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Ford to Fund Its EV Efforts in Part by Laying Off 8000 Workers


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6 hours ago, Kev-Mo said:

EV in real life -so not ready for prime time.  I would be really nervous if I were in the RV business.  There is full frontal assault coming for that industry.

90 miles pulling 6k lbs., who on earth is going to consider that normal truck duty?  Drive to your destination away from it all in the national forest, then wonder how you're going to recharge while setting up camp.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/594871/ford-f150-lightning-vs-gas-truck-towing-range-single-charge/

 

So true, a 90-mile range while towing an RV is hopeless. Will be OK for chaps towing work trailers around town, but definitely wouldn't work for many RV'ers. If we had a 1/2 ton trailer, I can't imagine being limited to campgrounds with 45 miles, to ensure sufficient power for the return. May as well pack a picnic and do day trips without the trailer.

 

When not towing, I get 800+ miles from a full tank on my F-450 and can fill her up in 10 mins. Towing 16,500 lbs, I expect to get 450-miles per tank.

 

Going to be many years before the technology is available for an EV F-450 that provides the same standards as my 6.7 Power Stroke.

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14 hours ago, coupe3w said:

So why is Ford even doing it then? Now they are going for shorter range batteries just because it's easier to get them from China. Doesn't make any sense to me. People want range and quick charging.

 

Multiple reasons.  You have to start somewhere.  For many people, towing their boat to the lake or down to the river, Home Depot runs, lawn care guys who stay in town, the current Lightning will be 100% sufficient.  For those that tow campers a decent distance, it won't.  Just because they can't replace everything now doesn't mean they can't start working toward that goal.  Plus, just based on the performance, there are many people buying the Lightning with 0 intentions of every hooking anything behind it.

 

7 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

 

So true, a 90-mile range while towing an RV is hopeless. Will be OK for chaps towing work trailers around town, but definitely wouldn't work for many RV'ers. If we had a 1/2 ton trailer, I can't imagine being limited to campgrounds with 45 miles, to ensure sufficient power for the return. May as well pack a picnic and do day trips without the trailer.

 

When not towing, I get 800+ miles from a full tank on my F-450 and can fill her up in 10 mins. Towing 16,500 lbs, I expect to get 450-miles per tank.

 

Going to be many years before the technology is available for an EV F-450 that provides the same standards as my 6.7 Power Stroke.

 

Agreed.  That's why trucks will be the last to lose their ICE.

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15 hours ago, coupe3w said:

People want range and quick charging.

 

What would you rather do-

 

worry about fuel prices and going out of your way to buy gas to or from where you are going?

 

or just go home and plug your car in? 
 

For the vast majority of people who use their cars as transportation to and from places, a BEV can work with some changes in behavior, like charging at home. 
 

just because you have to do something different doesn’t make it bad. 
 

in my own use case a BEV would work with no issues for what I need a car to do. 
 

also we are pretty much at the same phase when say the iPhone didn’t offer copy and paste till almost being on the market for two Years. 
 

by the time you look at a new vehicle, charging and battery ranges should be better. 

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49 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

For the vast majority of people who use their cars as transportation to and from places, a BEV can work with some changes in behavior, like charging at home. 


I still think you’re overestimating the number of people who can easily charge at home.

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43 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

If they only invested $500 million, how can they declare a $3.1 billion loss? Just accounting tricks for a tax write-off!

 

Mark-to-market (MTM) accounting. This has been part of GAAP for about 30 years. It does not represent "accounting tricks for a tax write-off" in any way.

 

Flying68 provided an excellent explanation of MTM on Page 2 of this thread. 

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56 minutes ago, akirby said:


I still think you’re overestimating the number of people who can easily charge at home.

 

Outside of seeing say Tesla's data on where consumers charge at, we can argue this both ways. 

 

As for the apartment argument, roughly 1/3 of the US population lives in "high density" areas, but how many of them actually own a car? Esp. if you live in a place like NYC which has a good public transport system. 

 

Most people who are buying BEVs at the moment are early adaptors and have the $$$ pay for at home charging. I'm sure over the next 5-10 years as prices drop and more utilities offer incentives to install chargers, that will help with adaption rates. 

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35 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Outside of seeing say Tesla's data on where consumers charge at, we can argue this both ways. 

 

As for the apartment argument, roughly 1/3 of the US population lives in "high density" areas, but how many of them actually own a car? Esp. if you live in a place like NYC which has a good public transport system. 

 

Most people who are buying BEVs at the moment are early adaptors and have the $$$ pay for at home charging. I'm sure over the next 5-10 years as prices drop and more utilities offer incentives to install chargers, that will help with adaption rates. 

 

Please tell me how the grid is going to support all these BEV vehicles. And don't tell me wind and solar is the answer because it's not. The grid can't even support high demands of electricity now in the hot summer months. Brown outs and black outs ever heard of them?

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51 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Outside of seeing say Tesla's data on where consumers charge at, we can argue this both ways. 

 

As for the apartment argument, roughly 1/3 of the US population lives in "high density" areas, but how many of them actually own a car? Esp. if you live in a place like NYC which has a good public transport system. 

 

Most people who are buying BEVs at the moment are early adaptors and have the $$$ pay for at home charging. I'm sure over the next 5-10 years as prices drop and more utilities offer incentives to install chargers, that will help with adaption rates. 


In Atlanta I’d say 98% of households own a vehicle.   And of course the current buyers have home charging but we’re at a tiny fraction of the market.

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28 minutes ago, akirby said:

In Atlanta I’d say 98% of households own a vehicle.  

 

Atlanta has an extensive public transportation network with MARTA, one of the top 10 in the country. Is the figure for households in that city that have access to at least 1 automobile really that high?

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1 hour ago, Joe771476 said:

 

If they only invested $500 million, how can they declare a $3.1 billion loss? Just accounting tricks for a tax write-off!

No, every quarter, Ford is required to report the value of its Rivian stock and at  there end of 2021,

it took an $8.4 billion paper profit, in Q1 Rivian stock was a $5 billion paper loss.

 

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32 minutes ago, akirby said:

In Atlanta I’d say 98% of households own a vehicle.   And of course the current buyers have home charging but we’re at a tiny fraction of the market.

 

19 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

Atlanta has an extensive public transportation network with MARTA, one of the top 10 in the country. Is the figure for households in that city that have access to at least 1 automobile really that high?

 

The figure for "zero auto households" in the U.S. as a whole is about 9%. This got me interested in finding the data for Atlanta, and also for my home city of Fort Worth.

 

According to the Census Bureau, about 16.3% of households in Atlanta and 5.5% in Fort Worth don't have a motor vehicle. This data makes sense based on my experiences using MARTA in Atlanta and Trinity Metro in Fort Worth. It's much easier to get around without having a car in Atlanta compared to Fort Worth.

 

Also, in my visit to Atlanta, I noticed that BEV are quite popular there. Saw several Teslas, Porsche Taycans, Chevy Bolts, Mustang Mach-Es, and Nissan Leafs among others driving on downtown area streets.

 

image.png.a627b9ba697c8807bc897dc7dd97990c.png

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1 hour ago, coupe3w said:

 

Please tell me how the grid is going to support all these BEV vehicles. And don't tell me wind and solar is the answer because it's not. The grid can't even support high demands of electricity now in the hot summer months. Brown outs and black outs ever heard of them?

China is switching far more rapidly to electric vehicles than North America. Sure a lot of their power comes from coal power plants but, most of the new BEV charging load is being covered by new additions of renewable energy. The problem in North America is that the governments are trying to green the whole power supply more rapidly than China is actually doing, it massive but some states are now over 60% renewables with solar, wind hydro and biogas. It can be done, it’s just such amassive change that most folks only see and feel the negatives when it falls short….

Edited by jpd80
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56 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Atlanta has an extensive public transportation network with MARTA, one of the top 10 in the country. Is the figure for households in that city that have access to at least 1 automobile really that high?


You obviously don’t understand Marta.  Very few people live and work within walking distance of a Marta station and are willing to use the buses.   Everything is too spread out.  

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43 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

The figure for "zero auto households" in the U.S. as a whole is about 9%. This got me interested in finding the data for Atlanta, and also for my home city of Fort Worth.

 

According to the Census Bureau, about 16.3% of households in Atlanta and 5.5% in Fort Worth don't have a motor vehicle. This data makes sense based on my experiences using MARTA in Atlanta and Trinity Metro in Fort Worth. It's much easier to get around without having a car in Atlanta compared to Fort Worth.

 

Also, in my visit to Atlanta, I noticed that BEV are quite popular there. Saw several Teslas, Porsche Taycans, Chevy Bolts, Mustang Mach-Es, and Nissan Leafs among others driving on downtown area streets.


That’s within the city limits.  Outside the city limits it’s much much lower.

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40 minutes ago, akirby said:

You obviously don’t understand Marta.  Very few people live and work within walking distance of a Marta station and are willing to use the buses.   Everything is too spread out.  

 

My experience with MARTA was as a tourist using the rapid transit rail service from Hartsfield Jackson Airport to Peachtree Center downtown, and from Peachtree Center to Five Points and Civic Center stations in the downtown area. Overall, I found MARTA's service on these routes pretty decent by public transit standards.

 

But I understand your point about the greater Atlanta area suffering from sprawl. DFW Metroplex has the same problem.

Edited by rperez817
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32 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

My experience with MARTA was as a tourist using the rapid transit rail service from Hartsfield Jackson Airport to Peachtree Center downtown, and from Peachtree Center to Five Points and Civic Center stations in the downtown area. Overall, I found MARTA's service on these routes pretty decent by public transit standards.

 

But I understand your point about the greater Atlanta area suffering from sprawl. DFW Metroplex has the same problem.


Even if you live and work near Marta you still need a car to go everywhere else.  I bet that 16% is mostly people who don’t work and can’t afford a car.

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18 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

What would you rather do-

 

worry about fuel prices and going out of your way to buy gas to or from where you are going?

 

or just go home and plug your car in? 
 

For the vast majority of people who use their cars as transportation to and from places, a BEV can work with some changes in behavior, like charging at home. 
 

just because you have to do something different doesn’t make it bad. 
 

in my own use case a BEV would work with no issues for what I need a car to do. 
 

also we are pretty much at the same phase when say the iPhone didn’t offer copy and paste till almost being on the market for two Years. 
 

by the time you look at a new vehicle, charging and battery ranges should be better. 

You have to remember there is no such thing as a free lunch.  If everyone is driving an EV, demand for electricity will rise dramatically and so will the price.  Of course the government will get their pound of flesh by taxing electricity used for vehicles.  You may not have to worry about gas, but you may have to decide if you are going to charge your vehicle or run your AC.

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16 hours ago, coupe3w said:

 

Please tell me how the grid is going to support all these BEV vehicles. And don't tell me wind and solar is the answer because it's not. The grid can't even support high demands of electricity now in the hot summer months. Brown outs and black outs ever heard of them?

Haven't you heard? It will be pixie dust and unicorn farts.

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21 hours ago, coupe3w said:

 

Please tell me how the grid is going to support all these BEV vehicles. And don't tell me wind and solar is the answer because it's not. The grid can't even support high demands of electricity now in the hot summer months. Brown outs and black outs ever heard of them?

 

Apparently there is a plan (non including California and other areas that can't supply current demand).  The utility (oops, sorry, we're supposed to be called energy company now) I work for is on track to be net-zero carbon in 2035 (I think that's the date, pulled ahead from 2040) and they are actively pushing electric vehicles.  We're building solar and wind to go along with our nuclear plant and hydro plants.  We're also working to get a larger gas generator up for backup base load.  

 

But, consider that we have been investing in our infrastructure for many years in preparation for this.  We aren't like California and other areas with current brown/black outs.  You can't flip a switch overnight, but don't expect electric cars to be everywhere overnight either.

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Its not even worth arguing with some people-they believe the information that news troll farms are producing. They just want to stick their heads in the sand and not even read the information that as shown ad nauseam. 

Correct, change is happening year by year and every state is working to increase renewable energy generation. The people saying impossible are living back in the twenty teens. Sure, there are some short falls with black outs and brown outs from time to time but this just underscores the need to keep developing more power supply from renewables, not fall back to coal fired generation.

 

I think some states are approaching 60% or more renewable energy contribution. As mentioned earlier, linking up a National power grid would be a great help in equalising any immediate power shortages in select regions.

 

 

Edited by jpd80
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On 7/21/2022 at 4:51 PM, Kev-Mo said:

I would be really nervous if I were in the RV business.

 

RV business is ripe for an all-electric revolution, just like the ongoing revolution for passenger cars/light trucks and commercial vehicles. In May 2021, some former Tesla employees founded a company called Lightship Energy that aims to "upend the [RV] industry" according to TechCrunch. Lightship's focus is on the towable travel trailer side of the RV market. Meet the all-electric RV startup steered by Tesla alumni | TechCrunch 

 

Quote

What started as a pet project to electrify food trucks in the San Francisco Bay area — an enterprise inspired by the cacophony of generators that greeted Ben Parker every day during his lunch break at Tesla — has evolved into a much larger, complex and potentially more lucrative undertaking.

Parker and partner Toby Kraus have set their sights well beyond food trucks and are aiming instead to build an all-electric RV company that will upend the industry.

“Every time that I would tell people about the food truck project, RVs would come up in conversation because these (vehicles) have similar needs for onboard power,” said Parker, a Tesla veteran who worked on the battery for the Model 3.

He soon discovered that the RV market, and specifically the towable travel trailer sector, was much larger than he realized. It was also badly in need of a switch to electric. A three-month, 6,000-mile RV road trip designed to give Parker firsthand experience as well as an understanding of the customer and market provided the final proof points.

Lightship Energy, the startup the pair co-founded in May 2021, was soon charging forward with a high-flying goal.

Lightship is not only trying to design and produce an electric travel trailer that ditches the propane tanks and generators that creates a “bummer RV camping experience” as Parker describes it, the company is also trying to remove a barrier for owners of all-electric SUVs and trucks who want to haul a travel trailer on long road trips.

 

On the motorhome side of the RV Industry, Winnebago Industries is now "road-trip testing" its e-RV all electric motorhome prototype. e-RV is based on Ford Transit with Lightning eMotors' EV powertrain. Electric Concept Motorhome (winnebagoind.com)

Winnebago_Industries_e-RV_Charging_Water

Edited by rperez817
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55 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

RV business is ripe for an all-electric revolution, just like the ongoing revolution for passenger cars/light trucks and commercial vehicles. In May 2021, some former Tesla employees founded a company called Lightship Energy that aims to "upend the [RV] industry" according to TechCrunch. Lightship's focus is on the towable travel trailer side of the RV market. Meet the all-electric RV startup steered by Tesla alumni | TechCrunch 

 

 

On the motorhome side of the RV Industry, Winnebago Industries is now "road-trip testing" its e-RV all electric motorhome prototype. e-RV is based on Ford Transit with Lightning eMotors' EV powertrain. Electric Concept Motorhome (winnebagoind.com)

Winnebago_Industries_e-RV_Charging_Water

Funny the picture is at a charging station because that's where you spend most of your time.

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