Grid monitor warns of U.S. blackouts in ‘sobering report’

[silvrsvt]

14 hours ago, akirby said:

Oh for Pete’s sake.  A VERY large portion of the population cannot charge at home.  Apartments, condos, older houses.  Everybody likes to ignore this but it’s reality.  Not a big deal today as most BEV owners today have home charging but in order to expand BEV ownership and market share this market has to be addressed and their only choice is public charging.

 

Utility companies are offering incentives or rebates for installation.

Some I found in my state:

Home EV Charging Incentives in New Jersey


Clearview Energy is offering free EV charging daily from 11 PM to 6 AM (Sunday – Saturday) and a $100 rebate for ChargePoint Home charger when you sign up for a CLEARCHARGE12EV Clearview Energy Plan. For more details call 1-800-654-8114.

 

JCP&L residential customers can get an incentive of up to $1,500 for the cost of customer make-ready work needed to install a qualified Level 2 EV charger and up to $5,500 for utility service upgrades, if needed.

 

PSE&G residential smart charging customers are eligible for up to $1,500 toward the behind the meter installation of a residential Level 2 charger, up to $5,000 of pole to meter utility service upgrades (if needed), and credit on charging during off-peak periods to help lower your bill.

 

The State of New Jersey will be launching an incentive program for light-duty EVs and at-home electric charging infrastructure. If you purchased an eligible vehicle from the effective date of the law, January 17, 2020, email EV.Programs@bpu.nj.gov with the subject line “Listserv - Charge Up NJ” and you will receive an update when the program application is launched. Be sure to include your full name, address, email, and phone number as well as the vehicle and date of purchase. You will be contacted via email as soon as the incentive application is available

 

https://www.chargepoint.com/incentives/home

 

If your curious at all

 

So its not like it will be a huge up front cost for it.

 

Not to mention at $4.50 a gallon gas, you'll be spending roughly $3100 a year in gas (using my wife's Escape as an example) vs say $700 a year for a Mach E. 

 

 

 

 

[jpd80]

Power utilities offering to assist with level 2 charging set up is interesting, clearly they see huge benefit in potential long term sales 

.

All seems so ironic compared to a few years ago when everyone seemed to push for domestic electric consumers saving/conserving power and now they want to increase usage and sales because lots of money/profit  in charging vehicles….

Edited July 17, 2022 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

All seems so ironic compared to a few years ago when everyone seemed to push for domestic electric consumers saving/conserving power and now they want to increase usage and sales because lots of money/profit  in charging vehicles….

 

The thing is that there are so many variables at play-I just saw an article about smart thermostats and them causing demand spikes because people haven't set them up properly (the example they used was New York during the winter time-everyones heat would cycle upwards around 6AM) removing cost savings and demand. 

 

I often wonder about studies like this-and if they are getting paid by groups actively against using tech like this, like you see what is happening with BEVs...follow the money...and remember stupidity has no bounds. 

[j2sys]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Power utilities offering to assist with level 2 charging set up is interesting, clearly they see huge benefit in potential long term sales 

.

All seems so ironic compared to a few years ago when everyone seemed to push for domestic electric consumers saving/conserving power and now they want to increase usage and sales because lots of money/profit  in charging vehicles….

 

At least some of those come with a requirement to sign up for a time-of-use plan.  That'd be the case for me - $500 rebate, but you sign up for a plan that incentivizes with lower rates to change during off-peak hours.  That's their play.  Not sure if it's the same everywhere.

[rperez817]

12 hours ago, j2sys said:

At least some of those come with a requirement to sign up for a time-of-use plan.  That'd be the case for me - $500 rebate, but you sign up for a plan that incentivizes with lower rates to change during off-peak hours.  That's their play.  Not sure if it's the same everywhere.

 

You are correct j2sys, that's a common approach. My residential electric power plan is structured like that for BEV charging, with TOU, a sign-up rebate, and a monthly subscription fee for unlimited off-peak BEV charging for my Tesla Model S and my wife's Mustang Mach-E. BEV charging during on-peak periods (which my wife and I never had to do) incurs a per kWH surcharge.

[rperez817]

On 7/16/2022 at 10:12 PM, AGR said:

Eventually, any apartments or condos with their own parking will have to install chargers if they want to keep or attract tenants. Old houses will have to rewire if the owners want decent resale value. (old houses have to be rewired eventually anyway)

 

That's correct AGR. Some local governments in the U.S. are already requiring a certain percentage of parking spaces at new or remodeled apartment complexes be equipped with EV charging capabilities. 

 

Example. King County, Washington, which approved such legislation last year. Council approves requirement for electric vehicle charging in new development - King County

 

Specifically, the legislation would require that new or substantially remodeled apartment buildings make 10% of parking spaces capable of charging electric vehicles (meaning they include all needed equipment to connect and charge) and 25% of spaces EV-ready (meaning the infrastructure is in place to install a charger at some future time).

"The pace of transportation electrification is growing exponentially,” said King County Councilmember Rod Dembowski. “This legislation is essential to build the infrastructure King County needs to lead the nation in decarbonizing our transportation network. As we are now seeing, our planet can't wait."

[slemke]

5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

That's correct AGR. Some local governments in the U.S. are already requiring a certain percentage of parking spaces at new or remodeled apartment complexes be equipped with EV charging capabilities. 

 

Example. King County, Washington, which approved such legislation last year. Council approves requirement for electric vehicle charging in new development - King County

 

 

 

Which is great until buildings just don’t get renovated.  The added cost of new government regulations makes it prohibitively expensive so it just doesn’t get done.

 

My neighborhood pool is an example.  There was talk of expanding the pool, but the added cost of bringing everything else up to the latest codes made the project prohibitively expensive and the proposal was dropped.  Eventually we’ll be faced with upgrading the whole thing or closing it down.

 

NC wants to take out the free public chargers.  Pretty sure there was some lobbying by the service station owners that want to expand and put up their own for profit charging stations.  It probably needs to be done, though, in order to attract the private investment needed for long term success.

[silvrsvt]

9 hours ago, slemke said:

Which is great until buildings just don’t get renovated.  The added cost of new government regulations makes it prohibitively expensive so it just doesn’t get done.

 

My neighborhood pool is an example.  There was talk of expanding the pool, but the added cost of bringing everything else up to the latest codes made the project prohibitively expensive and the proposal was dropped.  Eventually we’ll be faced with upgrading the whole thing or closing it down.

 

NC wants to take out the free public chargers.  Pretty sure there was some lobbying by the service station owners that want to expand and put up their own for profit charging stations.  It probably needs to be done, though, in order to attract the private investment needed for long term success.

 

Adding charging vs updating a pool is two different balls of wax. 

 

Adding electrical service isn't normally a huge project say building a new pool-Your working with existing structures and normally don't need to major work to install charging systems. 

[Flying68]

13 hours ago, slemke said:

NC wants to take out the free public chargers.  Pretty sure there was some lobbying by the service station owners that want to expand and put up their own for profit charging stations.  It probably needs to be done, though, in order to attract the private investment needed for long term success.

Are these "free" public chargers government (state) owned or are they utility owned, or private NGO owned?  Makes a big difference.  Even cities usually have some power to provide free services even if there is a competing for profit company providing the service, e.g. trash.  Service stations should be installing their own if for no other reason to drive traffic to their convenience stores.

[rperez817]

14 hours ago, slemke said:

NC wants to take out the free public chargers.  Pretty sure there was some lobbying by the service station owners that want to expand and put up their own for profit charging stations. 

 

1 hour ago, Flying68 said:

Are these "free" public chargers government (state) owned or are they utility owned, or private NGO owned?  Makes a big difference.  Even cities usually have some power to provide free services even if there is a competing for profit company providing the service, e.g. trash.  Service stations should be installing their own if for no other reason to drive traffic to their convenience stores.

 

The relevant bill in the North Carolina General Assembly is H.B. 1049. DRH40706-LMa-163 (ncleg.gov)

[Flying68]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

The relevant bill in the North Carolina General Assembly is H.B. 1049. DRH40706-LMa-163 (ncleg.gov)

Dumb bill.  Any business that wants to provide a free charger can simply show 0 on the bill.  How can the state prove that the cost wasn't absorbed by the business or wrapped up into marketing costs.

[HotRunrGuy]

No gas, no squeegee    

 

HRG

[jpd80]

Once again we’re back to the issue of up front costs in providing the ability to charge EVs, be that home owners or councils wanting to provide access to public chargers. All of this costs money even if the costs are subsidised, I suspect that this will only be available in the first few years to early adopters, the rest will pay what amounts to subscription…

 

Dont get me wrong, electrics are the future, especially when oil and gas producers can’t be trusted with stable pricing (signing their own death warrant at the moment). People will be able to get a better view of ownership costs lease vs lease (outright sale, BEVs are still way too expensive).

Edited July 19, 2022 by jpd80

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Once again we’re back to the issue of up front costs in providing the ability to charge EVs, be that home owners or councils wanting to provide access to public chargers. All of this costs money even if the costs are subsidised, I suspect that this will only be available in the first few years to early adopters, the rest will pay what amounts to subscription…

 

Dont get me wrong, electrics are the future, especially when oil and gas producers can’t be trusted with stable pricing (signing their own death warrant at the moment). People will be able to get a better view of ownership costs lease vs lease (outright sale, BEVs are still way too expensive).

to be fair, once EVs take over the market, I’m sure we’ll suddenly magically see the same pricing issues with electricity.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

to be fair, once EVs take over the market, I’m sure we’ll suddenly magically see the same pricing issues with electricity.

Funny how that works…..

[CurtisH]

11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Adding charging vs updating a pool is two different balls of wax. 

 

Adding electrical service isn't normally a huge project say building a new pool-Your working with existing structures and normally don't need to major work to install charging systems. 

Not sure I agree with the bolded part..  if you have to install the infrastructure for 25% of your parking spots to support charging and provide actual chargers for 10% of the parking spots, that is a significant increase in the electrical demands.  I would expect that to be pretty expensive. 

[slemke]

15 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Adding charging vs updating a pool is two different balls of wax. 

 

Adding electrical service isn't normally a huge project say building a new pool-Your working with existing structures and normally don't need to major work to install charging systems. 

We may be thinking of different scopes of electrical work.  Adding a charger to a single family home isn’t nearly as expensive as adding them to large apartment complexes that may require new feeder lines, etc.  it is those large projects I was thinking would be impacted.  It comes down to how much the required upgrades cost relative to what the cost of the project would be without them.  Let the market decide.  It is more efficient at allocating scarce resources than government.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, slemke said:

We may be thinking of different scopes of electrical work.  Adding a charger to a single family home isn’t nearly as expensive as adding them to large apartment complexes that may require new feeder lines, etc.  it is those large projects I was thinking would be impacted.  It comes down to how much the required upgrades cost relative to what the cost of the project would be without them.  Let the market decide.  It is more efficient at allocating scarce resources than government.

Older homes would require new 200+ amp service and that may require utility upgrades as well in rural/older areas.  And once you upgrade the panel you may have to upgrade the whole house wiring.

 

Apartments could get by with a few chargers but once you get past 3 or 4 you’re talking commercial power and that’s not cheap.

[silvrsvt]

38 minutes ago, akirby said:

Older homes would require new 200+ amp service and that may require utility upgrades as well in rural/older areas.  And once you upgrade the panel you may have to upgrade the whole house wiring.

 

There would be no reason to upgrade the wiring in the house at all-it would still be either 15 or 20 Amp to the sockets/lights

 

I found this article and it explains things a bit better

 

https://drewathome.com/200-amp-service-for-your-electric-car/

 

What it boils down to is that its a good idea, just incase you have everything running at the same time. I've seen setups where it uses the dryer powerline (with a switch-if the dryer is running it turns the charger off) to charge the car, but not sure if that would be able to support level II charging off the top of my head. 

 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

There would be no reason to upgrade the wiring in the house at all-it would still be either 15 or 20 Amp to the sockets/lights

 

I found this article and it explains things a bit better

 

https://drewathome.com/200-amp-service-for-your-electric-car/

 

What it boils down to is that its a good idea, just incase you have everything running at the same time. I've seen setups where it uses the dryer powerline (with a switch-if the dryer is running it turns the charger off) to charge the car, but not sure if that would be able to support level II charging off the top of my head. 

 

That chart is outdated and wrong.  You can’t divide by 240 volts because most of those loads are 120v.    But if you have older wiring you may be forced to upgrade by code anyway.  
 

Either way it can still be expensive to just add a charger to an older home.

[rperez817]

19 hours ago, Flying68 said:

Dumb bill.  Any business that wants to provide a free charger can simply show 0 on the bill.  How can the state prove that the cost wasn't absorbed by the business or wrapped up into marketing costs.

 

For sure Flying68. The North Carolina H.B. 1049 bill in its current form is so silly and inane that political grandstanding is the only possible reason it was written in the first place.

 

Ezra Dyer at Car and Driver commented on this bill, saying its "animating principle is Being Mad at Electricity". North Carolina Bill Would Mandate Removal of Free EV Chargers (caranddriver.com)

[fordmantpw]

56 minutes ago, akirby said:

That chart is outdated and wrong.  You can’t divide by 240 volts because most of those loads are 120v.    But if you have older wiring you may be forced to upgrade by code anyway.  
 

Either way it can still be expensive to just add a charger to an older home.

 

They're talking total watts, so it's not wrong.  It may be outdated, but the math looks accurate.

 

But yes, adding a charger to an older home could be expensive.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, fordmantpw said:

 

They're talking total watts, so it's not wrong.  It may be outdated, but the math looks accurate.

I get it now.  I was thinking 240 is half the amps of 120 but it uses both legs so the total amps is the same.

[fordmantpw]

53 minutes ago, akirby said:

I get it now.  I was thinking 240 is half the amps of 120 but it uses both legs so the total amps is the same.

 

And posting twice gives you twice as many characters! ? 

[HotRunrGuy]

26 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

 

And posting twice gives you twice as many characters! ? 

 

He's on the home stretch in the race to 40K,,,,,,

 

HRG