Ford CEO Jim Farley Indirectly Says Ford Escape Facing Cancellation

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

Knowing Ford, Cucumber Sport and Cucumber Connect will launch before Cucumber. ?

If Ford is insistent on bringing back more old names, then I say we need a cucumber probe ASAP. 

[jpd80]

On 6/3/2022 at 8:42 AM, The Handler said:

The Bronco Sport is the true successor to the original Escape. I see them everywhere now - mostly driven by young women.
 

I always thought ditching the Escape’s original formula in favor of a blah tall hatch look was a mistake.

Interestingly, when BS was released, some of Ford dealer sales staff were suggesting that Ford was positioning it as the successor to the Escape…..makes me wonder if Ford  was planning a return to a squarer Gen 1 Escape but decided to rename as Bronco in 2016 development and then Bronco Sport once T6 Bronco began development later that year.

 

Torturous logic I’ll agree but much changed behind the scenes when Mark Fields got the flick and Farley/Hackett changed focus.

[jcartwright99]

I think I have a different take here.

 

Farley talking too much like a car guy and not enough l like a CEO. Not every vehicle needs to be a passionate home run. That works for F-150, Mustang, and Bronco. However, there is a large segment of buyers that view vehicles as appliances and care more about cost of ownership than something unique. His comments seem to alienate folks that buy white or beige sedans and SUVS.

 

Toyota sells a crap ton of vehicles  but very few have any sort of passion.

[rmc523]

On 6/2/2022 at 9:16 PM, bzcat said:

 

But if Ford can get another $500 per vehicle calling it Explorer Sport instead of Escape, why should they stick with the Escape name? You are assuming Ford is exiting the market but that's not the case. They are still going to sell a compact SUV and a midsize SUV. Whether they are called Explorer Sport or Escape, Mustang Mach E or Edge is not as important as getting the product right.

I think it’s stupid to just slap Explorer on every product.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

I think it’s stupid to just slap Explorer on every product.

True but Ford is establishing a certain pattern with names like Bronco and Mustang….it’s natural to assume that Explorer might be next.

[fuzzymoomoo]

6 hours ago, jcartwright99 said:

Toyota sells a crap ton of vehicles  but very few have any sort of passion.

You’re right about that. Even the ones that have any kind of passion (Supra and 86) are joint ventures with other companies (BMW and Subaru respectively) Ford definitely won't be going down that road. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

True but Ford is establishing a certain pattern with names like Bronco and Mustang….it’s natural to assume that Explorer might be next.

Ford already made Explorer it's own brand in the 2000s. Not sure I agree with doing it again but with the way they’re talking I can see it happen again. 

[jpd80]

19 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Ford already made Explorer it's own brand in the 2000s. Not sure I agree with doing it again but with the way they’re talking I can see it happen again. 

True and the same here, just an observation of what Ford seems to be doing with model names…

[jpd80]

42 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

You’re right about that. Even the ones that have any kind of passion (Supra and 86) are joint ventures with other companies (BMW and Subaru respectively) Ford definitely won't be going down that road. 

Yeah, Ford talks a good game but you can tell that they are after a smaller audience of buyers who are prepared to pay more for a certain experience, whether outsiders think it’s good value or not is beside the point.

 

just heard from a very reliable source that Ford’s chip supply problems are going to extend well into next year….

I’m starting to think that Ford and GM’s chip suppliers are taking the piss…..

Edited June 4, 2022 by jpd80

[jcartwright99]

49 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

You’re right about that. Even the ones that have any kind of passion (Supra and 86) are joint ventures with other companies (BMW and Subaru respectively) Ford definitely won't be going down that road. 

Don’t forget the Taco and Land Cruiser. They sure have a following in the off-road community. They are plenty capable off road. So I call them passion vehicles. 
 

Outside of these plus what you mentioned, their vehicles have no pulse….at all. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by jcartwright99

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, jcartwright99 said:

Don’t forget the Taco and Land Cruiser. They sure have a following in the off-road community. They are plenty capable off road. So I call them passion vehicles. 
 

Outside of these plus what you mentioned, their vehicles have no pulse….at all. 

 

The elephant in the room is that Toyota and Honda have a reputation of making vehicles that are very reliable. Not sure how much that applies today, but for years its been buy Toyota X or Honda X if you want a car. The vast majority of their products are as interesting as dish water, even with Toyota trying to come out with performance models of ICE products...and both seem to behind the curve with BEVs to a point. 

Ford is targeting a more passionate buyer that doesn't mind spending more on a product, even if they sell less of them. 

 

The Edge market seems like its getting divided up by the Bronco and Mach E at the moment and I'm guessing the BEV Explorer will be the "real" replacement in for it, since I have a feeling its going to be a two row vehicle and not three like the current one. the CD6 Explorer gets replaced at the end of the decade by a three row BEV based on the Explorer "sport" as we will call it now.

 

Given the current way of doing having an ICE plant and BEV plant making products, it seems like 5-7 years from now, Ford will have alot more room for different products, if BEVs are that much more easy to assemble vs ICE products. Maybe we will see more sedan or other form factors added to the line up?

[2005Explorer]

On 6/2/2022 at 11:29 AM, rmc523 said:

So here’s my thought - I get the whole icons and non-commodity idea.

 

but why can’t they elevate the Escape product to a higher level to where it stands out above the crowd and thus isn’t a commodity?

the answer IMO, can’t be “slap Bronco or Mustang on every product” - at some point you dilute those brands and make them commodities by doing that too excessively.

Oldsmobile put the iconic Cutlass brand on pretty much everything below the Eighty-Eight back in the day and we see how well that worked out long term.

 

It's hard to elevate the Escape brand because it's been a commodity product it's whole life. It is just being sold in place of a midsized sedan today. It's running into the same exact problem the Fusion did toward the last few years. I called it back when Ford was canceling all sedans. You've got to have some entry level value driven products if you want to bring new customers in the door. Maverick can't be the only offering in that space, but as it stands today Escape is a failed product.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, 2005Explorer said:

You've got to have some entry level value driven products if you want to bring new customers in the door..

That’s a popular theory but not sure it happens in actuality.  Not having Ranger or Maverick sure didn’t hurt F series.  If you have really good differentiated products you’ll get sales either way.

[bzcat]

On 6/3/2022 at 10:06 PM, rmc523 said:

I think it’s stupid to just slap Explorer on every product.

 

But it works.

 

See F-Series, Transit, Bronco, Mustang. 

 

Explorer Sport will offer symmetry and clear positioning vs. Bronco Sport. 

 

Although I must hand it to @DeluxeStang - Cucumber Probe is the best name for the new SUV.

Edited June 6, 2022 by bzcat

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

But it works.

 

See F-Series, Transit, Bronco, Mustang. 

 

Explorer Sport will offer symmetry and clear positioning vs. Bronco Sport. 

 

Although I must hand it to @DeluxeStang - Cucumber Probe is the best name for the new SUV.

I guess.

 

so itd then be:

Explorer Sport (Escape)

Explorer (2 row Edge replacement)

Explorer Max (current 3 row, following Expedition/Expedition max nomenclature)?

[ehaase]

4 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

Oldsmobile put the iconic Cutlass brand on pretty much everything below the Eighty-Eight back in the day and we see how well that worked out long term.

 

I

Those cars failed, not because they were called Cutlass, but because they were uncompetitive, inadequately developed vehicles with unrefined and unreliable components rushed into production to meet CAFE and because of GM hubris trying to dominate the market, imploding with the $7 billion W body boondoggle. . 

[bzcat]

4 hours ago, rmc523 said:

I guess.

 

so itd then be:

Explorer Sport (Escape)

Explorer (2 row Edge replacement)

Explorer Max (current 3 row, following Expedition/Expedition max nomenclature)?

 

Maybe... Explorer Sport was just my suggestion. I don't actually know what Ford is planning.

 

I've become really attached to Cucumber in the last 3 days. It's a great name!

[jasonj80]

A little bird that fly's pretty high told me today people at Ford are NOT HAPPY this was said and internally some damaged control has started. It was UGLY after this and the hope was it would just die on its own and not gain traction.

It was a statement dealing with transition and wasn't said properly with vehicle names and absolute terms; nothing has been finalized if the Escape name was going to transition over to an Electric. "Escape" name recognition is over 85%, the updated model is launching soon (including a large bump in program budget) that fixes the current shortcomings and this is going to over shadow it.  Not a place Ford wants to be with a new model.

 

 

[2005Explorer]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

That’s a popular theory but not sure it happens in actuality.  Not having Ranger or Maverick sure didn’t hurt F series.  If you have really good differentiated products you’ll get sales either way.

Then why not just cancel all pickups below the F-150 Lariat? The Maverick, Ranger and lower F-150 trim levels serve a purpose even if they don’t make profit like fully loaded $80k models do. It’s a popular theory around here that Ford shouldn’t be selling any products in the under $50k market, but most forum members on this site wouldn’t flinch at paying $80k for a vehicle. Get out in the real world and you’ll find more hesitation at those high figures.

[jpd80]

11 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Maybe... Explorer Sport was just my suggestion. I don't actually know what Ford is planning.

 

I've become really attached to Cucumber in the last 3 days. It's a great name!

LOL

Here’s a thought, what if the “Explorer Sport” was a squarer SUV top hat on the MME?

[jpd80]

11 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

A little bird that fly's pretty high told me today people at Ford are NOT HAPPY this was said and internally some damaged control has started. It was UGLY after this and the hope was it would just die on its own and not gain traction.

It was a statement dealing with transition and wasn't said properly with vehicle names and absolute terms; nothing has been finalized if the Escape name was going to transition over to an Electric. "Escape" name recognition is over 85%, the updated model is launching soon (including a large bump in program budget) that fixes the current shortcomings and this is going to over shadow it.  Not a place Ford wants to be with a new model.

 

Farley has been dropping some clangers  lately, sounds like he actually expressing views that were expected to remain private. Those going back to $3 billion cut to Ford Blue, not good in a UAW negotiation year, then selling EVs on line cut out dealers thing, not really happening and then Escape and Edge are commodity vehicles implying going away…….

 

If I didn’t know better, I say Farley deliberately  threw things open to general opinion in the hopes of locking Ford into a strategy….maybe he’s not getting his way behind the scenes?

 

Or is he trying to woo Wall Street with talk that’s encouraging to them and investors while knowing it will be walked back when no one is looking…

 

Either way, Farley makes  life interesting…

Edited June 7, 2022 by jpd80

[pffan1990]

42 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

LOL

Here’s a thought, what if the “Explorer Sport” was a squarer SUV top hat on the MME?

 

That's actually a good idea. The Explorer Sport EV being on the current 2-row MME (GE1) while upcoming 3-row Explorer EV being on next gen GE2. You had previously suggested in another thread leveraging the MME to be used for 'C2'-based EVs in North America, such as Escape and others to amortize the costs. I liked and agreed with that idea and responded to that there. Should add the Bronco Sport, Maverick, Transit Connect (though that may jump straight to the GE2, I think), and even the Edge (may be GE2 as well) EVs. The next gen MME would likely move to OAP in Canada, as some think (not sure if confirmed), leaving current gen MME in Mexico.

Here's my idea: keep making the current MME in Mexico while the next gen MME (likely slightly larger than current MME) is made in OAP. However, thoroughly upgrade the current MME with new styling and rename it 'MME Sport'. Right there, an additional member of the Mustang family has been created, further amortizing the costs of the GE1 MME architecture. ExplorerDude said in another thread that the Mustang family will expand soon (quote below) so this could be one way of doing it.
 

On 5/12/2022 at 12:28 PM, ExplorerDude said:

The Mustang family will expand….other variants/body styles may or may not be coming to the Mach-E….

 

The Mexican plant can continue making the MME Sport and Explorer Sport, plus perhaps a Lincoln version or two. The next gen MME is in Canada along with the other GE2-based products like the Explorer/Aviator/Nautilus/Corsair. Other plants will need to be used for the EVs of Bronco Sport, Maverick, Transit Connect, which I doubt would all fit in the Mexican EV plant. In the meantime, after the ICE Escape/Corsair ends in 2027 or so (ExplorerDude says this in the previous page of this thread and quoted below), the Louisville LAP plant can then be re-tooled to expand EV capacity and used as EV overflow plant.

 

On 6/2/2022 at 6:41 PM, ExplorerDude said:

Current Escape runs until MY2027. There is no next generation ICE planned. It will be replaced by a BEV. Hopefully the Escape name will continue on the BEV.

[akirby]

12 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

Then why not just cancel all pickups below the F-150 Lariat? The Maverick, Ranger and lower F-150 trim levels serve a purpose even if they don’t make profit like fully loaded $80k models do. It’s a popular theory around here that Ford shouldn’t be selling any products in the under $50k market, but most forum members on this site wouldn’t flinch at paying $80k for a vehicle. Get out in the real world and you’ll find more hesitation at those high figures.

Nobody here has ever said that.  And we weren’t talking about entry level models we were talking about entry level vehicles to bring in new customers.  I assume you’re thinking if someone buys a cheap Yaris that makes them a Toyotaphile for life.  I think it’s just the opposite - people who buy cheap vehicles have no loyalty - they’ll buy whatever is cheaper next time.  Within a particular model, lower end versions boost sales and because they’re just decontented versions of the same vehicle they’re very profitable as opposed to a completely different vehicle.

 

Even so Maverick and Bronco Sport have the lower end covered nicely and because they aren’t commodities they should have decent profit margins.  I expect the same for BEVs.

[T-dubz]

I hate the idea of different vehicles sharing names. We are two years in to the bronco sport and people are still confusing it with the bronco. it was stupid with the explorer, and it’s still stupid with the bronco and mustang. Build a vehicle that people want, and it will sell itself. You don’t need marketing gimmicks. 

[The Handler]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

I hate the idea of different vehicles sharing names. We are two years in to the bronco sport and people are still confusing it with the bronco. it was stupid with the explorer, and it’s still stupid with the bronco and mustang. Build a vehicle that people want, and it will sell itself. You don’t need marketing gimmicks. 

It didn’t help being the first to launch. I actually heard people around town saying they saw the new Bronco and how disappointed they were by it.