California Regulators Request EV Charge Pause Over Labor Day Weekend

[Harley Lover]

This is with EV sales at the current rate. I wonder what California's plan is as EV sales accelerate through the decade: 

 

Quote

In a notice posted Wednesday, Cal ISO urged residents to set thermostats at 78 degrees, avoid the use of larger electronics, turn off unnecessary lights and avoid charging electric vehicles.

“Reducing energy use during a Flex Alert can help stabilize the power grid during tight supply conditions and prevent further emergency measures, including rotating power outages,” the announcement said. 

The California Independent System Operator issued a statewide Flex Alert Wednesday. 

 

https://www.kpvi.com/news/national_news/california-regulators-request-ev-charge-pause-energy-conservation-for-heat/article_22d2aa01-c59d-5d32-814e-96126fabe653.html

Edited September 1, 2022 by Harley Lover

[rperez817]

48 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

This is with EV sales at the current rate. I wonder what California's plan is as EV sales accelerate through the decade: 

 

As EV sales accelerate through the decade, they can help improve electric grid resiliency especially through the implementation of bidirectional BEV charging technologies on the vehicles themselves and by utility companies.

 

Since this is in the Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum, a good example from Ford is their collaboration with PG&E (one of the utilities using the CAISO grid) doing field testing of F-150 Lightning's Intelligent Backup Power feature for customers' homes in the PG&E service area. PG&E Corporation - PG&E and Ford Collaborate on Bidirectional Electric Vehicle Charging Technology in Customers’ Homes (pgecorp.com)

[.I.]

California will ban ICE vehicles sales by 2035. But, today, can’t support the charge of the EVs currently on the roads.    ?????????

[j2sys]

All this says is to avoid charging during peak times to spread out demand which isn't new and should be done anyway (home charging with time of use rates where available) but is particularly important with the temps they forecast for the weekend.

 

9p-4p leaves just under 80% of the day where they're not even asking you not to charge your EV.

 

Seems reasonable to me since no matter how much you scale the grid, the most efficient system requires demand spread out evenly throughout the day, thus the existence of time-o-use plans.  Otherwise, you need to turn to "peaker plants" that are much less efficient and thus costly.

Edited September 1, 2022 by j2sys

[fordmantpw]

37 minutes ago, j2sys said:

All this says is to avoid charging during peak times to spread out demand which isn't new and should be done anyway (home charging with time of use rates where available) but is particularly important with the temps they forecast for the weekend.

 

9p-4p leaves just under 80% of the day where they're not even asking you not to charge your EV.

 

Seems reasonable to me since no matter how much you scale the grid, the most efficient system requires demand spread out evenly throughout the day, thus the existence of time-o-use plans.  Otherwise, you need to turn to "peaker plants" that are much less efficient and thus costly.

 

But, what happens when you add all the additional electric vehicles CA is going to require in the next 15-20 years?  Without substantial investment in the generation and transmission sectors, there is no way they will be able to supply the power to charge all those vehicles.  And if everyone charges their car in the 9p-4p timeframe, guess what...that then becomes peak time.

[rperez817]

38 minutes ago, j2sys said:

Seems reasonable to me since no matter how much you scale the grid, the most efficient system requires demand spread out evenly throughout the day, thus the existence of time-o-use plans.  Otherwise, you need to turn to "peaker plants" that are much less efficient and thus costly.

 

Good description of TOU, j2sys. I have that type of electric billing plan. It works perfectly for at home charging of my and my wife's BEV (Model S and Mustang Mach-E). We've programmed both cars to only charge during off-peak hours at home and that has never presented an issue.

[j2sys]

40 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

 

But, what happens when you add all the additional electric vehicles CA is going to require in the next 15-20 years?  Without substantial investment in the generation and transmission sectors, there is no way they will be able to supply the power to charge all those vehicles.  And if everyone charges their car in the 9p-4p timeframe, guess what...that then becomes peak time.

 

I don't claim it'll be an easy or smooth transition, but yes, clearly investment is needed to increase capacity, but also to reduce demand overall through efficiency programs.  When overall demand increases, you obviously can increase capacity at your normal plants, the ones that operate most efficiently, minimizing the need for those peaker plants.  (Mind you, there are alternatives to those, too, such as lithium ion battery and other stored energy systems, but that's a whole other discussion).

 

Peak demand on the hottest days is boosted in large part by increased use of AC.  In reality, it's probably not best to charge a large lithium ion battery, especially outside, during the hottest time of day.  That's not great for the battery and requires even more cooling just to keep the battery cool enough while you shove more energy into it.

 

If 80% of the day (9p-4p) is the new "peak", then it sounds like demand has been spread out pretty well...

[fuzzymoomoo]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[fordmantpw]

1 hour ago, j2sys said:

When overall demand increases, you obviously can increase capacity at your normal plants, the ones that operate most efficiently, minimizing the need for those peaker plants.  (Mind you, there are alternatives to those, too, such as lithium ion battery and other stored energy systems, but that's a whole other discussion).

 

You can't just increase capacity at your normal plants with the flip of a switch.  Demand has increased, hence the rotating power outages.  If it was easy to increase capacity, don't you think they would have done that already?

 

I just think it's comical that CA can't supply enough power today, yet they are requiring the switch to electric vehicles in the future.  Very short-sided, but, of course, typical for the CA way of (non) thinking.

[HotRunrGuy]

Did anybody actually bother to read the article? 5 hour window, NOT 19.

 

HRG

[silvrsvt]

27 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

Did anybody actually bother to read the article? 5 hour window, NOT 19.

 

HRG

 

Nope everyone wants to get hysterical over something they don't agree with or have any knowledge about because its the internet. 

[j2sys]

43 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

Did anybody actually bother to read the article? 5 hour window, NOT 19.

 

HRG

 

I did and pointed out that still leaves almost 80% of the day...

 

46 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

 

You can't just increase capacity at your normal plants with the flip of a switch.  Demand has increased, hence the rotating power outages.  If it was easy to increase capacity, don't you think they would have done that already?

 

I just think it's comical that CA can't supply enough power today, yet they are requiring the switch to electric vehicles in the future.  Very short-sided, but, of course, typical for the CA way of (non) thinking.

 

Californian electrical utilities are notoriously bad at maintaining their infrastructure.  See the PGE bankruptcy and related mess, including the fires they caused through their incompetence.  Leadership of the state has the right intentions but needs to do a better job of managing electrical utilities along the way.

 

If you're looking to stretch this into an anti-EV narrative, the future will be waiting for you when you're ready.

Edited September 1, 2022 by j2sys

[akirby]

26 minutes ago, j2sys said:

 

If you're looking to stretch this into an anti-EV narrative, the future will be waiting for you when you're ready.

You might want to ask where fordmantpw works before jumping to conclusions..,..

[j2sys]

27 minutes ago, akirby said:

You might want to ask where fordmantpw works before jumping to conclusions..,..

 

The line you quoted made no assumptions and jumped to no conclusions...?

[silvrsvt]

37 minutes ago, j2sys said:

 

The line you quoted made no assumptions and jumped to no conclusions...?

 

TLDR

 

He works in the power generation industry....LOL

 

Simple as that. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, j2sys said:

 

The line you quoted made no assumptions and jumped to no conclusions...?

You all but accused him of being anti-EV when all he was doing is giving you first hand knowledge about the industry and power plants.

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Nope everyone wants to get hysterical over something they don't agree with or have any knowledge about because its the internet. 

 

In another thread topic, bzcat addressed the myth that the U.S. needs a huge increase in electrical generating capacity to accommodate the growth of BEV. Link below.

 

[j2sys]

35 minutes ago, akirby said:

You all but accused him of being anti-EV when all he was doing is giving you first hand knowledge about the industry and power plants.

 

That wasn't remotely an accusation.  You're the one making accusations.  I thought this was a discussion, not a throwing of accusations.

[fordmantpw]

1 hour ago, j2sys said:

If you're looking to stretch this into an anti-EV narrative, the future will be waiting for you when you're ready.

 

I'm not anti-EV at all! I'm a proponent, and almost ordered a Mach-E (went for the Escape instead as my wife wasn't quite ready to go all electric).  Think about what California is saying:

 

"We can't supply the power to let our customers charge their cars when they want, so let's require more cars that we can't charge!"

 

That's not me being anti-EV, that's just me trying to bring common sense into the equation.

 

PS...to akirby's point, I work at a nuke plant, generating electricity for these electric cars.  Electric cars are good for my 401(k)!

[tbone]

7 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Nope everyone wants to get hysterical over something they don't agree with or have any knowledge about because its the internet. 

You mean kind of like this…

 

7 hours ago, j2sys said:

If you're looking to stretch this into an anti-EV narrative, the future will be waiting for you when you're ready.

 

[rampagex7]

11 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Since this is in the Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum, a good example from Ford is their collaboration with PG&E (one of the utilities using the CAISO grid) doing field testing of F-150 Lightning's Intelligent Backup Power feature for customers' homes in the PG&E service area. PG&E Corporation - PG&E and Ford Collaborate on Bidirectional Electric Vehicle Charging Technology in Customers’ Homes (pgecorp.com)

 

As a new proud owner of a new F-150 lightning, I was playing around with the Pro Power On Board this afternoon and just for fun decided to try charging two other EV's using the 240V outlet in the bed with an L14-30 adapter and the Ford mobile charger.  It worked absolutely perfectly, I had my 2020 Aviator charging first and it went right up to its max charge rate of 16A within seconds and I let that run for 15 minutes and it didn't even drop the SOC on the Lighting it stayed at 62% in that time.  Then I plugged in the 2022 Mach-E and that took about a minute to ramp up to the 30A max that the Lightning could provide and then held it there at max output.  I left the Mach-E plugged in to the Lightning for 30 minutes and in that time the SOC on the Lightning dropped 2% from 62% to 60% and the SOC on the Mach-E went up from 39% to 43%.

 

So for anyone in California that needs to charge their EVs and can't plug them into the grid during the Flex Alert period, as a last resort, they can find someone with an F-150 Lighting that has a relatively full battery and is willing to share some juice.  I can confirm it works!  Jim Farley did say at the press launch event for the Lightning that you can use it to charge other EVs, especially Teslas......

[rampagex7]

10 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Good description of TOU, j2sys. I have that type of electric billing plan. It works perfectly for at home charging of my and my wife's BEV (Model S and Mustang Mach-E). We've programmed both cars to only charge during off-peak hours at home and that has never presented an issue.

 

Yes I do the same thing here in Toronto.  We've had TOU electricity pricing for many years and it is great for EV charging at night because the rates are almost half from 7pm to 7am from the daytime peak rate.  To charge up one of our Mach-Es from 30% - 90% SOC overnight costs like $4.80 whereas if I charge it up at work during the day at the peak rate the same charging session would cost about $8.50.

 

The key to tackling the rise in the number of EVs in the future being connected to the grid is load management.  You don't need to plug in and start charging your EV the minute you get home from work at 5:30pm when there is peak demand on the grid from A/C usage and cooking.  Most EVs and/or EVSEs (charging stations) have software built in that schedule and defer charging times to off peak hours overnight which will both cost less to the consumer (if they have TOU utility pricing) and shift demand on the grid to off peak hours when there is more capacity is available.  Will there be a need for upgrades to utility infrastructure in the future, absolutely, but it is certainly not solely attributable to the increasing number of EVs on the road now and coming in the future.

[mkizlvr]

I have been a member of this forum since I was about 13. I’m now 30 ???? 

I really never post. I just come here to read. But this thread is ridiculous. I have owned 3 plug in vehicles. A  Fusion energi, fiat 500e, and I now have a Mach E. I still have all of these vehicles in our family. Dad- maverick hybrid,  mom- cmax energi, grandma- cmax, boyfriend- Hyundai ioniq…. Etc. I have experience with all of the maintenance and issues, or lack there of for the most part. People who don’t live here in CA act ridiculous when they read this BS. It’s not unusual to charge charge between the hours of 9pm-4pm the next day! As others here have mentioned. It’s not that complicated. All of our cars have been overall flawless and have required almost no maintaince. I’ll keep enjoying this more responsible life style that’s so much more convenient, financially beneficial, and overall just a better driving experience. I am just so giddy as to all policies and legislation that are getting through very recently. Something needs to happen. Better late than never. And better something than nothing. But hey, maybe I’m just more “radical” ?

Edited September 2, 2022 by akirby
Political jab

[mkizlvr]

Luckily. My Mach e will last more than enough though the entire weekend. All the other cars except the fiat 500e will be perfectly fine. But honestly it could get by. But I can just charge it after 9pm.  Again. Not a big deal. But if I have to sacrifice a weekend to just not charge it. So be it. This is our reality. Climate change is not a joke. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by mkizlvr
Sentence misspelled

[Joe771476]

The ultimate goal of govt. is mass transit. Humans are using up -- actually wasting -- resources at a phenomenal rate!  They're buying stuff they don't need.  I hate to tell you, but manufacturers of appliances to cars, trucks watercraft, rail cars and aircraft could all close for two years and all the needs of consumers could be met by all these new products sitting in warehouses, store shelves, car dealer lots , etc! But they keep making this stuff because people want to eat!  How much fossil fuel, iron ore, aluminum, lithium etc. is left in the ground?  Who knows?  I think you'll see gasoline/diesel/jet fuel being conserved and saved for applications like fire truck pumpers and aircraft engines where electric power just won't cut it.  Eventually only the rich will be able to fly, just like when air travel began.