Hybrid/AWD Dead for Next Gen Mustang

[mustang84isu]

8 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im not so sure of that. I see plenty of people my age or younger driving Mustangs, usually either a fox body or S550. Hell, my carpool mate just ordered one, it gets built on the 26th and he's younger than me. Traded his Porsche for it. 

I'm in a Facebook group for underappreciated survivor cars (stuff built between 73-03) and there are a surprising amount of younger millennials and zoomers in that group that own 80's and 90's sedans and coupes and are fascinated by all the long-gone brands such as Olds, Mercury, and Plymouth.  The problem is that these younger guys just don't have the money for a new vehicle, which is why they are buying these low-mile and babied cars from a few decades ago.  The new car market is going the wrong way for them.  And the ones that ARE buying new like the ones in this video below are digging their own graves financially.

The Maverick is such a hit for Ford because it's one of the first reasonably priced vehicles that young and old alike can easily afford, and it's well-designed...not just a cheap econobox.  As cars like the Mustang keep tipping toward being less affordable as they have been getting over time, they're naturally going to struggle to maintain that market share and interest among younger buyers.  I hate to cheapen the Mustang name, but maybe Ford should consider keeping the ICE Mustang beyond the late 2020's as a more stripped down & affordable model (Mustang Classic?), while the electric Mustang coupe fills the gaps at the higher end.  Unless BEV costs finally start tilting downward, you're going to continue to see names like the Mustang squeezed toward a smaller niche of buyers.

[Footballfan]

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Edited September 8, 2022 by Footballfan

[Footballfan]

1 hour ago, jasonj80 said:

That will be figured out just as ICE engines driving in extreme hot weather were. 30 years ago the freeways out west would look like they allowed parking with the number of vehicles pulled over in heat like they have had the past week. No more blasting the heat  in 100 degree + temps so you might make it over the top of the mountain or pass without over heating. Now 7000lbs of trailer behind you a/c on full blast and the temp gauge might go up a needle in the middle of the afternoon.

 

It’s not if the Mustang Coupe/Convertible  will be electric, it is when. The question will be what is first to market the Mustang Coupe BEV or the Corvette SUV BEV.

I think the death of the ICE Mustang (as well as other ICE vehicles) are greatly exaggerated.  I think that both will coexist in the new car showrooms for at least 20 more years.

 

Regarding which will come first, the Corvette SUV will be coming out in 2025 while the Mustang electric is penciled in for 2030 at the earliest. 

[silvrsvt]

7 hours ago, Footballfan said:

I think the death of the ICE Mustang (as well as other ICE vehicles) are greatly exaggerated.  I think that both will coexist in the new car showrooms for at least 20 more years.

 

Well given the timelines of things and how the market is changing...outside of maybe some select things like a heavy duty truck that actually needs to pull something, I think your wrong.

 

20 years is a huge amount of time for what is basically an IT device. The only thing that is holding back BEVs is batteries and they'll have a host of different types in the next 10 years that make ICE obsolete for ever day use. 

 

This isn't the 1970s with 5-10 year development cycles-completely new platforms can be designed in 36 months vs what they did almost 50 years ago. 

[silvrsvt]

9 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

It’s not if the Mustang Coupe/Convertible  will be electric, it is when. The question will be what is first to market the Mustang Coupe BEV or the Corvette SUV BEV.

 

Hopefully sooner then later, given how the market is going to rapidly change in the next 8 years. I have no issue with them keeping the new ICE Mustang for 5 years to recoup the investment, but waiting till 2030 seems a bit shortsighted. 

[jasonj80]

29 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Hopefully sooner then later, given how the market is going to rapidly change in the next 8 years. I have no issue with them keeping the new ICE Mustang for 5 years to recoup the investment, but waiting till 2030 seems a bit shortsighted. 

This Mustang will probably be close to a 5 year cycle if not 4 then ICE put out to pasture, EU tax laws and CAFE will see to that. Post 2035 ICE is done, there already isn't development dollars being dumped in it where transmission and engine programs take 5-7 years. Killing the AWD, Hybrid (other models?) shows this Mustang became a stopgap before the fully electric one. The Mustang name will be dead if they wait until 2030 to make the switch.

[silvrsvt]

29 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

 The Mustang name will be dead if they wait until 2030 to make the switch.

 

Well you still have the Mach E ?

 

[ice-capades]

52 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Well you still have the Mach E ?

 

 

Yes, but the Mach-E is a BEV/CUV/SUV or whatever you want you want to call it. Even with the Mach-E GT, it's not a Mustang Coupe. And a 2-door coupe version of the Mach-E will not make it a suitable replacement for the traditional Mustang sports car regardless of the powertrain.  

[ehaase]

9 hours ago, Footballfan said:

I think the death of the ICE Mustang (as well as other ICE vehicles) are greatly exaggerated.  I think that both will coexist in the new car showrooms for at least 20 more years.

 

Regarding which will come first, the Corvette SUV will be coming out in 2025 while the Mustang electric is penciled in for 2030 at the earliest. 

 

The politicians in the big states which have enough electoral votes to determine who will be president won't allow ICE cars to continue. Life will be very hard for everyone that is poor or working or middle class. I see no evidence that the price of EV's will come down. I think Ford will be perfectly happy making EV F series and derivatives, Transit, Explorer, Ranger, Bronco, MME, and nothing else. 

[silvrsvt]

22 minutes ago, ehaase said:

 

The politicians in the big states which have enough electoral votes to determine who will be president won't allow ICE cars to continue. Life will be very hard for everyone that is poor or working or middle class. I see no evidence that the price of EV's will come down. I think Ford will be perfectly happy making EV F series and derivatives, Transit, Explorer, Ranger, Bronco, MME, and nothing else. 

 

Also keep in mind the average transaction price for a new car is almost $47K...and Mavericks are being sold with 10K plus ADMs on them...so there is something going on...may not be good, but other peoples finances aren't my concern.
The "upside" is that if pricing is that much of a concern, driving an ICE for a long period of time (15-20 years) should be doable if you keep up on maintenance. 

 

Also I'm thinking that even automakers don't want to have to add $6-8K year to year to products due to shortages/supply chain issues etc...they want things to be as stable as possible too. They also need to get pricing under control because it going to hurt them as much as it does the consumer...their will be eventual push back to pricing and they know it also. 

[ehaase]

24 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

, but other peoples finances aren't my concern.

 

That says it all. 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, ehaase said:

 

That says it all. 

 

People are stupid but apparently they can afford to be stupid too. I see zero reason to spend 10K extra on what is supposed to an entry level vehicle...

 

 

[fuzzymoomoo]

35 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

I see zero reason to spend 10K extra on any vehicle...

 
FTFY

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Yes, but the Mach-E is a BEV/CUV/SUV or whatever you want you want to call it. Even with the Mach-E GT, it's not a Mustang Coupe. And a 2-door coupe version of the Mach-E will not make it a suitable replacement for the traditional Mustang sports car regardless of the powertrain.  

[akirby]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

People are stupid but apparently they can afford to be stupid too. I see zero reason to spend 10K extra on what is supposed to an entry level vehicle...

The ones I’ve seen are only $5K markup on stock vehicles.  Most orders are still at MSRP.

[fordmantpw]

$8-10k markup for Mavericks around here.  If you can find them.

 

My parents have one that's supposed to be delivered in a few weeks.  It's a D plan or whatever salesman can get for family (my nephew is a salesman).  My dad had a Super Duty 4 months ago, sold the fifth wheel and moving into a Maverick.  Talk about a big change!

Edited September 8, 2022 by fordmantpw

[Tico]

23 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im not so sure of that. I see plenty of people my age or younger driving Mustangs, usually either a fox body or S550. Hell, my carpool mate just ordered one, it gets built on the 26th and he's younger than me. Traded his Porsche for it. 

You and your friend represent a small percentage of the 3500 to 5500 mustangs sold each month. The average buyer is in their 50s. In end the market is just not big enough to justify investing in this platform.  And there is a good chance it will get smaller as the muscle car market has been for decades now. 

[Footballfan]

17 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

This Mustang will probably be close to a 5 year cycle if not 4 then ICE put out to pasture, EU tax laws and CAFE will see to that. Post 2035 ICE is done, there already isn't development dollars being dumped in it where transmission and engine programs take 5-7 years. Killing the AWD, Hybrid (other models?) shows this Mustang became a stopgap before the fully electric one. The Mustang name will be dead if they wait until 2030 to make the switch.

 

18 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Hopefully sooner then later, given how the market is going to rapidly change in the next 8 years. I have no issue with them keeping the new ICE Mustang for 5 years to recoup the investment, but waiting till 2030 seems a bit shortsighted. 

 

18 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Well given the timelines of things and how the market is changing...outside of maybe some select things like a heavy duty truck that actually needs to pull something, I think your wrong.

 

20 years is a huge amount of time for what is basically an IT device. The only thing that is holding back BEVs is batteries and they'll have a host of different types in the next 10 years that make ICE obsolete for ever day use. 

 

This isn't the 1970s with 5-10 year development cycles-completely new platforms can be designed in 36 months vs what they did almost 50 years ago. 

Bottom line, successful companies will offer what the customer wants whether it be ICE or electric despite of what the politicians try to shove down people's throats.  The Asians and Stellantis are taking a more balanced approach instead of the "all or nothing" approach gm and now Ford is taking,  

 

Politicians can be "induced" to rewrite laws and modify rules as we have seen in the past.  gm and Ford are getting a lot of financial help from this administration.  However when a new admin comes in these companies will come up with a whole different strategy to match.  

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, Footballfan said:

The Asians and Stellantis are taking a more balanced approach instead of the "all or nothing" approach gm and now Ford is taking,  

 

The new Jeeps and everything else Stellantis is doing tells a completely different story then your saying.

 

Kia/Hyundai are jumping in feet first in the BEV bandwagon.

 

The Japanese look to be shooting themselves in the foot with the lack BEVs

[jasonj80]

7 hours ago, Footballfan said:

 

 

Bottom line, successful companies will offer what the customer wants whether it be ICE or electric despite of what the politicians try to shove down people's throats.  The Asians and Stellantis are taking a more balanced approach instead of the "all or nothing" approach gm and now Ford is taking,  

 

Politicians can be "induced" to rewrite laws and modify rules as we have seen in the past.  gm and Ford are getting a lot of financial help from this administration.  However when a new admin comes in these companies will come up with a whole different strategy to match.  

Politicians determine what you drive; they set the rules in which OEM must follow -- you might not like it or agree with it but that is what is happening and has happened for 50+ years. They have said CAFE is going to increase significantly post 2025 and it will, even if there is a change in leadership those plans are in place at the OEMs they'll just beat whatever the lower standard is. The only help they have gotten from this administration is fairly consistency rules across 50 states, which the previous administration could have done have also done had they passed laws to remove the exemption CA was granted in the 70's. 

 

Short of saying you can't build electric cars OEMs wouldn't change plans as they are 2-5 years into this switch.  OEMs are investing in electric as that is the ONLY way you will meet CAFE late in the decade, sell vehicles in 20+ states (with some of the largest populations) the EU and Asian. Stellates is full in on electric as well; they showed the first electric Jeeps. Unlike FCA, PSA was pretty far along with full electrification. Toyota is in catchup mode and spending tens of billions but like VW once they get there in the next 3-4 years they will be selling millions. Honda is using GM for their first Gen electrics because they were so far behind but R&D is now fully engaged and resources are being diverted from future ICE to Electric.  

The future is electric no matter what the talking heads on TV/Internet are trying to push, the talking heads in Washington are going to make sure of it. 

[slemke]

13 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The new Jeeps and everything else Stellantis is doing tells a completely different story then your saying.

 

Kia/Hyundai are jumping in feet first in the BEV bandwagon.

 

The Japanese look to be shooting themselves in the foot with the lack BEVs

Stellantis introduced a new I6, updated 8 speed auto, and committed to refining the hemi as long as it was feasible. 

Hyundai just updated the Pallisade ….still has the 3.8L v6.

Toyota just updated the Lexus RX350.  V6 was dropped, but a turbocharged 4 hybrid was added.

 

Seems balanced to me.  BEV is still in the early adopter phase with about 5% of the market.  It is rising quickly, but they have plenty of time.

Even GM with their so-called “all-in” approach isn’t all in.  They updated the 2.7L 4 cyl turbo, revised the 3.0L diesel, a 5.5L flat plane crank V8, etc.  They are updating the legacy products while introducing BEV at a quick pace.

 

Ford’s legacy products seem to be getting long in the tooth similar to the early 2000’s. Without continued updating, they will fall out of favor faster than Ford can replace them and there won’t be money for investment in BEV.  My fear is they will repeat the mistakes of that time period and not introduce leading BEV products that push the envelope or keep the legacy products fresh.

[silvrsvt]

7 hours ago, slemke said:

Stellantis introduced a new I6, updated 8 speed auto, and committed to refining the hemi as long as it was feasible. 

Hyundai just updated the Pallisade ….still has the 3.8L v6.

Toyota just updated the Lexus RX350.  V6 was dropped, but a turbocharged 4 hybrid was added.

 

Seems balanced to me.  BEV is still in the early adopter phase with about 5% of the market.  It is rising quickly, but they have plenty of time.

Even GM with their so-called “all-in” approach isn’t all in.  They updated the 2.7L 4 cyl turbo, revised the 3.0L diesel, a 5.5L flat plane crank V8, etc.  They are updating the legacy products while introducing BEV at a quick pace.

 

Ford’s legacy products seem to be getting long in the tooth similar to the early 2000’s. Without continued updating, they will fall out of favor faster than Ford can replace them and there won’t be money for investment in BEV.  My fear is they will repeat the mistakes of that time period and not introduce leading BEV products that push the envelope or keep the legacy products fresh.

 

All that work was done 3-5 years ago and is just coming out now. Keep in mind the auto industry is a long lead time-It takes time to design/test an engine then it takes time for sub manufactures to build parts for them. They can't just flip a switch and start building something complex in 6 months or so. 

[ice-capades]

Mustang Stampede - Teaser

[ausrutherford]

I imagine the ICE Mustang will live side-by-side with the EV Mustang for a few years. 

[rperez817]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:12 PM, GearheadGrrrl said:

While BEVs may be good for a hot lap, they have to cut back the power to protect themselves after as little as 5 seconds in the case of the Mach E GT. So for sustained performance, we're still gonna need ICE cars.

 

You are correct GearheadGrrrl that Mustang Mach-E GT performance degrades after the initial "hero run". Tesla Model S does this too. But this is not a limitation with BEV in general. Battery management algorithms can be programmed into BEV to ensure sustained performance. Porsche Taycan is a good example of a hi-po BEV with these algorithms. BEV muscle cars such as the upcoming Mustang Coupe/Convertible BEV and products from Stellantis and GM will almost certainly include them too.

 

Here is Car and Driver's test data doing 15 consecutive, max acceleration quarter mile runs in Taycan and Model S.