j2sys Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 1 hour ago, akirby said: Sounds like there was. 1 hour ago, mackinaw said: 15 years on the injectors. Good thing to note. Was having a hard time pulling up the details on mobile earlier. The official Ford.com page about recall 22S73 does confirm the 15 year warranty extension on cracked fuel injectors. That does seem more than reasonable, albeit without preventing the hassle should the injectors prove to be defective. https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/recall/recalls-and-faqs/bronco-sport-escape-fuel-injector/ Quote Will there be a charge to customers? There is no charge for any service related to this recall. Ford is also expanding your warranty to cover cracked fuel injectors for up to 15 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, akirby said: Ok I thought it was a bad head. No worries, I can see why you would think that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe after resolving that, the issues haven't really come up again over the last several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 20 hours ago, akirby said: This is what I have a problem with. You’re suggesting this isn’t a valid solution and instead want Ford to replace 2.4M perfectly fine injectors, A. You can’t physically manufacture and replace 2.4M injectors overnight - it would take a year or two at least. Remember the air bags? B. The fix will identify the leak based on fuel pressure and with the drain should eliminate fires. The system detects the leak and the bad injector is replaced under warranty. Rant all you want about Ford having so many issues. But saying this isn’t a good solution is ignoring facts. It may be a solution to you, but it's a band aid to me. The root of the problem is faulty injectors. Ford has to find out what went wrong and a date range or batch this problem started and stopped. Then get the problem fixed. Get the manufacture to pick up the tab for the recall. Yes it's a band aid and it's better than nothing for now. But having a 3 cylinder going down to 2 so I can get the car home is just well going to be a slow ride home. So the car has to go to the dealer anyway to get the bad injector replaced. Do you think they wold replace all 3? I doubt it, even though they should. If Ford doesn't mind the customer being pissed off then I guess it's a good band aid "temporary" solution. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyd Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 19 hours ago, jpd80 said: Correct so they must implement immediate control measures or people stop driving their vehicles. Diverting leaked fuel is terrible choice but getting it away from hot areas is an absolute priority. Perhaps they need time to identify which batches of the 2.4 million should be prioritised for replacement… Yes it’s bad that Ford allowed such a massive lapse in quality to exist in the first place, the question now is how can that be controlled and corrected without putting owners in harms way…. I'm wondering if they are going to revise the injectors on the 2023 vehicles or simply attach hoses and update the software? I appreciate the 15 year warranty, but still wonder about the cause! They are curing the symptom....but what is the cause? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyd Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, coupe3w said: It may be a solution to you, but it's a band aid to me. The root of the problem is faulty injectors. Ford has to find out what went wrong and a date range or batch this problem started and stopped. Then get the problem fixed. Get the manufacture to pick up the tab for the recall. Yes it's a band aid and it's better than nothing for now. But having a 3 cylinder going down to 2 so I can get the car home is just well going to be a slow ride home. So the car has to go to the dealer anyway to get the bad injector replaced. Do you think they wold replace all 3? I doubt it, even though they should. If Ford doesn't mind the customer being pissed off then I guess it's a good band aid "temporary" solution. I wonder if there is something else that is causing the injectors to crack...such as insufficient fuel mixture into the firing chamber ,which is one of the main causes for cracked injectors in the past? If it was the injectors I think they would have indicated certain lots or production dates the injectors were produced? Or, is there something in the design of this new engine? Lots of questions! https://www.wapcar.my/collect-faqs/audi-a6-fuel-injector-1647237716636#:~:text=What causes a fuel injector to crack%3F 1,can quickly lead to the formation of cracks. Edited November 28, 2022 by bobbyd 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 59 minutes ago, coupe3w said: If Ford doesn't mind the customer being pissed off then I guess it's a good band aid "temporary" solution. Something something DCT/DPS6 something something... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 1 hour ago, bobbyd said: I'm wondering if they are going to revise the injectors on the 2023 vehicles or simply attach hoses and update the software? I appreciate the 15 year warranty, but still wonder about the cause! They are curing the symptom....but what is the cause? It appears to be a manufacturing defect in a very small percentage of injectors. If they know what caused it they’ve fixed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarheels23 Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 1 hour ago, bobbyd said: I'm wondering if they are going to revise the injectors on the 2023 vehicles or simply attach hoses and update the software? I appreciate the 15 year warranty, but still wonder about the cause! They are curing the symptom....but what is the cause? I do not have an answer but this is the right question. Most folk only worry about the what but until you find out the why nothing really gets better. The why is the only place the solution resides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 1 hour ago, coupe3w said: It may be a solution to you, but it's a band aid to me. The root of the problem is faulty injectors. Ford has to find out what went wrong and a date range or batch this problem started and stopped. Then get the problem fixed. Get the manufacture to pick up the tab for the recall. Yes it's a band aid and it's better than nothing for now. But having a 3 cylinder going down to 2 so I can get the car home is just well going to be a slow ride home. So the car has to go to the dealer anyway to get the bad injector replaced. Do you think they wold replace all 3? I doubt it, even though they should. If Ford doesn't mind the customer being pissed off then I guess it's a good band aid "temporary" solution. OMG - you think this is all they’re doing and they’re not actually finding and fixing the root cause? That’s ridiculous! If they haven’t already identified the problem they’re working on it. This is the solution for the ones already installed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 58 minutes ago, tarheels23 said: I do not have an answer but this is the right question. Most folk only worry about the what but until you find out the why nothing really gets better. The why is the only place the solution resides. They always do root cause analysis on things like this. It may or may not be complete yet but it will be. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 22 hours ago, akirby said: They always do root cause analysis on things like this. It may or may not be complete yet but it will be. And you know this how? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 LOL...... https://fb.watch/h5RfXjBZLr/ 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 On 11/28/2022 at 9:32 AM, coupe3w said: If Ford doesn't mind the customer being pissed off Ford definitely doesn't mind that. The company can rely on a large contingent of "sheeple" continuing to be loyal Ford customers no matter what. I'm one of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 32 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Ford definitely doesn't mind that. The company can rely on a large contingent of "sheeple" continuing to be loyal Ford customers no matter what. I'm one of them. I was but not anymore. They have about a year to convince me the quality issues have been corrected or else I’m going to keep my Fusion or trade it in and buy some shitbox I don’t have to make payments on. As it is my Flex is starting to irritate me with the little things starting to pop up on it and it hasn’t even hit 30,000 miles yet. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 23 hours ago, akirby said: They always do root cause analysis on things like this. It may or may not be complete yet but it will be. 1 hour ago, coupe3w said: And you know this how? What akirby may be referring to are the design and process failure mode effects analysis that Ford requires of its suppliers when submitting a PSW. See pages 11 and 12 in the attached document. Ford_Specifics_for_PPAP-1Nov2020.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 2 hours ago, rperez817 said: What akirby may be referring to are the design and process failure mode effects analysis that Ford requires of its suppliers when submitting a PSW. See pages 11 and 12 in the attached document. Ford_Specifics_for_PPAP-1Nov2020.pdf I wonder if Ford does on site reviews / audits of vendors as often as they should. Would be nice if they showed up unannounced at some of their vendors to see what is really going on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 4 hours ago, coupe3w said: And you know this how? I was going to say “because I’m not stupid” but that wouldn’t be nice so let’s try it this way. A. They have to prove to the NHTSA that the problem has been resolved. Therefore they need to know root cause. B. Without knowing root cause they don’t know whether it was a manufacturing or installation defect. C. Without root cause they would be facing future recalls and HUGE future warranty repair costs far beyond the exiting recalled vehicles. D. The supplier needs to know root cause for cost reasons but also to know if they have a problem that is affecting other products and /or other customers. There is no scenario where Ford and/or the supplier don’t do root cause analysis and fix this problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyd Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 On 11/27/2022 at 7:40 PM, j2sys said: Good thing to note. Was having a hard time pulling up the details on mobile earlier. The official Ford.com page about recall 22S73 does confirm the 15 year warranty extension on cracked fuel injectors. That does seem more than reasonable, albeit without preventing the hassle should the injectors prove to be defective. https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/recall/recalls-and-faqs/bronco-sport-escape-fuel-injector/ I also noticed on the question about any further "investigation" on the issue: Are there any open investigations on this specific issue? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 53 minutes ago, bobbyd said: I also noticed on the question about any further "investigation" on the issue: Are there any open investigations on this specific issue? No. I believe that is referring to NHTSA investigations not internal Ford investigations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 11 hours ago, coupe3w said: And you know this how? Think Kirby has been around the block a few times. I'm retired Ford and recall numerous times when problems large and small resulted in employees and suppliers doing extensive root cause analysis. There are formal presentations known as 6 panel or 8D analysis. Problems on issues smaller than this would get attention at director and VP level. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 14 hours ago, paintguy said: Think Kirby has been around the block a few times. I'm retired Ford and recall numerous times when problems large and small resulted in employees and suppliers doing extensive root cause analysis. There are formal presentations known as 6 panel or 8D analysis. Problems on issues smaller than this would get attention at director and VP level. And yet here we are! Still no improvement in quality and the numbers speak for themselves. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyd Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 On 11/27/2022 at 7:40 PM, j2sys said: Good thing to note. Was having a hard time pulling up the details on mobile earlier. The official Ford.com page about recall 22S73 does confirm the 15 year warranty extension on cracked fuel injectors. That does seem more than reasonable, albeit without preventing the hassle should the injectors prove to be defective. https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/recall/recalls-and-faqs/bronco-sport-escape-fuel-injector/ I wonder if there is a mileage limit on the 15 year warranty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 hours ago, coupe3w said: And yet here we are! Still no improvement in quality and the numbers speak for themselves. Identifying and fixing the root cause of a defective part and fixing systemic quality issues are two different things. We know Ford lost a lot of engineering talent the last decade and we know they squeeze suppliers to the last penny neither of which are good for quality. CAP has internal issues and they tend to rush things too much like the Explorer retooling and launch and Bronco hardtops. On the other hand they’ve launched 9 new ecoboost engines, at least 1 new diesel engine, 5 NA gas engines and a supercharged V8 - all in the last 12 years or so. Not to mention all the platform changes. Meanwhile Toyota just tweaked what they already had for the most part. Change is the enemy of quality. I think they did too much too fast. CD4 was an unnecessary step as was cd6 it appears. 1.6eb and 1.5eb I4s were not needed. One could argue the 2.3, 2.7 and 3.0 ecoboosts could have been covered by high output 2.0 and 3.0 ecoboosts. Old standard 3.5 could have remained. The 5.2 FPC was hella cool but short lived and unnecessary. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 31 minutes ago, akirby said: Meanwhile Toyota just tweaked what they already had for the most part. Change is the enemy of quality. Globally Toyota actually had more new vehicles, platforms, and powertrains than Ford did in the timeframe you mentioned. The main difference is that Toyota Production System has quality and continuous improvement as integral components, something that can't be said of Ford's. Nonetheless, the proliferation of platforms and powertrains at Toyota was getting to the point where it negatively impacted the company's bottom line. When Toyota introduced TNGA several years ago, it aimed to reduce the number of platform variants from about 100 to about 5. Same deal with powertrains - Toyota's Dynamic Force engine family aims to consolidate over 800 gasoline and diesel engine variants to about 20. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 1 hour ago, bobbyd said: I wonder if there is a mileage limit on the 15 year warranty? Probably not, I think mileage really wouldn't matter when it comes to fuel injectors. It's more related to how many times they open and close. Injectors can last an insanely long time. Still running factory originals in my 28 year old F-150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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