jpd80 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Unlike other manufacturers, Tesla does upgrades on the fly so distinctive breaks in models isn’t going to happen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 9 hours ago, jpd80 said: Unlike other manufacturers, Tesla does upgrades on the fly so distinctive breaks in models isn’t going to happen They only upgrade software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 43 minutes ago, akirby said: They only upgrade software. Tesla continuously deploys upgrades of both hardware and software for its vehicles. In addition to OTA updates, Tesla has been continuously improving its product each quarter (more recently, multiple times each quarter) on the assembly line, rather than by model year as incumbent automakers do. This has been part of Tesla's strategy since Model S started production in 2012. In industrial engineering and project management terminology, the Tesla approach is "agile", while the incumbent automaker approach is "waterfall". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 18 hours ago, jasonj80 said: The elephant in the room for Tesla is that their units are getting old in the style department, you have people that are on their second going on third unit that are tired of it being exactly the same and are shopping around. They are making the Henry Ford mistake with the Model T. It’s not how they’re making changes, it’s what they’re NOT changing. Regular design changes are necessary and Tesla has not been spending money on that except for maybe a small Model S update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 At some point Tesla is going to have to redesign their bodies or risk falling behind in things that matter like ride quality/handling and efficiency. It's just a cost of doing business 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 10 hours ago, jpd80 said: Unlike other manufacturers, Tesla does upgrades on the fly so distinctive breaks in models isn’t going to happen 47 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Tesla continuously deploys upgrades of both hardware and software for its vehicles. In addition to OTA updates, Tesla has been continuously improving its product each quarter (more recently, multiple times each quarter) on the assembly line, rather than by model year as incumbent automakers do. This has been part of Tesla's strategy since Model S started production in 2012. In industrial engineering and project management terminology, the Tesla approach is "agile", while the incumbent automaker approach is "waterfall". All OEM do upgrades on the fly when dealing with quality of parts, fit and finish or even trim pieces, while Tesla might do more they still have defined model years vehicles. As more electric vehicles come to market the chances of Tesla maintaining that momentum becomes comprised when you're not offering something new. The Model S was striking when it came out but the new EQS and Air make a considerably stronger elegant statement than the S does. The Air is just a beautiful car inside and out, and offers way more than an S does. Once BMW gets the i4 in volume it will be interesting if those 3 series customers that left for Tesla come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, jasonj80 said: Once BMW gets the i4 in volume it will be interesting if those 3 series customers that left for Tesla come back. How many of them has Ford siphoned off with the Mach-E and now Lightning? Plus now GM is entering the fray hard with the Equinox, Silverado and Blazer BEVs, as uninteresting as the Blazer and Equinox are. Obviously there's no way of really measuring that but the point is the increasing competition is going to force Tesla's hand at some point. Edited August 31, 2022 by fuzzymoomoo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted August 31, 2022 Author Share Posted August 31, 2022 12 hours ago, jpd80 said: Unlike other manufacturers, Tesla does upgrades on the fly so distinctive breaks in models isn’t going to happen So far, because they haven't needed to. They're not immune to the same forces that push all other makes to up their game every so often with significant design changes inside and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, jasonj80 said: Once BMW gets the i4 in volume it will be interesting if those 3 series customers that left for Tesla come back. Given Tesla's dramatic rise in owner loyalty over the past year and BMW's decline in the same period according to IHS Markit, BMW 3-Series customers who left BMW and bought a Tesla are unlikely to get another BMW, whether an i4 or anything else. Interestingly, the only other luxury brand that improved its owner loyalty rate during that time period was Lincoln. Going back to Ford's hiring and layoff actions, the statement below from IHS Markit represents part of the reason Jim Farley is so serious about getting "totally different talent" at Ford. Tesla not only is selling a lot of cars and crossovers (more than any other luxury brand in May), but these buyers like their vehicles and are buying another one. These are ominous findings for the rest of the industry. Every brand - luxury and mainstream - needs to develop an effective competitive response to Tesla as soon as possible. Edited August 31, 2022 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 7 hours ago, akirby said: They only upgrade software. Under the skin, Tesla introduced gigacastings to the 3 and eliminated a ton of individual parts and welding. Tesla’s 3 and Y are still relatively young vehicles and world wide sales continue to increase, more for the Y of course as people prefer utilities but the compact car still sells astonishingly well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, j2sys said: So far, because they haven't needed to. They're not immune to the same forces that push all other makes to up their game every so often with significant design changes inside and out. I think Tesla is meeting its buyer expectations, the quality mightn’t be what I’d expect but who am I to judge an almost frantic fan base as the rest of the world now swept up in all things Tesla. Those sales are creating their own atmosphere in spite of whatever other manufacturers do. Tesla sales are only limited by their ability to produce vehicles, they are a long way from buyers wanting something different. Yes, Tesla will eventually need to do a visual exterior and interior upgrade but something that’s done on the fly with new trims, nose and tail changes, changes that have little affect on production. Edited August 31, 2022 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) I’m not a Tesla fan but even I can see that their expansion of new global plants is feeding an increasing amount of buyers. This is really bad news for premium brands that basically rely on a default return buyer base that may no longer exist. It might take a year or so of Texas and Berlin production and sales to show this but it’s looking like Euro brands like BMW and MB could be in real trouble… Edited August 31, 2022 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, jpd80 said: I’m not a Tesla fan but even I can see that their expansion of new global plants is feeding an increasing amount of buyers. This is really bad news for premium brands that basically rely on a default return buyer base that may no longer exist. It might take a year or so of Texas and Berlin production and sales to show this but it’s looking like Euro brands like BMW and MB could be in real trouble… You are correct jpd80. In fact, BMW and Mercedes-Benz are already facing real trouble in terms of competition from Tesla. 3 years ago, the president of Sonic Automotive (5th largest franchised new car dealership group in the U.S.) said that its luxury car franchises, particularly BMW but Mercedes-Benz to a lesser extent too, were hit hard by customer defections to Tesla. There’s no question. I mean … they’re calling out to sell well over 300,000 cars this year, they sold a lot of cars last year. I can tell you that I’ve spent a lot of time in manufacturer meetings, and five years ago, Tesla was just not even a real big topic, and today it’s the top of everybody’s board, and it needs to be. Competition from Tesla has become even more intense for BMW and Mercedes since then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 3 hours ago, jpd80 said: Under the skin, Tesla introduced gigacastings to the 3 and eliminated a ton of individual parts and welding. Tesla’s 3 and Y are still relatively young vehicles and world wide sales continue to increase, more for the Y of course as people prefer utilities but the compact car still sells astonishingly well. The point is they aren’t updating the designs (which so far has saved them a ton of money) but they have to do that sooner or later or risk losing sales. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Tesla has a built in loyalty as they have been the only game in town for the past 10 years. In the next two years there will considerable more competition and product that rivals or exceeds what they offer. They will be attacked from both Luxury as well as Volume players. The question is Tesla a luxury manufacturer or are they a mass market brand? What Tesla has though is direct to consumer which is a huge advantage in the cost structure. The past two years has made people HATE dealerships more than ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, jasonj80 said: Tesla has a built in loyalty as they have been the only game in town for the past 10 years. In the next two years there will considerable more competition and product that rivals or exceeds what they offer. They will be attacked from both Luxury as well as Volume players. The question is Tesla a luxury manufacturer or are they a mass market brand? What Tesla has though is direct to consumer which is a huge advantage in the cost structure. The past two years has made people HATE dealerships more than ever. The vulnerabilities of Tesla are the build quality and reliability. Luxury price without a true luxury look and feel. Styling is subjective, but to my eyes, look like a high school kid's drawing of a futuristic car, from about 1970. The no dealer distribution system is liked by buyers, and is a cost save. As more Tesla buyers become "regular" people without multiple extra vehicles, service will become a larger component of customer satisfaction. My experience with Ford dealers is that servicing is a strong point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, jasonj80 said: The question is Tesla a luxury manufacturer or are they a mass market brand? Currently Tesla is the premier American luxury car brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 The Model S is practically a modern panther, though the CV seemed to be updated more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 34 minutes ago, paintguy said: The vulnerabilities of Tesla are the build quality and reliability. Tesla automobiles generally have mediocre or subpar build quality and reliability, but that's always been the case. They're actually not vulnerabilities for the company because Tesla customers value other attributes of their cars and are more willing to forgive quality issues compared to customers of Lexus or Genesis for example that emphasize build quality and reliability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, akirby said: The point is they aren’t updating the designs (which so far has saved them a ton of money) but they have to do that sooner or later or risk losing sales. With respect Tesla and their buyers are not behaving like your regular buyers and yes, as I said, there will be upgrades but the point is that those buyers value battery and tech upgrades more than changing appearance every two or three years. Whatever visible upgrades are planned for the 3 and Y, you can be sure that the change will be easier rolling changes, not a complete factory shutdown gut and reload. This time next year, Tesla will be close to Ford’s entire US sales with similar profit thanks to premium prices and by the time those upgrades are required, Tesla will have more than enough cash to spend on the 3 and Y. Edited September 1, 2022 by jpd80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 9 hours ago, rperez817 said: Currently Tesla is the premier American luxury car brand. I’ll put my Lincoln Nautilus up against a Model Y for luxury any day of the week and twice on Saturday. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 9 hours ago, rperez817 said: Tesla automobiles generally have mediocre or subpar build quality and reliability, but that's always been the case. They're actually not vulnerabilities for the company because Tesla customers value other attributes of their cars and are more willing to forgive quality issues compared to customers of Lexus or Genesis for example that emphasize build quality and reliability. Those buyers who don’t care are a relatively small group and will get smaller as other mfrs produce competitive EVs. Tesla was the only game in town and Musk has a cult following. That won’t be sustainable with competition. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 11 hours ago, jasonj80 said: Tesla has a built in loyalty as they have been the only game in town for the past 10 years. In the next two years there will considerable more competition and product that rivals or exceeds what they offer. They will be attacked from both Luxury as well as Volume players. The question is Tesla a luxury manufacturer or are they a mass market brand? What Tesla has though is direct to consumer which is a huge advantage in the cost structure. The past two years has made people HATE dealerships more than ever. Can't they be both? Mass market quality vehicles with luxury prices. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlghtjr90 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 43 minutes ago, Gurgeh said: Can't they be both? Mass market quality vehicles with luxury prices. One could argue Ford is getting there for some vehicles.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 24 minutes ago, dlghtjr90 said: One could argue Ford is getting there for some vehicles.. That's correct dlghtjr90, Ford has in fact combined mass market quality with luxury prices for several models over the years (both Ford and Lincoln brands) and still does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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