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Hybrid/AWD Dead for Next Gen Mustang


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On 9/8/2022 at 1:26 PM, Tico said:

In end the market is just not big enough to justify investing in this platform.  And there is a good chance it will get smaller as the muscle car market has been for decades now. 

 

Good points Tico. I wonder if Jim Farley will use "Mustang is an icon for Ford and for America" as a reason to justifying further investments for Mustang Coupe/Convertible long term. 

 

1 hour ago, ausrutherford said:

I imagine the ICE Mustang will live side-by-side with the EV Mustang for a few years. 

 

Probably 1 to 2 years maximum in terms of overlap. The superior performance BEV muscle cars combined with their sustainability will make ICE powered muscle cars obsolete as new car offerings. 

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Probably 1 to 2 years maximum in terms of overlap. The superior performance BEV muscle cars combined with their sustainability will make ICE powered muscle cars obsolete as new car offerings. 

 

Perez, you just don't get it.  BEV's are fighting nostalgia.  Many would rather drive this '67 Mustang than a Tesla Model 3.

 

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Edited by mackinaw
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2 hours ago, akirby said:

You really don’t understand mustang enthusiasts.

 

1 hour ago, mackinaw said:

Perez, you just don't get it.  BEV's are fighting nostalgia. 

 

My wife and I joined Mustang Club of America after we took delivery of our Mustang Mach-E. We didn't get the warmest welcome initially from Mustang enthusiasts that comprise that club, but things have improved since then. We've gone to meets for the North Texas Mustang Club chapter and encouraged members to test drive our Mustang Mach-E. Several have changed their attitude about BEV for the better afterward.

 

MCA's mission currently is "celebrating and growing the Mustang community". Without a successful transition to BEV, there will be no more future Mustangs from Ford. That means MCA would have to change its mission to "celebrating what's left of Mustang nostalgia".

 

I hope Ford is successful keeping the Mustang nameplate alive for decades to come, ideally as a 100% electric sub-brand encompassing Mach-E, coupe/convertible, and other form factors.

Edited by rperez817
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4 hours ago, akirby said:


You really don’t understand mustang enthusiasts.

The minority often is the loudest complainers. 
 

People just need to get some butt time in an EV and they’ll see the performance end of things isn’t an issue. Sound is subjective and really the only “advantage” a ICE has when it comes to having a performance advantage
 

There is way too much misinformation and misunderstanding about BEVs by the general public that you can’t get a real read…and people dislike change often to the point that they flip out becuase they think something is being taken away from them. 

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

The minority often is the loudest complainers. 
 

People just need to get some butt time in an EV and they’ll see the performance end of things isn’t an issue. Sound is subjective and really the only “advantage” a ICE has when it comes to having a performance advantage
 

There is way too much misinformation and misunderstanding about BEVs by the general public that you can’t get a real read…and people dislike change often to the point that they flip out becuase they think something is being taken away from them. 


But sound and the other subjective advantages of ICE is what the enthusiasts want.  Has nothing to do with absolute performance.  That’s why some still prefer 60s and 70s mustangs.  Of course it’s a small number of buyers but it’s enough for Ford to keep making high performance ICE mustangs and charging the enthusiasts appropriately until government forces them to stop.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, akirby said:


But sound and the other subjective advantages of ICE is what the enthusiasts want.  Has nothing to do with absolute performance.  That’s why some still prefer 60s and 70s mustangs.  Of course it’s a small number of buyers but it’s enough for Ford to keep making high performance ICE mustangs and charging the enthusiasts appropriately until government forces them to stop.

 

But Ecoboost mustangs make up something like 60-80% of sales..

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25 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But Ecoboost mustangs make up something like 60-80% of sales..


We’re clearly talking past each other lately.  I think it’s closer to 50%.

 

The question was whether there was a market for ICE mustangs to continue for a few more years and there clearly is albeit a small one.  But it’s enough for Ford to continue building them as an Icon with lots of special editions and higher price tags.  Not all Mustang enthusiasts want BEVs because it’s not about performance.

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At least one of the commenters pegged it- Offer the ICE and BEV Mustangs side by side so lovers of the ICE car don't get into the whole angry " they're taking it away" crusade. 

 

BMW lost me as a customer for years because first they tried to replace our beloved "airhead" twins with the much more complicated K bike and a few years later they killed off the classic Mini and then gave the Mini name to a grossly oversized cartoon of a Mini and then threatened suppliers of parts for the classic mini with trademark violation lawsuits. Best to offer both ICE and BEV models and let the customers choose.

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24 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But Ecoboost mustangs make up something like 60-80% of sales..

I am impressed and very satisfied with the 2.3L EcoBoost Four in my Ranger, but having been restricted to the 4cyl Mustang ll in my 20s (save the eyeball-flattening 140 hp 4.9L V8 Cobra), 4- and 6-cylinder Mustangs were for people that wore wingtips and tie tacks or bought them for their daughters. I could never buy a 4-banger 'Stang. The cadence and sound of a V8 is as much of the experience as the power produced. If it came down to it, I'd take a 140 hp V8 over an EcoBoost with half the displacement and cylinders and twice the horsepower; I'm sure I'm not alone, here.

 

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1 hour ago, Chrisgb said:

I am impressed and very satisfied with the 2.3L EcoBoost Four in my Ranger, but having been restricted to the 4cyl Mustang ll in my 20s (save the eyeball-flattening 140 hp 4.9L V8 Cobra), 4- and 6-cylinder Mustangs were for people that wore wingtips and tie tacks or bought them for their daughters. I could never buy a 4-banger 'Stang. The cadence and sound of a V8 is as much of the experience as the power produced. If it came down to it, I'd take a 140 hp V8 over an EcoBoost with half the displacement and cylinders and twice the horsepower; I'm sure I'm not alone, here.

 

Manual transmission, right?
 

The 10speed auto is faster and more efficient, but people still buy the V8 manual for the intangibles.  I think it will hold true until the end when ice is outlawed…if it ever is.  We’ll see if an ice sanctuary is formed.

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OK, the UK market is, in relative terms, tiny. But when the S550 was launched here, sales were 60/40 in favour of the V8. By the time the '18 was launched, that became 90/10 in favour of the V8.......to the extent that Ford UK dropped the Ecoboost and the V8 is the only S550 you can buy now.

 

That being said, I have no issue with a full EV Fastback or convertible. The engine never defined what a pony car was, it was the body style......a great looking, sleek 2+2 coupe or convertible with a long hood and a short deck. An EV Mustang can still be a pony car. 

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Is the muscle car market even worth it anymore? Sales have been in a free fall for years. The Mustang name is already in transition to CUVs anyhow. I can see offering a V8 Mustang for a few years when BEVs become more mainstream because sales are likely to improve when people want to get "one last real Mustang," but I don't see how BEV is going to really get the gearheads blood pumping. Use the brand, but don't waste resources on things that won't sell. The concept Dodge Charger EV has a fake exhaust and fake electronic noises to get the blood pumping. Lol Give me a break...

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45 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

The concept Dodge Charger EV has a fake exhaust and fake electronic noises to get the blood pumping. Lol Give me a break...Embracing technology

The embracing of the technology trails the advancement of it. For several years, Ransom E. Olds installed buggy whip holders on the dashboard of their cars, because customers were used to seeing one there.

 

I imagine by 2060 or so, when the transportation inventory is ~95% ZEV, a certain percentage of ZEV owners will have figured out how to annoy those around them,  just as their forebears do today with straight pipes.

Edited by Chrisgb
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40 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

Is the muscle car market even worth it anymore? Sales have been in a free fall for years. The Mustang name is already in transition to CUVs anyhow. I can see offering a V8 Mustang for a few years when BEVs become more mainstream because sales are likely to improve when people want to get "one last real Mustang," but I don't see how BEV is going to really get the gearheads blood pumping.

 

Guess we'll find out on September 14th how committed Ford is to the muscle car market through the end of this decade and into the next. Join The Stampede: Ford announces the Global Debut of the All-New, Seventh-Generation Mustang in Detroit on Sept. 14 | Ford Media Center

 

Regarding your question "how is BEV going to really get the gearheads blood pumping", the answer can be summed up in 3 words. Performance, customization, and sustainability. BEV can be engineered to be far superior to any existing ICE powered muscle cars with the first 2, and ICE is completely lacking with the third.

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5 hours ago, Twin Turbo said:

The engine never defined what a pony car was, it was the body style......a great looking, sleek 2+2 coupe or convertible with a long hood and a short deck. An EV Mustang can still be a pony car. 

 

Most definitely Twin Turbo. Not only can EV Mustang still be a pony car, but the technical advantages of electric propulsion combined with competition from GM and Stellantis BEV could encourage Ford to put forth the effort that makes BEV Mustang coupe/convertible the best pony car in history. Assuming of course that Ford deems the muscle car/pony car market "worth it" over the long term. ;)

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23 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Guess we'll find out on September 14th how committed Ford is to the muscle car market through the end of this decade and into the next. Join The Stampede: Ford announces the Global Debut of the All-New, Seventh-Generation Mustang in Detroit on Sept. 14 | Ford Media Center

 

Regarding your question "how is BEV going to really get the gearheads blood pumping", the answer can be summed up in 3 words. Performance, customization, and sustainability. BEV can be engineered to be far superior to any existing ICE powered muscle cars with the first 2, and ICE is completely lacking with the third.

I suspect you are correct, but Get Z and beyond (Gen AA? Z 2.0?) will need to find a replacement for the visceral sound and smell of even a poorly tuned ICE-er, that are an indispensable part of enthusiast car culture today, or just do without it. Either way, they will. Consider also that Lithium, neodymium, and samarium, critical materials in the motors and power packs of current BEVs, are finite resources and the latter two are commonly grouped as "rare earth" minerals. 

Pictured below are two examples of merchant marine technology. One is far more technically advanced and superior to the other, but which one appeals more to your right brain? 

 

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1 hour ago, 2005Explorer said:

Is the muscle car market even worth it anymore? Sales have been in a free fall for years. The Mustang name is already in transition to CUVs anyhow. I can see offering a V8 Mustang for a few years when BEVs become more mainstream because sales are likely to improve when people want to get "one last real Mustang," but I don't see how BEV is going to really get the gearheads blood pumping. Use the brand, but don't waste resources on things that won't sell. The concept Dodge Charger EV has a fake exhaust and fake electronic noises to get the blood pumping. Lol Give me a break...

 

It will be interesting to see how the Charger does.  If it flops, Ford may reconsider whether an EV Mustang coupe/convertible is worth developing. 

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25 minutes ago, ehaase said:

 

It will be interesting to see how the Charger does.  If it flops, Ford may reconsider whether an EV Mustang coupe/convertible is worth developing. 


For any other car I would agree, but I think Ford will maintain ICE mustangs as long as possible because it’s an icon.  Not necessarily a business decision.

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19 hours ago, akirby said:


But sound and the other subjective advantages of ICE is what the enthusiasts want.  Has nothing to do with absolute performance.  That’s why some still prefer 60s and 70s mustangs.  Of course it’s a small number of buyers but it’s enough for Ford to keep making high performance ICE mustangs and charging the enthusiasts appropriately until government forces them to stop.

 

 


It is weird how the goal post is always shifting for the anti-EV crowd. Used to be because they were "slow" or "an appliance", now EVs are fast and some of them pretty exciting/enthusiast worthy it's not about performance anymore. (not saying you specifically, akirby, just a general observation about those that hate BEV no matter how many made up things they post on social media about BEV that you tell them aren't true.. there's always another reason)

That said, I think it makes sense for Mustang to stay with ICE and possibly hybrid for as long as possible for the few diehards that are left. With concurrent BEV coupe if they can make the numbers work.

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1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:


It is weird how the goal post is always shifting for the anti-EV crowd. Used to be because they were "slow" or "an appliance", now EVs are fast and some of them pretty exciting/enthusiast worthy it's not about performance anymore. (not saying you specifically, akirby, just a general observation about those that hate BEV no matter how many made up things they post on social media about BEV that you tell them aren't true.. there's always another reason)

That said, I think it makes sense for Mustang to stay with ICE and possibly hybrid for as long as possible for the few diehards that are left. With concurrent BEV coupe if they can make the numbers work.


Like most things these days, there are people who think we can go 100% BEV right now or very soon and people who think BEVs are stupid.  The truth is in the middle.

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1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

That said, I think it makes sense for Mustang to stay with ICE and possibly hybrid for as long as possible for the few diehards that are left. With concurrent BEV coupe if they can make the numbers work.

 

That's the issue, long term the numbers do not favor Ford or other automakers fielding new ICE powered muscle/pony cars. Regulatory compliance costs alone for hi-po ICE powertrains will increase dramatically over the next 10 years, resulting in the scenario that Tim Kuniskis of Stellantis mentioned in the quote below. Hybrid technology may help matters in the extreme short term but isn't a viable solution overall. And Ford isn't pursuing hybrid for S650 Mustang anyway.

 

By 2030, ICE powered muscle cars (assuming any exist at that point) will be in a lose-lose situation. Technically inferior yet more expensive compared to BEV muscle cars. At that point, even the miniscule number of diehards may give up on the idea of purchasing a new ICE powered muscle car.

 

Tim Kuniskis statement on muscle cars.

1972 was the beginning of the end of the Golden Age of muscle cars. I’m super excited about the future of electric because I think it’s what’s going to allow us to not fall off the cliff. Without that technology, without electrification, this is 1972 right now. This thing is going to end.

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This is also the first time I have ever seen politics mixed in with vehicle purchases as well. I am not sure what the political leanings are of people into muscle cars, but I can tell you my conservative friends despise EVs. It's going to be the next big fight after COVID vaccinations and masks. This will be a longer term fight until the Government mandates it. What happens if the conservatives take over again? I am not ready for BEV at all myself, but I am not opposed it. Out here in the middle of rural South Dakota we are a long ways off. Of course cities and urban areas which are full of woke people will drive adoption. 

 

Again it comes back to a make-up of a market. Heck I'd be interested to know the political leanings of all current EV owners. I'm guessing a very heavy liberal tilt.

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2 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

This is also the first time I have ever seen politics mixed in with vehicle purchases as well. I am not sure what the political leanings are of people into muscle cars, but I can tell you my conservative friends despise EVs. It's going to be the next big fight after COVID vaccinations and masks. I never wore a mask during COVID and I'm still alive even after teaching kids in school. However this will be a long term fight until the Government mandates it. What happens if the conservatives take over again? I am not ready for BEV at all myself, but I am not opposed it. Out here in the middle of rural South Dakota we are a long ways off. Of course cities and urban areas which are full of woke people will drive adoption. 

 

Again it comes back to a make-up of a market. Heck I'd be interested to know the political leanings of all current EV owners. I'm guessing a very heavy liberal tilt.


I'm a right leaning libertarian and I'm not against EVs at all, I just thing we need to take a more measured approach to transitioning than this hard deadline mandate the left is pushing. Mandating EVs without addressing any questions about the  infrastructure to support them is a terrible idea. 

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