vivintsolar.com/learning-center/how-solar-power-feeds-grid

 

If something happens to the grid, such as it shuts down or varies from the standard specifications, your solar energy system will also shut down unless you have a solar power battery backup for your system that has been configured for these types of situations. The main reason your system will shut off in response to a grid shut down is to prevent your system from sending power into the grid while any electrical workers are operating on it. We do everything we can to make sure our solar energy systems are safe for everyone involved, so they can enjoy clean power without and added concerns. Once the grid power back on, your system should follow suit.

 

So, they may or may not be willing to using a BEV to feed the grid,,,,

 

HRG

As long as they educate people on the importance of flipping the main breaker off it shouldn't be a problem 

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There is a difference between a grid going down (failure) and a grid in a high peak usage (brown out).  If the transfer switch senses a loss of voltage from the main grid, it will disconnect from the main and utilize only the home source.  If there is still voltage from the grid, excess power from the home source is sent back into the grid.  Most utilities, either by law or just good customer service, have net metering so that if you generate excess power, you are credited that.  So if you use 1000 kWh for the month, but generate 800, you only pay the utility for 200.  They way it was explained at our electric coop meeting was that BEV's charging at night, during off peak hours, help to level load the system, making it more efficient.  Brownouts happen because peak demand out paces generation capacity.  It is not economical to build capacity to meet the peak demand when that demand is probably only 1% of the usage over a year.  If there is mass adoption of EV's, it makes it more economical to build in extra capacity, as the base load during day and night gets closer together and that 1% peak load case becomes less of an increase from the base load.  For example if the average daily usage is 1 MW per hour with a base night load of 0.5 and day load of 1.5, but on say 3 days a year during peak summer that usage gets to 2.5, if I have a system that is designed to handle 1.5 with 20% margin, I am still 40% short of handling that peak load.  However if my base load increases to 1 at night and 2 during the day, I would run a system that could handle a peak of 2.5, and with emergency generation from backup sources could handle something higher, making brownouts less likely.

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21 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

As long as they educate people on the importance of flipping the main breaker off it shouldn't be a problem 

 

National Electrical code requires either a lockout or an automatic transfer switch for any installation that can feed power into the grid.  The ATS is the preferred method, but if you are installing a small generator, they can install a lockout that forces the main breaker to be open in order to close the generator breaker.

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1 hour ago, Flying68 said:

 

National Electrical code requires either a lockout or an automatic transfer switch for any installation that can feed power into the grid.  The ATS is the preferred method, but if you are installing a small generator, they can install a lockout that forces the main breaker to be open in order to close the generator breaker.


Thats handy knowledge, thank you. I didn't know that. 

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23 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Thats handy knowledge, thank you. I didn't know that. 


You must have some type of failsafe so that you can’t feed power back into the grid when it’s down.  Say a wire was cut in your street.  They shut it down to repair it.  If your generator or BEV was allowed to back feed then you just energized the lines they’re working on.

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20 hours ago, jpd80 said:

In a perfect world that would be a super logical solution, a great way of utilities suddenly getting massive battery storage infrastructure with almost zero cost, a bit informal in application but worth perusing…….

 

18 hours ago, akirby said:

The concept sounds great but I don’t think these vehicles will be sitting plugged in and charged enough to make a difference at peak usage which is usually mid to late afternoon.  If you’re not driving it then sure - discharge in the afternoon, charge it back overnight.  I’m just not sure how many owners match that use case.

 

6 hours ago, Deanh said:

wouldn't that only happen if the Lightning itself was at full charge?....in which case the owner has already been billed to "fill up" then the battery feeds back and requires recharging to obtain topping off...and the owner gets double dipped....I don't think because you own a Lightning you are or should be obligated to subsidize every one elses usage...

 

If you plug in every day when you get home from work, you could back feed what's left during peak when rates are higher and then re-charge off-peak when rates are lower. Not many people are discharging 100% of their EV battery daily.

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1 hour ago, NLPRacing said:

 

 

 

If you plug in every day when you get home from work, you could back feed what's left during peak when rates are higher and then re-charge off-peak when rates are lower. Not many people are discharging 100% of their EV battery daily.

That was the thinking, those that can connect to the grid and reduce peak hour electric costs and then recharge on off peak rates. There’s no guarantee to how many join at anytime and when they leave so a very informal/non-binding arrangement but still something that could help BEV owners reduce power bills….perhaps, maybe 

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6 hours ago, Deanh said:

understand the solar panels going back into the grid...but if Id spent money to charge a battery, only to have it depleted by others when it was deemed necessary...and then have to re charge it all the time rather than just utilizing it when I needed it...Id become rather annoyed I think...if Ive charged everything I need and any surplus goes back to the grid, I have no issue...operative word I guess is surplus. We have solar because of the pool...but no battery backup...not so sure we we are if that's necessary. I actually inquired the other day about potentially installing additional panels...I was literally told I have to apply and its at the disgression of my carrier!...huh? its like they literally do NOT want me producing ( in their minds ) too much..... 

 

I'd be annoyed if I needed a full battery and was charging, and I then come back to find my battery more empty than when I left it lol.

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4 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

I'd be annoyed if I needed a full battery and was charging, and I then come back to find my battery more empty than when I left it lol.

It’s like having a Tesla wall that can take you places. The way battery development is going, we’re going to see a lot more battery range in the near future

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24 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

It’s like having a Tesla wall that can take you places. The way battery development is going, we’re going to see a lot more battery range in the near future

I think the focus will be on cost reduction and weight reduction.  Sure, there will be some that go for the all out range title like Lucid, but the non premium brands will focus on value.

 

The plug your ev in to back feed the grid is still theory.  It will take some time to develop the infrastructure.  I suspect there will be some sort of parameters to allow users to limit when and how much power can be back fed.  Customers would need to opt into the program similar to the cutoff switches on ac units to limit usage during peak demand periods.

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On 4/12/2022 at 7:59 PM, jpd80 said:

In a perfect world that would be a super logical solution, a great way of utilities suddenly getting massive battery storage infrastructure with almost zero cost, a bit informal in application but worth perusing…….

 

Just read an article about future houses to be built in next 5 to 10 years. All show a Lightning parked in driveway plugged into outlet supplying energy to the house. You bet Ford is pushing and will be pushing this concept. 

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24 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Just read an article about future houses to be built in next 5 to 10 years. All show a Lightning parked in driveway plugged into outlet supplying energy to the house. You bet Ford is pushing and will be pushing this concept. 

 

If you are talking about the article on FA, it will be interesting to see if Pulte actually starts building houses with garages deep enough to fit a Lightning,,,,,,

 

HRG

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2 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

If you are talking about the article on FA, it will be interesting to see if Pulte actually starts building houses with garages deep enough to fit a Lightning,,,,,,

 

HRG


My garage fits my F150 with about 2 inches to spare front and rear.  Mine was built 4 years ago.  Of course it depends on the plan.

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On 4/12/2022 at 4:00 PM, FordBuyer said:

 

Ford struck a deal with Argentina

 

The deal is actually with an Australian firm, Lake Resources, in Argentina:  

Quote

Australian lithium extraction firm, Lake Resources, has signed a non-binding agreement with Ford for the annual supply of around 25,000 tonnes lithium from the firm’s Kachi Project in Argentina.

The company’s flagship Kachi Project involves direct extraction technology for the development of sustainable, high-purity lithium and three other lithium brine projects in Argentina. The projects are in a prime location within the Lithium Triangle, where 40% of the world’s lithium is produced.  

 

https://www.automotivelogistics.media/battery-supply-chain/ford-signs-deal-for-clean-lithium-supply-from-lake-resources/42927.article#:~:text=Australian lithium extraction firm%2C Lake,vice president of EV Industrialisation.

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