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Ford Starts Construction of Blue Oval City


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34 minutes ago, tarheels23 said:

I notice you had/have a 2010 Fusion Hybrid.  O have a 2013 C-Max SEL hybrid and getting over 50 MPG today with 106K+ miles, I do drive to get best MPG.  How did/do you like the Fusion?

 

The Fusion was a completely unexpected purchase for me-

 

I was expecting to get my Bronco in July 2021-it got pushed to the fall of that year due to roof issues

I sold my SHO in June and needed a car to have "just in case" since I was working from home most of the time 

 

My Brother in Law got a Tesla 3 that summer and was picking it up in August-I asked him how much he was getting for a trade in- was only 1K, so I bought it off him to hold me over


My Bronco showed up this time last year and I had an infamous ADM incident with my first Bronco that became an article on Jalopnik. 

Long story short after that-The Fusion was a great car for what it was for me-outside of having to dump $1800 bucks into it for new front brake calipers-they went after 210K+ miles on them, it ran flawlessly. The car was actually in pretty decent shape interior wise for being 13 years old. I had to detail it to take care of the outside issues it had. I only got around 30 MPG out of it but it was underpowered for me..needed a bit more pick up so I was flooring it lol. 

I sold in May after my second Bronco showed up and sold it for 3X what I paid for it. 

 

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16 hours ago, akirby said:


If you need to tow heavy loads long distances, this is not the vehicle for you.  Not sure why that has to be repeated over and over.

 

Totally agree, those of us towing heavy trailers don't even consider a F-150 as being an option, as we require a Super Duty. My minimum requirement being a F-350 DRW.

 

However, at present the BEV F-150 doesn't work for our local weekend warriors that tow small 5,000 - 7,000 lb trailers a couple of hundred miles round trip to a campsite for the weekend. Hardly a heavy trailer and not a long distance.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

I think the biggest hurdle for the Lightning will be cost. Ford just announced another $5000 price increase for the Pro model - it now starts at $52K. An extended range XLT stickers at $81K! We’re not going to see mass adoption at those price levels. 

 

Good points Trader 10. Sam Fiorani, analyst with AutoForecast Solutions, says that Ford's pricing strategy with F-150 Lightning Pro was a good one when the truck was introduced, and that the increased prices are appropriate now because beyond addressing inflationary pressures, it will help Ford fund its transition to 100% electric vehicles. As BEV production increases, there is always the possibility of cheaper BEV from Ford in the future. Why Ford had ‘no choice’ but to raise F-150 Lightning prices again: Analyst (yahoo.com)

 

From the time Ford announced pricing for the Lightning, inflation has hit the industry quite hard; it was just inopportune timing that they released the Lightning at this time.”

That being said, [Sam Fiorani] believes the Lightning is the “perfect vehicle for Ford to absorb some of these added costs” because demand from early adopters is high, inventories of the vehicle are light, and factory space needed to make more of the Lightnings is limited.

It's not all bad news for Ford, however. Fiorani says these higher prices will help Ford further fund its EV transition, perhaps in time help the company develop cheaper EVs down the road.

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4 hours ago, tarheels23 said:

this argument about buyers will not buy the Lightning is the same argument against EcoBoost, when the F150 owners find out about the long-term cost savings in maintenance they will certainly be happy to get one IMHO.

With respect, that is an unequal comparison and not what I said.

Currently Reservations and actual orders are showing that the bulk of Lightning “orders” ~70% of 200k) are coming from non F150 buyers. That actually supports Ford’s original assertion of growing F150 sales ahead of any idea of existing F150 owners mass transitioning  to Lightning……that may be the case with next generation Lightning, we don’t know because it way too soon and Ford is fully engaged build the current Lightning.

 

The comical part here is that Ford has a huge pile of orders For Lightning, intends a big ramp up compared to original plans but the suppliers seem to be unable to ramp up the way Ford wants. Ford has less than three years before the next Gen BEV F150 begins production and roughly 200,000 reservations and orders for the current Lightning to be filled before then…

 

 

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2 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

 

Totally agree, those of us towing heavy trailers don't even consider a F-150 as being an option, as we require a Super Duty. My minimum requirement being a F-350 DRW.

 

However, at present the BEV F-150 doesn't work for our local weekend warriors that tow small 5,000 - 7,000 lb trailers a couple of hundred miles round trip to a campsite for the weekend. Hardly a heavy trailer and not a long distance.

This is a good point and for now, Lightning buyers are mostly purchasing their vehicles to do everything else but regular towing, so there is a fairly large group that buys the truck and uses it like a large sedan. That’s why I’m thinking that Ford has a great opportunity to bring in new buyers that don’t cannibalise existing F150 sales, giving Ford time to improve batteries and range when towing. There will be a transition to BEV but only when the Lightning makes more sense to the broader F150 buyer base.

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30 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The comical part here is that Ford has a huge pile of orders For Lightning, intends a big ramp up compared to original plans but the suppliers seem to be unable to ramp up the way Ford wants. Ford has less than three years before the next Gen BEV F150 begins production and roughly 200,000 reservations and orders for the current Lightning to be filled before then…

 

That's correct jpd80. It's kinda scary thinking about the implications of what you mentioned. But I'm optimistic that Ford will be able to solve its supply chain bottlenecks and fulfill existing F-150 Lightning reservations and orders well before the unveiling of next gen BEV F-150. And maybe even before Blue Oval City starts production.

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25 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

That's correct jpd80. It's kinda scary thinking about the implications of what you mentioned. But I'm optimistic that Ford will be able to solve its supply chain bottlenecks and fulfill existing F-150 Lightning reservations and orders well before the unveiling of next gen BEV F-150. And maybe even before Blue Oval City starts production.

It’s a good problem to have, the exact opposite of no interest in Lightning means that Ford is under the pump to build as many as it can - all of them are money for jam. At some point, Ford will have to admit that current Lightning orders will need to be capped and future orders become next Gen F150 BEVs.I’m shocked at how quickly 2022 has passed we’re two and a half months from 2023, so Ford “only” has a couple of years of this Lightning before the replacement arrives…….Ford needs to get past all of its supplier constraints, it’s holding back ICE and BEV, that is a bigger, more pressing issue than whether people will buy Lightning, there’s  already tons of orders waiting for their trucks…

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5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

This is a good point and for now, Lightning buyers are mostly purchasing their vehicles to do everything else but regular towing, so there is a fairly large group that buys the truck and uses it like a large sedan. That’s why I’m thinking that Ford has a great opportunity to bring in new buyers that don’t cannibalise existing F150 sales, giving Ford time to improve batteries and range when towing. There will be a transition to BEV but only when the Lightning makes more sense to the broader F150 buyer base.

 

Totally agree.

 

Locally, we have considerable interest in the F-150 Lightning, based on the number of orders my local Sales Manager has received. However, most are clearly not from existing F-150 owners that use the truck for towing.

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9 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

 

Totally agree, those of us towing heavy trailers don't even consider a F-150 as being an option, as we require a Super Duty. My minimum requirement being a F-350 DRW.

 

However, at present the BEV F-150 doesn't work for our local weekend warriors that tow small 5,000 - 7,000 lb trailers a couple of hundred miles round trip to a campsite for the weekend. Hardly a heavy trailer and not a long distance.

 

 

My point that AK felt was a point that did not  need repeating. I disagree as it is so critical to many.  The  yuppie grocery haulers -not so much..plenty of others, areal consideration

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1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

My point that AK felt was a point that did not  need repeating. I disagree as it is so critical to many.  The  yuppie grocery haulers -not so much..plenty of others, areal consideration


 My point was there are hundreds of thousands who want a BEV truck that doesn’t tow anything long distances, and there are hundreds of thousands who  do tow stuff and those people can still buy a V6 or V8 F150 or Super Duty.    People don’t tow much with 3.3L F150s either but that’s all some folks need.

 

Lihtning doesn’t have to do everything to be successful and Ford has all the bases covered.

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34 minutes ago, akirby said:


 My point was there are hundreds of thousands who want a BEV truck that doesn’t tow anything long distances, and there are hundreds of thousands who  do tow stuff and those people can still buy a V6 or V8 F150 or Super Duty.    People don’t tow much with 3.3L F150s either but that’s all some folks need.

 

Lihtning doesn’t have to do everything to be successful and Ford has all the bases covered.

Correct, people expecting a faster conversation rate to BEV pickups have to understand real world limitations are there but Ford still has great hybrid and Powerboost alternatives.

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19 hours ago, jpd80 said:

With respect, that is an unequal comparison and not what I said.

Currently Reservations and actual orders are showing that the bulk of Lightning “orders” ~70% of 200k) are coming from non F150 buyers. That actually supports Ford’s original assertion of growing F150 sales ahead of any idea of existing F150 owners mass transitioning  to Lightning……that may be the case with next generation Lightning, we don’t know because it way too soon and Ford is fully engaged build the current Lightning.

 

The comical part here is that Ford has a huge pile of orders For Lightning, intends a big ramp up compared to original plans but the suppliers seem to be unable to ramp up the way Ford wants. Ford has less than three years before the next Gen BEV F150 begins production and roughly 200,000 reservations and orders for the current Lightning to be filled before then…

 

 

OK, just meant that all the talk about the EcoBoost V6 was that TRUCKERS would only drive a V8 so the EcoBoost was a NOGO from the start and after 2 years the V6 was king.  Now the limited mileage will be an impediment for sure but as all the other advantages of BEV are more understood by the buying public I think that will be LESS of an issue.

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4 hours ago, tarheels23 said:

OK, just meant that all the talk about the EcoBoost V6 was that TRUCKERS would only drive a V8 so the EcoBoost was a NOGO from the start and after 2 years the V6 was king.  Now the limited mileage will be an impediment for sure but as all the other advantages of BEV are more understood by the buying public I think that will be LESS of an issue.

It’s not the same thing and here’s why,

When it comes to towing trailers with significant weight, the amount of energy used can be up to  three times as much, be that gasoline, diesel or electric. Where that hurts Lightning is range, 300 miles becomes 100 miles with considerable time to recharge. In the same situation, a gasoline F150 can be ordered with up to a 36 gallon tank which will guarantee at least 250 miles range while towing and relatively quick refuelling in minutes. Like it or not, this can be a big issue for those owners who intend doing a lot of towing - I don’t see that as being the case with current Lightning buyers.

 

What we’re seeing with reservations and orders is many new Lightning buyers who are generally less interested in towing, that’s great news for Ford because it means that the current Lightning will be fully sold out until the next generation becomes available. So this is far less about who won’t buy Lightning and more about how many Ford can supply to an EV hungry market.

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

So this is far less about who won’t buy Lightning and more about how many Ford can supply to an EV hungry market.

 

Most definitely jpd80. Motor Trend said the following a few months ago. It's even more relevant now amid the recently announced price increases for 2023 F-150 Lightning as well as the announcement that BOC construction has started.

 

At this point, Americans aren't waiting for EV technology to mature or the price to come down. They're simply waiting for the EVs they want to be built.

 

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Lightning prices are increasing again.....Lightning Pro now starts at $52k.....

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/10/06/2023-ford-f150-lightning-price-increase/

 

Quote

 

Ford has only been delivering the F-150 Lightning for a few months, but the truck has already seen a steep price increase. In August, the automaker boosted prices by significant amounts across the board, with some trims seeing as much as an $8,500 jump. Now, Ford’s increasing the Lightning’s cost again, and the base Pro model isn’t looking so affordable anymore.

The good news is that current reservation holders won’t be affected by the almost 11 percent increase in base pricing for the truck. The bad news is that the Lightning Pro now starts at nearly $52,000, a far cry from the shockingly reasonably sub-$40,000 price tag Ford initially pitched. The top-end Lightning Platinum now starts at around $97,000, around a five percent increase from the 2022 model year.

 

 

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This is a growing issue for Ford, the Lightning is an excellent example of changing a high volume ICE design to a BEV, the problem is that the battery side is adding huge cost to the whole thing. Ford is not alone in this but I wonder if some point is reached where buyer interest wains because of higher and higher repayments…or is that offset by seeing rising residual prices?

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38 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Ford is not alone in this

 

I don't perceive that GM are raising their prices on Ultium to this extent, or for that matter Hyundai/Kia. Not sure what Tesla is doing. 

 

It would be interesting to have a summary of EV price increases to really see who is doing what.

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29 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

I don't perceive that GM are raising their prices on Ultium to this extent, or for that matter Hyundai/Kia. Not sure what Tesla is doing. 

 

It would be interesting to have a summary of EV price increases to really see who is doing what.

No but thoughts of a $30,000 version of Ultium Equinox must have evaporated.

GM will generally be using larger batteries based on pouch technology so even if there’s greater savings doing that, the rising costs of lithium (3 times) and other materials like Nickel and cobalt must surely be adding to GM’s costs. Most likely, they will just build the richer trim mixes with higher prices, buyers who mostly lease won’t care because higher residual prices.

 

Sales of Korean BEVs seems to have resided, maybe their buyers are more affected by economic realities….

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2 hours ago, sullynd said:

The weird thing is it’s just the Pro that went up in price, and it’s sold out for the 23 model year. 

 

That confirms Sam Fiorani contention that F-150 Lightning is the "perfect vehicle for Ford to absorb some of these added costs."

 

Ford could increase prices for the entire F-150 Lightning range yet again before calendar year 2022 is over (wouldn't be surprised if they do that) and not worry about losing customers. Demand for F-150 Lightning, both Pro and higher trims, is off the charts.

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15 hours ago, jpd80 said:

This is a growing issue for Ford, the Lightning is an excellent example of changing a high volume ICE design to a BEV, the problem is that the battery side is adding huge cost to the whole thing. Ford is not alone in this but I wonder if some point is reached where buyer interest wains because of higher and higher repayments…or is that offset by seeing rising residual prices?

 

Yeah, I think they're dangerously close to turning people off.

 

3 hours ago, sullynd said:

The weird thing is it’s just the Pro that went up in price, and it’s sold out for the 23 model year. 

 

Well, other trims had already gone up significantly in previous months.

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On 10/9/2022 at 12:50 AM, rmc523 said:

 

Yeah, I think they're dangerously close to turning people off.

We know it’s the financial people inside ford pitching higher and higher prices to reduce build and make profit taking easier with fewer resources expended. Ford has been doing that strategy for more than 15 years now, right sizing to the market but really excluding builds and sales that are less profitable.

 

On 10/9/2022 at 12:50 AM, rmc523 said:

Well, other trims had already gone up significantly in previous months.

Ford doing their sums re underlying costs and profit level. Everything is getting more expensive….

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Speaking of pricing-1/3 of F-150 owners have a car payment of over $1000 a month!

 

https://fordauthority.com/2022/10/over-one-third-of-ford-f-150-owners-have-1000-monthly-bill/

 

There was another article on Ford Authority that the average monthly payment on a Mach E was over $800 a month. 
 

Apparently people are making a lot more money then we think or they are just over leveraged up to their eyeballs. 

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Apparently people are making a lot more money then we think or they are just over leveraged up to their eyeballs. 


I’m thinking it’s the latter. I’m definitely rethinking my plans for my next vehicle purchase. I’m leaning more towards finding an old shitbox to drive into the ground. 

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On 10/15/2022 at 8:14 AM, fuzzymoomoo said:


I’m thinking it’s the latter. I’m definitely rethinking my plans for my next vehicle purchase. I’m leaning more towards finding an old shitbox to drive into the ground. 

That’s better than getting ripped off at the stealership for overpriced vehicles that you’re likely not gonna get for months or maybe even a year! I will drive my 12 year old fusion into the ground! Can’t afford to buy no new vehicle with us at OAC working three day weeks and being laid off lately every other  damn week! 

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