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Raptor R Confirmed with 5.2L V8


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2 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

Guys the blower is the critical item. It relies on a huge amount of close tolerance “swept area”. Unless they put helicopter filters in this thing it’s going to be a boondoggle. 
 

 

……and for what? To eek out slightly better acceleration numbers than a Dodge? What happens when Dodge responds in kind? You think they can’t twist out 800hp?

 

 

See Mopar has an advantage here. That advantage is bore centers. The 5.2 is stretched to the absolute limit because there simply isn’t enough meat to hold a head gasket between the cylinders. 
 

Ford made the wrong decision from an engineering standpoint in my opinion. Now maybe they’re just finding a place to amortize the cost of the Predator engine. I get that but it ain’t gonna work if you’re spotting the competition a full liter of displacement due to bore restrictions. 
 

So blower sensitivity to dirt problems aside figure in massive costly measures to make that thing live, you’re still inherently causing yourself a problem. 
 

I the case of the Dodge their hemi is actually available in a larger bore 6.4 liter N/A version. When they went to the Hellcat stuff they took the bore out to provide more meat between the cylinders to facilitate better head gasket retention. 
 

As I said before Ford built in their own handicap and at 3.6” bore size the Predator is at the max limit for any kind of reliability. 
 

This would’ve been a better truck and far superior to Dodge if an N/A engine was selected and coupled to a hybrid/10 speed drive system. 
 

No one would have been able to touch Ford for years. Instead like I said you’ll get good magazine numbers and mall crawler status. 

People threw aftermarket superchargers on gen 1 raptors left and right. For the most part, there weren't any issues. Durability won't be a problem here, I can assure you of that. 

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Your theoretical reliability advantage means far less than 760 hp to most buyers.  Using the 5.2L is the most cost effective solution and it provides competitive power.  They’ll sell every one they can make at a premium and they wo t necessarily be mall crawlers.

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2 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

Guys the blower is the critical item. It relies on a huge amount of close tolerance “swept area”. Unless they put helicopter filters in this thing it’s going to be a boondoggle. 
 

 

……and for what? To eek out slightly better acceleration numbers than a Dodge? What happens when Dodge responds in kind? You think they can’t twist out 800hp?

 

 

See Mopar has an advantage here. That advantage is bore centers. The 5.2 is stretched to the absolute limit because there simply isn’t enough meat to hold a head gasket between the cylinders. 
 

Ford made the wrong decision from an engineering standpoint in my opinion. Now maybe they’re just finding a place to amortize the cost of the Predator engine. I get that but it ain’t gonna work if you’re spotting the competition a full liter of displacement due to bore restrictions. 
 

So blower sensitivity to dirt problems aside figure in massive costly measures to make that thing live, you’re still inherently causing yourself a problem. 
 

I the case of the Dodge their hemi is actually available in a larger bore 6.4 liter N/A version. When they went to the Hellcat stuff they took the bore out to provide more meat between the cylinders to facilitate better head gasket retention. 
 

As I said before Ford built in their own handicap and at 3.6” bore size the Predator is at the max limit for any kind of reliability. 
 

This would’ve been a better truck and far superior to Dodge if an N/A engine was selected and coupled to a hybrid/10 speed drive system. 
 

No one would have been able to touch Ford for years. Instead like I said you’ll get good magazine numbers and mall crawler status. 

 

Isn't the TRX engine blown as well?  Why is it's blower superior to the Raptor R's?

 

And, don't you think Ford has thought through this just a tad?  I mean, it's not like this is their first truck, nor their first desert runner, nor their first forced induction engine.

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1 hour ago, fordmantpw said:

 

Isn't the TRX engine blown as well?  Why is it's blower superior to the Raptor R's?

 

And, don't you think Ford has thought through this just a tad?  I mean, it's not like this is their first truck, nor their first desert runner, nor their first forced induction engine.


He wants a NA big block V8 so he’s just trying to rationalize it, not realizing he’s in a very tiny minority of potential buyers.

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23 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

Guys the blower is the critical item. It relies on a huge amount of close tolerance “swept area”. Unless they put helicopter filters in this thing it’s going to be a boondoggle.

……and for what? To eek out slightly better acceleration numbers than a Dodge? What happens when Dodge responds in kind? You think they can’t twist out 800hp?

 

 

See Mopar has an advantage here. That advantage is bore centers. The 5.2 is stretched to the absolute limit because there simply isn’t enough meat to hold a head gasket between the cylinders. 
 

Ford made the wrong decision from an engineering standpoint in my opinion. Now maybe they’re just finding a place to amortize the cost of the Predator engine. I get that but it ain’t gonna work if you’re spotting the competition a full liter of displacement due to bore restrictions. 
 

So blower sensitivity to dirt problems aside figure in massive costly measures to make that thing live, you’re still inherently causing yourself a problem. 
 

I the case of the Dodge their hemi is actually available in a larger bore 6.4 liter N/A version. When they went to the Hellcat stuff they took the bore out to provide more meat between the cylinders to facilitate better head gasket retention. 
 

As I said before Ford built in their own handicap and at 3.6” bore size the Predator is at the max limit for any kind of reliability. 
 

This would’ve been a better truck and far superior to Dodge if an N/A engine was selected and coupled to a hybrid/10 speed drive system. 
 

No one would have been able to touch Ford for years. Instead like I said you’ll get good magazine numbers and mall crawler status. 

 

Huh?

 

Predator is actually 3.7" bore diameters.    

 

The Mopar has demonstrated no such advantages in the aftermarket, FYI.  

I've seen Coyote blocks taken to MUCH higher power levels than I have stock Gen 3 Hemi blocks.  

 

There's a reason why there is aftermarket demand for stronger (cast) Gen 3 Hemi blocks while the only aftermarket Coyote blocks are full billet blocks ready for 3000-4000 HP.   

That because the Hemi casting is structurally tapped out in the 1300 rwhp range and the Coyote isn't.  

 

What is Dodge going to respond with?   

The Redeye has a 2.7 liter Twin Screw blower making 15 psi and makes 797. 

The Predator with a 2.6 @ 11 psi makes 760.   

The Predator is a better performance platform than the Hellcat IMO... and the Raptor is lighter.  

Edited by ESP08
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5 hours ago, fordmantpw said:

 

Isn't the TRX engine blown as well?  Why is it's blower superior to the Raptor R's?

 

And, don't you think Ford has thought through this just a tad?  I mean, it's not like this is their first truck, nor their first desert runner, nor their first forced induction engine.

 

Yeah, the Hellcats use Twin Screw blowers which have ~4 thousandths rotor to case clearance.  

It's not a problem with proper air filtration.  

 

The Trinity and Predator both use TVS blowers which generally have superior durability (and service life) characteristics to Twin Screws because both rotors spin the same speed.  

The Twin Screw has one rotor that spins much faster than the other which reduces maximum rotor speed capabilities.  

 

The TVS can spin 24,000 rpm

Twin Screws 18,000, any more and rotor flex begins to cause some internal contact

 

Despite the 5.2's bore center constraints it more than holds it own with the blown 6.2 Hemis:

Hellcat 6.2 - 2.4L Twin Screw - 12 psi - 707 HP / 650 TQ

Hellcat Redeye 6.2 - 2.7L Twin Screw - 15 psi - 797 HP / 707 TQ

Predator 5.2 - 2.6 TVS - 12 psi - 760 HP / 625 TQ

 

I'd dare say it requires less work/mods/boost to make 900+ rwhp with the GT500 5.2 than it does with either version of the Hellcat 6.2.  

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Look the deal is done so my argument is moot I know but I still think you guys aren’t understanding me. 
 

Unless Ford has some other surprise then all they have done is essentially matched what Dodge did almost two years ago. 
 

Let’s look at it in a different way because Akirby thinks I want a big block. Let’s say Ford instead took an N/A 5.0 or 5.2 and “supercharged” it with an electric motor in the bell housing using parts they already have on the shelf. 

Sooo much more could be made of the driveline than the one that just answers Dodge….. barely
 

Such an off road package would destroy the competition for years to come. Instead well Ford filled a category possibly by phoning in the effort. 
 

Boys make no mistake now. I’m only saying this because for the first time in a long time I expect waaay more out of Ford. 
 

With the aluminum bodies and small turbocharged engines Ford trucks are at least one generation ahead of their rivals. Sucks they’re playing follow the leader on this. 

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31 minutes ago, Stray Kat said:

Look the deal is done so my argument is moot I know but I still think you guys aren’t understanding me. 
 

Unless Ford has some other surprise then all they have done is essentially matched what Dodge did almost two years ago. 
 

Let’s look at it in a different way because Akirby thinks I want a big block. Let’s say Ford instead took an N/A 5.0 or 5.2 and “supercharged” it with an electric motor in the bell housing using parts they already have on the shelf. 

Sooo much more could be made of the driveline than the one that just answers Dodge….. barely
 

Such an off road package would destroy the competition for years to come. Instead well Ford filled a category possibly by phoning in the effort. 
 

Boys make no mistake now. I’m only saying this because for the first time in a long time I expect waaay more out of Ford. 
 

With the aluminum bodies and small turbocharged engines Ford trucks are at least one generation ahead of their rivals. Sucks they’re playing follow the leader on this. 

 

None of us can say anything in regards to performance one way or the other for certain since the Raptor R isn't out yet and hasn't been tested. If I were betting man though, I would expect more power and far better performance on road, off road, desert running than the TRX.  It would be a major disappointment if it didn't. So it would not just match what the TRX did two years ago, it should greatly exceed all aspects of the TRX.  The TRX trump card has been been the engine/acceleration/sound, other than that the latest generation Raptor ALREADY is better in just about every way.  

 

In regards to wanting a more cutting edge advanced powertrain, that's a want and valid. I want them to put a Powerboost in everything (looking at the Expedition and Navigator). However, I realize that money and supplies are not infinite. Ford has to be wise on how they spend their resources. From the moment that the R was teased most felt like it would be the GT500 engine. Why? Because it's a great engine, it's already been engineered/tested, and would hit the metrics they are looking for. I am guessing that there was a a far lower cost for the supercharged 5.2 to be engineered to the R specs. Also adding a battery would probably mostly erase the weight advantage that the current Raptor has. My guess is the Raptor R will probably have a 500lbs advantage over the TRX.

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Well it took Ram10 years to match the original Raptor.  To suggest that they should have done more than 760 hp is just ridiculous.  It won’t sell more vehicles.  And where exactly would they be “destroying the competition” - on Internet forums or bench races?  I bet every head to head comparison favors the Raptor as a better overall package.  Not that it will matter to sales.

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21 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:

 

None of us can say anything in regards to performance one way or the other for certain since the Raptor R isn't out yet and hasn't been tested. If I were betting man though, I would expect more power and far better performance on road, off road, desert running than the TRX.  It would be a major disappointment if it didn't. So it would not just match what the TRX did two years ago, it should greatly exceed all aspects of the TRX.  The TRX trump card has been been the engine/acceleration/sound, other than that the latest generation Raptor ALREADY is better in just about every way.  

 

In regards to wanting a more cutting edge advanced powertrain, that's a want and valid. I want them to put a Powerboost in everything (looking at the Expedition and Navigator). However, I realize that money and supplies are not infinite. Ford has to be wise on how they spend their resources. From the moment that the R was teased most felt like it would be the GT500 engine. Why? Because it's a great engine, it's already been engineered/tested, and would hit the metrics they are looking for. I am guessing that there was a a far lower cost for the supercharged 5.2 to be engineered to the R specs. Also adding a battery would probably mostly erase the weight advantage that the current Raptor has. My guess is the Raptor R will probably have a 500lbs advantage over the TRX.

 

There is also a limit to how much power you can actually use without other compromises.

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1 hour ago, Stray Kat said:

Look the deal is done so my argument is moot I know but I still think you guys aren’t understanding me. 
 

Unless Ford has some other surprise then all they have done is essentially matched what Dodge did almost two years ago. 
 

Let’s look at it in a different way because Akirby thinks I want a big block. Let’s say Ford instead took an N/A 5.0 or 5.2 and “supercharged” it with an electric motor in the bell housing using parts they already have on the shelf. 

Sooo much more could be made of the driveline than the one that just answers Dodge….. barely
 

Such an off road package would destroy the competition for years to come. Instead well Ford filled a category possibly by phoning in the effort. 
 

Boys make no mistake now. I’m only saying this because for the first time in a long time I expect waaay more out of Ford. 
 

With the aluminum bodies and small turbocharged engines Ford trucks are at least one generation ahead of their rivals. Sucks they’re playing follow the leader on this. 

 

I see what you're saying, the main thing I took issue with was comparing the Gen 3 Hemi favorably to the Coyote when Coyote has just accomplished so much more in virtually all performance arenas. 

 

I would have preferred a high performance EcoBoost 5.0 to the Predator.   

In fact I was hoping the GT500 would get a twin-injected twin turbo 5.0 and was disappointed when they stuck with the blower.  

 

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7 hours ago, ESP08 said:

 

I see what you're saying, the main thing I took issue with was comparing the Gen 3 Hemi favorably to the Coyote when Coyote has just accomplished so much more in virtually all performance arenas. 

 

I would have preferred a high performance EcoBoost 5.0 to the Predator.   

In fact I was hoping the GT500 would get a twin-injected twin turbo 5.0 and was disappointed when they stuck with the blower.  

 

Pretty obvious that TT was dead from a packaging POV and S/C 5.2 V8 is already in production, so an obvious choice for Ford. A certain inevitability there…..

 

Our ex

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So the typical Coyote they say weighs about the same as a 3.5EB with all the extra plumbing. 
 

Mix in the 500-700 extra pounds for my electric hybrid version with the electric motor in the bell and the battery pack under the seat and you have a more favorable weight balance situation from a desert running standpoint. 
 

But hey who cares , right?

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On 5/27/2022 at 3:34 PM, jpd80 said:

Pretty obvious that TT was dead from a packaging POV and S/C 5.2 V8 is already in production, so an obvious choice for Ford. A certain inevitability there…..

 

Our ex

 

I wasn't arguing that Ford should have engineered a TT for Raptor, but rather I would have liked to have seen Predator be a 5.0 or 5.2 EcoBoost from the get go.  

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49 minutes ago, ESP08 said:

 

I wasn't arguing that Ford should have engineered a TT for Raptor, but rather I would have liked to have seen Predator be a 5.0 or 5.2 EcoBoost from the get go.  

Of course, scary to imagine what power an angry 5.0 EB would make let alone a TT 6.2 EB….

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On 5/26/2022 at 8:34 AM, Stray Kat said:

Guys the blower is the critical item. It relies on a huge amount of close tolerance “swept area”. Unless they put helicopter filters in this thing it’s going to be a boondoggle. 
 

 

……and for what? To eek out slightly better acceleration numbers than a Dodge? What happens when Dodge responds in kind? You think they can’t twist out 800hp?

 

 

See Mopar has an advantage here. That advantage is bore centers. The 5.2 is stretched to the absolute limit because there simply isn’t enough meat to hold a head gasket between the cylinders. 
 

Ford made the wrong decision from an engineering standpoint in my opinion. Now maybe they’re just finding a place to amortize the cost of the Predator engine. I get that but it ain’t gonna work if you’re spotting the competition a full liter of displacement due to bore restrictions. 
 

So blower sensitivity to dirt problems aside figure in massive costly measures to make that thing live, you’re still inherently causing yourself a problem. 
 

I the case of the Dodge their hemi is actually available in a larger bore 6.4 liter N/A version. When they went to the Hellcat stuff they took the bore out to provide more meat between the cylinders to facilitate better head gasket retention. 
 

As I said before Ford built in their own handicap and at 3.6” bore size the Predator is at the max limit for any kind of reliability. 
 

This would’ve been a better truck and far superior to Dodge if an N/A engine was selected and coupled to a hybrid/10 speed drive system. 
 

No one would have been able to touch Ford for years. Instead like I said you’ll get good magazine numbers and mall crawler status. 

 

Well considering the #1 aftermarket dealer who knows the gt350 and gt500 inside and out throws a blower on the 5.2 (granted gt350) and gets 800RWHP out of it with very little upgrades and reliable.

 

It can be done and done reliably.  Beyond that, it's Twin Turbo only  if you want more power.

 

https://www.fathouseperformance.com/performance-package/platform/2016-gt350/package/800r-supercharged

 

Ford could easily add more power if they wanted to the Predator and wouldn't have the vibrating/balancing issues the Voodoo has.

 

 

Edited by blwnsmoke
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So yesterday I paid $4.75 for a gallon of regular. Didn’t even pay attention to what premium was. Over $5.00 bucks I’m sure. 
 

If Ford was about to introduce a 21+ mpg Raptor hybrid like the one I described Ford would be taking another blue ribbon, but no they said “let’s just follow Dodge”. Dodge a company who can’t get rid of that thirsty hemi fast enough. Yeah let’s just copy that. 
 

ugh!

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2 hours ago, Stray Kat said:

If Ford was about to introduce a 21+ mpg Raptor hybrid like the one I described Ford would be taking another blue ribbon, but no they said “let’s just follow Dodge”. Dodge a company who can’t get rid of that thirsty hemi fast enough. Yeah let’s just copy that. 


Development costs for the engine is done already-low lying fruit for a very limited production model. 

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1 hour ago, Broncofan7 said:

 

Agreed. I forgot to add that the article has the sound of the Raptor R. Original post has been updated.

 

Yeah and you can clearly hear converter lockup.   Not a DCT 

Edited by ESP08
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1 hour ago, akirby said:

Sounds like it’s not happening but just curious why a DCT would not be good for off road?

Slipping clutches is not good for low speed rock crawling, torque converter is much more durable for that.  A standard manual with an actual clutch pedal is fine as you can control the amount of slip, but I think most DCT's have a hard time with slipping and in low traction environments from reviews and tests I have seen.  They are better than CVT's, but it isn't hard to be better than a CVT off road.

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