Tico Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 The job losses are inevitable as BEV are inherently less complex, less parts mainly, than ICE. This is better for the BEV owner in hopefully less maintenance, but less jobs in manufacturing and maybe less cash for dealer service departments, which I hate anyway. This is normal in any technology transition. The internet killed newspapers. Smart phones killed land lines and arguably desktop and even laptop computer sales. Streaming is killing cable tv channels. iTunes and Spotify are killing local radio. (Yes we need to look at cars more and more like other high tech items and not as basic appliances.) I understand some may disagree with how Ford is handling this, but in the big global picture this technology transition will shift or eliminate jobs. Maybe more that it creates. That is just technology and free markets. If Ford doesn't do it, the Chinese, Koreans and Europeans will flood the market with BEVs world wide regardless of what Ford or the US market does. This is a transition between now and 2035 or 2040. There will be ICE trucks for those who need them for sure. But lets not dismiss these 'Version 1.0" BEV pickups as we need them and need people to buy them if we are ever going to get to BEV pickups that can tow 300 miles and charge and 15 minutes. It may not be until 2035 but we have to start somewhere. For the large minority or is it a majority of suburban truck owners who rarely tow anything this limited tow range of the EV will not matter. I know far too many coworkers, family members, neighbors who own V8 pickups and don't own boats or campers or trailers. These trucks spend 90% of their lives driving to either the office or grocery store with one or two occupants and nothing in the bed or attached to the ball. Batteries will improve in the next 10 years. So will charging and other technologies. Its seems like things are being pushed too fast, but I think you will still be able to get ICE pickups for a long time for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. Let the people who want buy BEVs buy them to finance and create the demand for improvements in charging and batteries. So far every Lightning and Mach E built is sold instantly. So BEV supply is no were near meeting demand yet. Also the power grid will transition to add more capacity, and more green power eventually. It will take time. But its a chicken and egg thing. They will be happy to take the money you used to spend on gas and put it on your electric bill. But they won't build capacity until the demand is there. And yes the BEVs will run on some coal and mostly natural gas electricity at first. But in almost all locations that will still be net cleaner than burning gas in every vehicle. Give the utilities 10 or 20 years to evolve and government regulators to figure this out too. People need to chill. Everything in life is not a war unless people make it that way on both sides...which seems to be all the rage now a days. Am I completely right if everything I said taken literally? No, but I don't want to get into arguments about politics, technology, market phycology, of the moment. That's not the point. The point is the big long term picture of what I am saying is true. In the long run the market will get there. It will be painful for some. Jobs will be shifted or lost. Maybe Ford can do better managing the transition with respect to its employees. But the transition will come over the next 20 years regardless of how Ford or the United States as a whole handles it. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 We need to remain focused on what vehicles Ford wants to build as BEVs and how that interacts with what Ford Blue sells, especially the PHEV and HEV versions. I think the latter will be important in transitioning many fence sitters but equally, give Ford the time needed to balance increase of BEVs against ICE based vehicles…..the interest in electrics is unprecedented and only Ford could stuff this up by turning them into high priced exclusive purchases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 hours ago, jpd80 said: We need to remain focused on what vehicles Ford wants to build as BEVs and how that interacts with what Ford Blue sells, especially the PHEV and HEV versions. I think the latter will be important in transitioning many fence sitters but equally, give Ford the time needed to balance increase of BEVs against ICE based vehicles…..the interest in electrics is unprecedented and only Ford could stuff this up by turning them into high priced exclusive purchases. Well I think its self evident that Ford Blue is going to be full of products that are obsolescent or tech isn't quite there to support it (thinking heavy duty trucks/extensive towing) Ford legend products aka Mustang/Bronco either have one foot in the BEV door or will soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 9 hours ago, Tico said: The job losses are inevitable as BEV are inherently less complex, less parts mainly, than ICE. This is better for the BEV owner in hopefully less maintenance, but less jobs in manufacturing and maybe less cash for dealer service departments, which I hate anyway. This is normal in any technology transition. Good points Tico. In addition to manufacturing and dealer service, design and engineering of BEV also require totally different approaches compared to legacy operations involving ICE vehicles. As Jim Farley mentioned, that entails "totally different talent" to make it all work. So while Ford will continue laying off employees from its Blue division, it will simultaneously recruit heavily that "totally different talent" from design and engineering schools, and from other companies and industries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Are the batteries recyclable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 33 minutes ago, coupe3w said: Are the batteries recyclable? Yes. Ford has been working with a startup company called Redwood Materials since last year to "integrate battery recycling into Ford’s domestic battery strategy." Ford, Redwood Materials Teaming Up on Closed-Loop Battery Recycling, U.S. Supply Chain | Ford Media Center 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Yes. Ford has been working with a startup company called Redwood Materials since last year to "integrate battery recycling into Ford’s domestic battery strategy." Ford, Redwood Materials Teaming Up on Closed-Loop Battery Recycling, U.S. Supply Chain | Ford Media Center Not only that, but when a battery becomes too degraded/worn to provide sufficient range in a vehicle, they can generally be removed from the vehicle and used for purposes like a home backup battery (think Tesla Powerwall made from used EV batteries). Charge it up either by solar panels to use when the sun goes down, or off the grid in times of low demand on a time of use plan, basically buy up the cheap electricity overnight and use it during the day. It's not like EV batteries last until 100k mi and then are scrap. Modern EV batteries tend to last well beyond that before dropping to 80% capacity and they still have usable life in alternate applications after that. Edited July 25, 2022 by j2sys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Interesting video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers09 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 On 7/24/2022 at 10:05 AM, coupe3w said: Funny the picture is at a charging station because that's where you spend most of your time. So true. DW can blow the breaker even when plugged into a 50-amps (240V) supply, which is in fact 100-amps. Don't see any practical way they can get sufficient batteries to provide that amount of power, at least in my lifetime. My 5'er is already 16,500 lbs, so batteries will increase it significantly, reducing truck options. Anyone who has actually used an RV knows they can't lighten the structure due to the less than stellar condition of most roads. If I have to plug in to charge batteries every night, why not maintain the status quo and run everything off the campground pedestal. Why would I pay to cart around hundreds of pounds of batteries. Been RV'ing for 10 years and it definitely wouldn't work for us. No desire to drive a semi tractor to tow our 5'er, if it was loaded with batteries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 59 minutes ago, Rangers09 said: So true. DW can blow the breaker even when plugged into a 50-amps (240V) supply, which is in fact 100-amps. Don't see any practical way they can get sufficient batteries to provide that amount of power, at least in my lifetime. My 5'er is already 16,500 lbs, so batteries will increase it significantly, reducing truck options. Anyone who has actually used an RV knows they can't lighten the structure due to the less than stellar condition of most roads. If I have to plug in to charge batteries every night, why not maintain the status quo and run everything off the campground pedestal. Why would I pay to cart around hundreds of pounds of batteries. Been RV'ing for 10 years and it definitely wouldn't work for us. No desire to drive a semi tractor to tow our 5'er, if it was loaded with batteries. You would be amazed at the length of time some folks can go off-grid in their RV's. Cover the top with solar panels, 4-6 good batteries and a backup generator will keep you going for a long time. Of course, their RVs are still propane, so hot water and fridge are still running on propane. I'm looking forward to building a good solar setup for our retirement fifth wheel in 5-7 years. I want the ability to be off-grid for 5-7 days at a time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Well I think its self evident that Ford Blue is going to be full of products that are obsolescent or tech isn't quite there to support it (thinking heavy duty trucks/extensive towing) Ford legend products aka Mustang/Bronco either have one foot in the BEV door or will soon. Correct and in my previous post, I was thinking more about Ford ramping up hybrids and PHEVs as a way of increasing profits out of Ford Blue but it’s going to be interesting to see how Ford plays this and what buyers actually want…..Ford’s hybrids and BEVs is a more comprehensive plan for buyers where GM ICE-BEV just feels a yes-no choice…maybe I’m over reading this… Edited July 25, 2022 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers09 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 5 hours ago, fordmantpw said: You would be amazed at the length of time some folks can go off-grid in their RV's. Cover the top with solar panels, 4-6 good batteries and a backup generator will keep you going for a long time. Of course, their RVs are still propane, so hot water and fridge are still running on propane. I'm looking forward to building a good solar setup for our retirement fifth wheel in 5-7 years. I want the ability to be off-grid for 5-7 days at a time. Affirmative, friends with a similar 5'er have a solar array and with some restrictions can live full time without plugging in. However, they can only use 1 A/C and as you noted they still use propane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 10 hours ago, rperez817 said: Yes. Ford has been working with a startup company called Redwood Materials since last year to "integrate battery recycling into Ford’s domestic battery strategy." Ford, Redwood Materials Teaming Up on Closed-Loop Battery Recycling, U.S. Supply Chain | Ford Media Center Sure, the batteries are recyclable, it's just the employees are not.... Ford getting into battery recycling is a scary thought, remember when Jac Nasar bought all those junkyards? Genius, pure genius...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said: Sure, the batteries are recyclable, it's just the employees are not.... Ford getting into battery recycling is a scary thought, remember when Jac Nasar bought all those junkyards? Genius, pure genius...... So, how long before the environmentalists come gunning for battery companies and auto manufacturers for not recycling lithium and Nickel other metals in their batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Ford getting into battery recycling is a scary thought, remember when Jac Nasar bought all those junkyards? I remember that. Jacques Nasser was criticized by some auto industry experts at the time, but his concept of transforming Ford from an "old world" automaker to a "new world" consumer products and services company turned out to be prophetic. Over 20 years later, even though the specific products and services may be different from what Nasser had in mind, Ford is undergoing a transition from the "old world" to the new with the split into Blue and Model e divisions, creation of a services and software focused Ford Pro business unit, and collaboration with a variety of organizations inside and outside the automotive industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 On 7/24/2022 at 1:05 PM, coupe3w said: Funny the picture is at a charging station because that's where you spend most of your time. Anyone watch the TFL videos of them driving an F150 lightning with a topper/camper to Alaska? The camper really cut down on range, but they did make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 10 hours ago, coupe3w said: Interesting video Yes. Wasn’t all that cold. It wasn’t like he was taking I-90/I-94/I-90 across MN, ND, MT, ID, and WA during the coldest part of winter. That robot charger would really come in handy in sub zero F weather. I’m still wondering though about the efficiency claims and how AAA was so much worse. Accounting for the speed difference, it wasn’t much of a penalty. Maybe the long drive and the battery pack being warm most of the time helped. The amount of battery capacity drop sitting out in the cold was a bit concerning. I probably wouldn’t leave it out in an airport lot for a couple weeks in January. But, just leave it at home plugged in and avoid the parking charges. Also interesting in that the Tesla charging app didn’t have a quickest route option that charged the battery more often within the 20-80% window to minimize charging times. The same with finding a super charger at the end of the day instead of a regular charger at the hotel and just leaving plugged in overnight. improvements will come in time. Batteries will work better in sub zero weather than currently and heat pumps will help with the electric usage for comfort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 (edited) Next generation batteries are working on changes to the graphite anode to maintain 85% of charge at below freezing, this upgrade can’t come quick enough as capacity lost to the cold is a major drawback to EV sales in the snow states. Edited July 26, 2022 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: I remember that. Jacques Nasser was criticized by some auto industry experts at the time, but his concept of transforming Ford from an "old world" automaker to a "new world" consumer products and services company turned out to be prophetic. Over 20 years later, even though the specific products and services may be different from what Nasser had in mind, Ford is undergoing a transition from the "old world" to the new with the split into Blue and Model e divisions, creation of a services and software focused Ford Pro business unit, and collaboration with a variety of organizations inside and outside the automotive industry. His long range plan was to get Ford out of auto manufacturing, Just marketing, sales, and service. Have subcontractors build all the vehicles. He had all the answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 21 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: His long range plan was to get Ford out of auto manufacturing, Just marketing, sales, and service. Have subcontractors build all the vehicles. He had all the answers. When Nasser became CEO, Ford had two vehicles that carried the rest, F Series and Explorer, he figured that Ford had about two years before the competition ran over the top of them… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 14 hours ago, jpd80 said: So, how long before the environmentalists come gunning for battery companies and auto manufacturers for not recycling lithium and Nickel other metals in their batteries. right after they force everyone to transition to BEVs. same with them realizing batteries come from strip mining… 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 9 hours ago, rmc523 said: right after they force everyone to transition to BEVs. same with them realizing batteries come from strip mining… From what I have read, it has already started. There was some endangered plant that was in the way of a mine. The mine went through anyway. The other recycling elephant in the room is solar panels. Currently, they are ground up and sent to a landfill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 23 minutes ago, slemke said: The other recycling elephant in the room is solar panels. Currently, they are ground up and sent to a landfill. Windmills aren't much better on that front. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Windmills aren't much better on that front. Basically, windmill blades have little inherent value once their useful life as a windmill blade has concluded. Due to their composition, they can't simply be recycled. So yeah, they often just end up in landfills. One alternative, apparently, is to build a bridge out of them... https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/11/22929059/recycled-wind-turbine-blade-bridges-world-first 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 On 7/25/2022 at 8:17 PM, jpd80 said: When Nasser became CEO, Ford had two vehicles that carried the rest, F Series and Explorer, he figured that Ford had about two years before the competition ran over the top of them… So instead of investing in core products, he dumped that money into buying bottomless pits like Jaguar and Land Rover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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