dlghtjr90 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) One thing I can respect about Tesla is their Supercharger network and may be well-prepared from competition despite some questionable vehicle attributes and quality. The Electrify America and Chargepoint chargers can be a pain in the butt to get started, certainly much more cumbersome than Supercharger's plug-and-go, and seems to have increasing number of stations that are broken with no particular motivation or incentive to repair them. For the Supercharger, since it is directly owned by Tesla, having broken stations are directly tied to their brand reputation which seems to be enough motivation for proper maintenance. The easy and most effective solution would be more competition similar to gas stations today (i.e. if one gas station has half of their broken gas pumps, then you go to another one), and another reason that electric vehicles still have some ways to go before becoming mainstream. Edited September 1, 2022 by dlghtjr90 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, dlghtjr90 said: The Electrify America and Chargepoint chargers can be a pain in the butt to get started, certainly much more cumbersome than Supercharger's plug-and-go, and seems to have increasing number of stations that are broken with no particular motivation or incentive to repair them. For the Supercharger, since it is directly owned by Tesla, having broken stations are directly tied to their brand reputation which seems to be enough motivation for proper maintenance. Having used both EA DCFC stations and Tesla Superchargers, that's an accurate summary dlghtjr90. It's reflected in J.D. Power's latest EVX Public Charging Study as well. For Ford, improving the public charging experience for its BEV customers may entail working more closely with service providers like EA and ChargePoint, or better yet, establishing its own network of EV charging stations optimized for Ford EV but compatible with EV from other manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlghtjr90 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Kinda amazing how EVgo can somehow be worse than EA. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, akirby said: Those buyers who don’t care are a relatively small group and will get smaller as other mfrs produce competitive EVs. Tesla was the only game in town and Musk has a cult following. That won’t be sustainable with competition. With respect, Tesla is still the only game in town for a lot of potential buyers, the alternative offering are either relatively low volume or simply lacking the performance or battery range of the 3 or Y - Mach E is the exception but Ford have real problems ramping up production. It’s like Tesla is on a “golden rush” to get sales domination in compact BEVs before other manufacturers can get going. That has to be a major objective in making things harder for the competition, getting those eager buyers before there’s even alternatives to consider. I should have lead with this, I’ll be the first to admit that Tesla can’t keep pedalling the same appearing 3 and Y for years and years but I suspect they will do a sneaky upgrade to the nose, tail and interior that will satisfy many of their buyers, those people seem to look past a lot of deficiencies that if present other brands would result in much harsher criticism. So there is a bit of a bubble much as there was/is with BMW being almost like a fashion accessory to be seen in regardless of quality issues… Edited September 1, 2022 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) All Ford/Lincoln in my driveway, from 60s up to current, and I'd say Ford is in a solid (but distant, currently) 2nd place... but you're delusional if you think anyone is close to Tesla in the overall BEV market (sales, manufacturing, charging network, software, hardware, reputation). I also think the Cybertruck is hideous if that helps you believe I'm not an Elon troll, lol Edit: and a Mazda3, forgot about that one. Needs a TCM if anyone has one ? Edited September 1, 2022 by Captainp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 On 9/1/2022 at 8:33 AM, akirby said: I’ll put my Lincoln Nautilus up against a Model Y for luxury any day of the week and twice on Saturday. The Model Y would win any day of the week and twice on Saturday because nowadays luxury cars are more about software, UX, and system integration, the very things where Tesla excels. Jim Farley understands this well, and mentioned the following in his interview with Newsweek regarding Lincoln. To See the Future of Lincoln, Ford CEO Says to Look to China (newsweek.com) Farley doesn't see the traditional structure of trim levels as being the path forward when it comes to unlocking superior levels of luxury. "What is a premium iPhone? Is it gold? No. Software is a differentiator of customer experience," he said. "Look, we're both wearing Apple Watches," Farley said, holding up his wrist, "We probably love our analog watches, but what makes a premium Apple Watch or iPhone? It's not the physical form. When we go digital the 'premiumness' comes from different things rather than the physical body structure. It will come from software. So, everything has to be impeccably done, and done within your narrow brand. "Now it's going to be our software, our autonomous features. Customers are wealthier in Lincoln so yes, I'm going to push our team saying, 'Yes, I want our most advanced partial autonomy system in a Lincoln. I want the very best display technology, the best integration of all of this complicated information coming into the car now.' ... The Lincoln team is going to have to integrate those things to make them so seamless that it's not a problem for customers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 21 minutes ago, rperez817 said: The Model Y would win any day of the week and twice on Saturday because nowadays luxury cars are more about software Bullshit. You can’t redefine something to suit your narrative. Luxury is appearance, material quality, design, ergonomics and features. Name a luxury feature that Tesla has that Lincoln doesn’t other than the intentionally mislabeled and dangerous auto pilot. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 57 minutes ago, rperez817 said: The Model Y would win any day of the week and twice on Saturday because nowadays luxury cars are more about software, UX, and system integration, the very things where Tesla excels. Jim Farley understands this well, and mentioned the following in his interview with Newsweek regarding Lincoln. To See the Future of Lincoln, Ford CEO Says to Look to China (newsweek.com) So you're telling me that if Chevy brought back the old (Geo) Metro and loaded it up with the greatest software, UX, and system integration while keeping the same crappy 3 cylinder engine and manual transmission along with the trashy cloth seats that it would suddenly become a luxury car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 21 minutes ago, fordmantpw said: So you're telling me that if Chevy brought back the old (Geo) Metro and loaded it up with the greatest software, UX, and system integration while keeping the same crappy 3 cylinder engine and manual transmission along with the trashy cloth seats that it would suddenly become a luxury car? Why do I badly want this to happen? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 1 hour ago, akirby said: Name a luxury feature that Tesla has that Lincoln doesn’t other than the intentionally mislabeled and dangerous auto pilot. Tesla has the best software defined in-car tech experience in the business, which is one reason it's the premier American luxury car brand nowadays. Lincoln has a long way to go before it comes anywhere close to where Tesla is today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 Technology features are only one piece of the luxury formula. 24-way adjustable seats with massage, heating and cooling? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 32 minutes ago, akirby said: Technology features are only one piece of the luxury formula. That's true, but those features have become the biggest part of the luxury formula in the past few years and will become even more prominent in the future. Automotive industry analyst Michelle Krebs said a couple years ago that technology features have become the deciding factor for car buyers selecting a vehicle, especially among high-end and luxury buyers. This is why Jim Farley is so keen on deploying the "very best, seamless, impeccably done" digital technologies and features to Lincoln vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 23 minutes ago, rperez817 said: That's true, but those features have become the biggest part of the luxury formula in the past few years and will become even more prominent in the future. Automotive industry analyst Michelle Krebs said a couple years ago that technology features have become the deciding factor for car buyers selecting a vehicle, especially among high-end and luxury buyers. This is why Jim Farley is so keen on deploying the "very best, seamless, impeccably done" digital technologies and features to Lincoln vehicles. The technology features are especially appealing to the younger, technology savvy demographic. They're unappealing and irrelevant to the more mature customers that might have trouble dealing with the less advanced features such as SYNC, FordPass, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 Well it’s a good thing Lincoln has plenty of tech features to go along with the tactile luxury features. Tesla has a lead for now in technology but it’s not a big lead especially now that Lincoln has Lincoln Glide and OTA updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 30 minutes ago, akirby said: Well it’s a good thing Lincoln has plenty of tech features to go along with the tactile luxury features. Tesla has a lead for now in technology but it’s not a big lead especially now that Lincoln has Lincoln Glide and OTA updates. Lincoln, Tesla and other OEM"s can introduce all the technology they want, but it all comes at a price(s) that serve and appeal to an increasingly limited customer base that can afford it. Part of it is a reflection of the current economic state with inflation we haven't seen in 40 years, another part being the technology and supply chain issues at substantially increased costs, budget constraints by consumers impacted by the current economic situation, inflated new and pre-owned vehicle prices caused by reduced inventory and the supply vs. demand equation, limited impact of BEV incentives as tax credits vs. actual price reductions/rebates, BEV charging infrastructure limitations, BEV technology advancements that are either in development or won't be available for years resulting in economies at scale, delayed BEV availability until new BEV (Batteries, etc.) plants are bult and open for production, etc. All these factors are in addition of the political decisions being made to appear being politically correct without the advanced BEV technology, infrastructure or affordability being available to produce the sales and production goals stated. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 2 hours ago, rperez817 said: Tesla has the best software defined in-car tech experience in the business, which is one reason it's the premier American luxury car brand nowadays. Lincoln has a long way to go before it comes anywhere close to where Tesla is today. I can attest that Porsche's PCM is really horrible piece of hot garbage. But the cars are still awesome. ? Getting the tech experience right in cars is not easy for traditional OEM because they are not thinking like software companies. That's what Farley means in that article. The user interface is as important, if not more than the drivetrain or exterior design. Traditional OEM treats the user interface software as an add on funtion for the most part but that is actually how most people interact and experience their cars. On the other hand, Taycan now outsells Model S - Tesla cannot escape the gravity of market forces. Even if Tesla has the best tech expereicne, it can still get spanked by a brand with the worst tech experience. Leaving a car unchanged for 10+ years despite powertrain and software update is not going to cut it when the traditional OEM starts building competitive EV in volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 41 minutes ago, bzcat said: I can attest that Porsche's PCM is really horrible piece of hot garbage. But the cars are still awesome. ? Getting the tech experience right in cars is not easy for traditional OEM because they are not thinking like software companies. That's what Farley means in that article. The user interface is as important, if not more than the drivetrain or exterior design. Traditional OEM treats the user interface software as an add on funtion for the most part but that is actually how most people interact and experience their cars. On the other hand, Taycan now outsells Model S - Tesla cannot escape the gravity of market forces. Even if Tesla has the best tech expereicne, it can still get spanked by a brand with the worst tech experience. Leaving a car unchanged for 10+ years despite powertrain and software update is not going to cut it when the traditional OEM starts building competitive EV in volume. yeah, Tesla has left Model S the same way too long. They just gave it a new dash, but I don’t think that’s enough. the same is going to happen to the 3 and y if they’re not careful. And I think regular buyers will switch brands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 1 hour ago, rmc523 said: yeah, Tesla has left Model S the same way too long. They just gave it a new dash, but I don’t think that’s enough. the same is going to happen to the 3 and y if they’re not careful. And I think regular buyers will switch brands. The high loyalty rating for Tesla is reflective of two things: 1. Early EV adopter are largely satisfied 2. First time luxury brand buyers tends to be more loyal than repeat luxury brand buyers - this makes sense if you think about the investment, both monetary and emotional that people out into buying their first premium car. And Tesla has a lot of first time luxury brand buyers upgrading from mainstream brands. Both of these groups are likely to purchase another Tesla. But it is transitory... eventually when Tesla's owner base consist of repeat EV and repeat luxury brand owners, the loyalty number will drop. But the question for other car companies is when will that happen? Because in order for Tesla's owner base to be full of repeat luxury brand buyers, it means they have to lose a bunch more customers to Tesla first. Chicken and egg... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 Top 3 conquests for F150 Lightning are Ram and two Teslas. I’m sure Mach-E has plenty as well. A big part of Tesla’s early appeal was the large touchscreen. It was nothing more than a giant smartphone you could drive. That will only last so long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 2 hours ago, bzcat said: The high loyalty rating for Tesla is reflective of two things: 1. Early EV adopter are largely satisfied 2. First time luxury brand buyers tends to be more loyal than repeat luxury brand buyers - this makes sense if you think about the investment, both monetary and emotional that people out into buying their first premium car. And Tesla has a lot of first time luxury brand buyers upgrading from mainstream brands. Both of these groups are likely to purchase another Tesla. But it is transitory... eventually when Tesla's owner base consist of repeat EV and repeat luxury brand owners, the loyalty number will drop. But the question for other car companies is when will that happen? Because in order for Tesla's owner base to be full of repeat luxury brand buyers, it means they have to lose a bunch more customers to Tesla first. Chicken and egg... ? sure, I’m not disagreeing. But if all their vehicles stay unchanged for 10+ years at a time, that’s eventually going to bite them when competitors continue to enter the market AND follow the usual refresh cadence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 4 hours ago, akirby said: Well it’s a good thing Lincoln has plenty of tech features to go along with the tactile luxury features. Tesla has a lead for now in technology but it’s not a big lead especially now that Lincoln has Lincoln Glide and OTA updates. FSD has so much data and real world testing from the beta program, I don't see how anyone can catch up before it's fully functional at this point. Are the Ford and GM systems even active yet? Don't get me wrong, I was very skeptical of FSD in the beginning (still think it could be a huge liability with the right lawyer and right court), but it just keeps getting better with every release. I don't think any "legacy" manufacturer has the balls to say "this is a beta program, buy it if you want and let us test it on you", but I don't see any other way to get any kind of self driving off the ground.. there aren't enough people in the companies to get that kind of data even if you gave it to every single employee with a legal agreement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 25 minutes ago, Captainp4 said: FSD has so much data and real world testing from the beta program, I don't see how anyone can catch up before it's fully functional at this point. Are the Ford and GM systems even active yet? Don't get me wrong, I was very skeptical of FSD in the beginning (still think it could be a huge liability with the right lawyer and right court), but it just keeps getting better with every release. I don't think any "legacy" manufacturer has the balls to say "this is a beta program, buy it if you want and let us test it on you", but I don't see any other way to get any kind of self driving off the ground.. there aren't enough people in the companies to get that kind of data even if you gave it to every single employee with a legal agreement. Even the biggest FSD proponents have admitted it’s not feasible outside of specific controlled environments. That’s why it’s been so quiet. What we have now with it being a driver aid is probably where it will stay for the foreseeable future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 22 minutes ago, akirby said: Even the biggest FSD proponents have admitted it’s not feasible outside of specific controlled environments. That’s why it’s been so quiet. What we have now with it being a driver aid is probably where it will stay for the foreseeable future. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that, it's also updated (OTA) fairly regularly and gets better every time. Up to version 10.69.2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 53 minutes ago, Captainp4 said: FSD has so much data and real world testing from the beta program, I don't see how anyone can catch up before it's fully functional at this point. Are the Ford and GM systems even active yet? Don't get me wrong, I was very skeptical of FSD in the beginning (still think it could be a huge liability with the right lawyer and right court), but it just keeps getting better with every release. I don't think any "legacy" manufacturer has the balls to say "this is a beta program, buy it if you want and let us test it on you", but I don't see any other way to get any kind of self driving off the ground.. there aren't enough people in the companies to get that kind of data even if you gave it to every single employee with a legal agreement. that’s because Tesla is often treated with kid gloves, whereas traditional manufacturers would be skewered for doing something like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 44 minutes ago, Captainp4 said: Are the Ford and GM systems even active yet? Ford said in its August 2022 sales press release that Ford BlueCruise and Lincoln ActiveGlide had "more than 16 million hands-free miles accumulated". As you noted, Tesla FSD has much more data and real-world testing by comparison. Ford does have an extensive Level 4 robotaxi testing operation going on nowadays through its Argo AI business unit. Currently, Ford is the first company in the world to test driverless vehicles in 2 U.S. cities simultaneously (Austin and Miami). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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