How California is preparing its grid to handle the transition to electric vehicles

[silvrsvt]

How California is preparing its grid to handle the transition to electric vehicles

 

Some statics mixed into this so we more information hopefully to use to argue over

[7Mary3]

The important points are the transition will not happen overnight and the utilities are working to support the transition as we speak.  

[jpd80]

Other states are also moving to more green power and renewables, so while not 100%, changes are coming.

 

I wonder if Tesla has a big role in the future with battery storage plants to supply power when solar and wind can’t. Musk will probably be all over this in the next year or so

[Joe771476]

I hope that eventually we're going to have charging stations that can recharge ALL makes of vehicles.  Remember how it was a battle between VHS and Beta video cassette tapes?  VHS won out!  There can only be ONE design, just like there is for gasoline!

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

I hope that eventually we're going to have charging stations that can recharge ALL makes of vehicles.  Remember how it was a battle between VHS and Beta video cassette tapes?  VHS won out!  There can only be ONE design, just like there is for gasoline!

LOL, 87, 91, 93 and diesel

There are standard charging plugs and adapters but also 400 volt and a new 800 volt system.

[bzcat]

It's a very good article. Long on facts and short on hyperbole.

 

It also basically tracks with what I've been saying for a while on BOF:

• The grid is fine overall but needs more storage capacity.
• EV demand is not a spike but a graduate build. We have lots of time to add the necessary generating and storage capacity into the grid. Even with the mandate on new car sales, it will take 30+ years to phase out all the ICE
• EV uses very little electricity (the article says 0.4% of the generating capacity at peak now and up to 4% by 2035). In comparison, crypto currency already uses about 2% of our electricity. So anyone out there saying EV is going to collapse the grid is living in a parallel universe.
• EV is parked 23 hours a day so charging is pretty spread out during low demand period. 
• EV demand is strong. California is probably 5 years ahead of the rest of the US in terms of EV penetration and it is at 16% of new cars sales and is projected to hit 20% end of this year or early next year.
• As the grid adds more renewable and phases out coal or gas, the EV CO2 footprint will get smaller over its lifetime.

[sullynd]

10 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

I hope that eventually we're going to have charging stations that can recharge ALL makes of vehicles.  Remember how it was a battle between VHS and Beta video cassette tapes?  VHS won out!  There can only be ONE design, just like there is for gasoline!

These exist now. 
 

Virtually all BEV/PHEV can use the same L2 connector. 
 

There are three standards in the US for fast charging, CHAdeMO, CCS, and Tesla. CHAdeMO is deadman walking.  Even Nissan, who holds the patents for it, has abandoned it. Electrify America has a CHAdeMO handle at most of their locations (the rest being CCS).  Tesla has said they will eventually add CCS.  EvGo already has chargers that support all three.
 

The “OMG Different Standards” BS is really just FUD spread by people who don’t know the first thing about EVs. 

[bzcat]

22 hours ago, sullynd said:

These exist now. 
 

Virtually all BEV/PHEV can use the same L2 connector. 
 

There are three standards in the US for fast charging, CHAdeMO, CCS, and Tesla. CHAdeMO is deadman walking.  Even Nissan, who holds the patents for it, has abandoned it. Electrify America has a CHAdeMO handle at most of their locations (the rest being CCS).  Tesla has said they will eventually add CCS.  EvGo already has chargers that support all three.
 

The “OMG Different Standards” BS is really just FUD spread by people who don’t know the first thing about EVs. 

 

The different charger thing is FUD for sure. You can charge Tesla with CCS Type 1 charger - you just need an adopter, which comes with the car. If you have a home charger, you can charge any kind of EV without issue. The problem is usually with the public charging network because they are trying to charge you money for using it (I will explain some more below).

 

To put it in terms that people can understand, Tesla charger is like Apple Lightning and CCS is like USB C (I guess CHAdeMo would be USB A in this scenario). You can still charge your phone with either charger as long as you have a lightning to USB adapter. In fact, outside the US, Tesla just like Apple generally doesn't use its own charger because local laws usually require compliance with standard charger (e.g. Tesla use CCS Type 2 in Europe and most of Asia, and in China it uses the Chinese standard). Apple and Tesla only impose a different charger to the American consumer because our general weak consumer protection laws and regulatory indifference. Apple's Lightning plugs imposes a hurdle to prevent people from switching brands (you have to re-purchase all the chargers). Tesla's non-standard charger is the same thing.  

 

Also important to understand the difference between Tesla's charger and Tesla's charging network. They are not tied together as I already mentioned - in other countries, Tesla's network doesn't use its charger. Tesla's charging network is closed to other brands by choice both in the US and in other countries, it's not because the charger is different. They just don't want to deal with the software integration work required by SAE CCS standards. A lot of the unreliability in non-Tesla charging networks are software related because the network is trying to charge you for using it. It's hard to make everything work when there are 15 brands and all of them are constantly updating the firmware. Tesla network's seeming reliablity is due to its simplicity - only 1 brand to interface and the firmware for the car, the phone app, and charging network always match. If Tesla opens its network to other brands, it will suffer the same kind of unreliable service when firmware version have mismatch. But this is why Tesla will never open its network despite Elon saying otherwise. It's too much of a competitive advantage. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by bzcat

[sullynd]

Teslas do not come with CCS adapters. They only recently started selling them in the US.  People had been importing them from Asia, which is also CCS1, for a year or so. 

 

The vast majority of EVs do not use plug and charge.  When not using my Ford account (which does plug and charge) EA could not care less if I’m in my Lightning, my old Mach-E, a Taycan, or an EV6. The payment process is the same. (EA account using either the app or tap to start the device).  I can do plug and charge if I use my Ford account, but it is not at the discounted EA membership rate. EvGo has just started doing plug and charge - I haven’t tried it yet, but probably will, as I don’t get a discount with them anyway.  I believe the rest of the networks have proprietary payment methods that are also vehicle agnostic. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by sullynd

[danielmeyers]

On 10/3/2022 at 1:45 AM, bzcat said:

 

The different charger thing is FUD for sure. You can charge Tesla with CCS Type 1 charger - you just need an adopter, which comes with the car. If you have a home charger, you can charge any kind of EV without issue. The problem is usually with the public charging network because they are trying to charge you money for using it (I will explain some more below).

 

To put it in terms that people can understand, Tesla charger is like Apple Lightning and CCS is like USB C (I guess CHAdeMo would be USB A in this scenario). You can still charge your phone with either charger as long as you have a lightning to USB adapter. In fact, outside the US, Tesla just like Apple generally doesn't use its own charger because local laws usually require compliance with standard charger (e.g. Tesla use CCS Type 2 in Europe and most of Asia, and in China it uses the Chinese standard). Apple and Tesla only impose a different charger to the American consumer because our general weak consumer protection laws and regulatory indifference. Apple's Lightning plugs imposes a hurdle to prevent people from switching brands (you have to re-purchase all the chargers). Tesla's non-standard charger is the same thing.  

 

Also important to understand the difference between Tesla's charger and Tesla's charging network. They are not tied together as I already mentioned - in other countries, Tesla's network doesn't use its charger. Tesla's charging network is closed to other brands by choice both in the US and in other countries, it's not because the charger is different. They just don't want to deal with the software integration work required by SAE CCS standards. A lot of the unreliability in non-Tesla charging networks are software related because the network is trying to charge you for using it. It's hard to make everything work when there are 15 brands and all of them are constantly updating the firmware, just like it was hard to understand someone to write my paper on https://writemypapers4me.net/. Tesla network's seeming reliablity is due to its simplicity - only 1 brand to interface and the firmware for the car, the phone app, and charging network always match. If Tesla opens its network to other brands, it will suffer the same kind of unreliable service when firmware version have mismatch. But this is why Tesla will never open its network despite Elon saying otherwise. It's too much of a competitive advantage. 

Heard that Tesla will open a network of Supercharger charging stations for other brands of cars by the end of this year. According to Elon, car owners will have to install the Tesla app to access the charging stations. Users would then need to specify which station to charge at and initiate a session. Musk said the app-based system would likely work with cars from any other automaker. Is this true or not?

Edited October 28, 2022 by danielmeyers

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, danielmeyers said:

Heard that Tesla will open a network of Supercharger charging stations for other brands of cars by the end of this year. According to Elon, car owners will have to install the Tesla app to access the charging stations. Users would then need to specify which station to charge at and initiate a session. Musk said the app-based system would likely work with cars from any other automaker. Is this true?

 

That sounds correct danielmeyers. In Europe, Tesla has an app based system for non-Tesla BEV owners to use their Supercharger network. Tesla charges a higher rate for these customers compared to Tesla owners, though non-Tesla owners can sign up for a subscription plan that lowers the cost somewhat.

[bzcat]

Tesla opened its network to other brands in Europe because it fears EU antitrust enforecement and lawsuit. The US Govt by comparison thinks consumer protection is a nuisance so Tesla has no fear.

[rperez817]

Google My Map showing locations of upcoming Tesla superchargers. California has a lot of them, especially in the LA and San Francisco regions. Tesla's Big Q4 Oopsie - Google My Maps

[rperez817]

I created a new thread topic in the Competing Products forum about GM's announcement today of its new Energy business unit. One of collaborations and projects highlighted by GM Energy is with the Northern California utility company PG&E, who is working with GM to test bidirectional charging, V2G, and V2H technologies. 

 

 

[bzcat]

Having 2-way meters and using all the EVs as storage is really going to add a huge amount of storage capacity to the grid for relatively little cost for the utility. They would be smart to all jump on similar programs. 

[7Mary3]

https://gmenergy.gm.com/?ppc=____&d_src=313715&d_adsrc=3876788&d_campaign=&d_site=&d_adgroup=&d_keyword=&gclick=EAIaIQobChMIntyWy_XY-gIVBCytBh2jFAZfEAAYASAAEgJHovD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIntyWy_XY-gIVBCytBh2jFAZfEAAYASAAEgJHovD_BwE

[akirby]

27 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Having 2-way meters and using all the EVs as storage is really going to add a huge amount of storage capacity to the grid for relatively little cost for the utility. They would be smart to all jump on similar programs. 

I’m wondering how many BEVs would be charged and connected in late afternoon/ early evening peak consumption?  A lot will be at work or out to dinner.

 

To me a solar panel system connected to a battery system in each home where the batteries are always connected and can either be charged with solar during the day or off the grid at night and both the batteries and solar can back feed the grid is a better solution (augmented by BEVs).

 

Im really intrigued by the kinetic energy storage solutions like reservoirs and weight towers.

[fordmantpw]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I’m wondering how many BEVs would be charged and connected in late afternoon/ early evening peak consumption?  A lot will be at work or out to dinner.

 

I would expect the greatest benefit of connected BEVs would be at night, when the need for demand is lower, hence, less benefit.  

 

1 hour ago, akirby said:

To me a solar panel system connected to a battery system in each home where the batteries are always connected and can either be charged with solar during the day or off the grid at night and both the batteries and solar can back feed the grid is a better solution (augmented by BEVs).

 

Agreed, charge the batteries with solar during the day, then let that backfeed in the late afternoon when sun energy fades and people are returning home.  I've got 11.7kW of solar on my house...I just wish I had a BEV to charge it with.  ? 

 

Curious, though, what using BEVs for storage to feed back into the grid does to battery life.  Batteries are expensive, and I don't want to decrease my battery life to support the grid.

 

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Im really intrigued by the kinetic energy storage solutions like reservoirs and weight towers.

 

Storing water in abandoned mine shafts is also being explored.  Apparently, blowing the top off of a mountain for a storage reservoir doesn't fly with the greenies anymore...

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I’m wondering how many BEVs would be charged and connected in late afternoon/ early evening peak consumption?  A lot will be at work or out to dinner.

 

Both Ford and GM are gathering real world data from their respective V2G and V2H pilot programs with PG&E regarding consumption/production patterns for BEV charging and for returning energy to the grid. 

[jpd80]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:11 AM, bzcat said:

Tesla opened its network to other brands in Europe because it fears EU antitrust enforecement and lawsuit. The US Govt by comparison thinks consumer protection is a nuisance so Tesla has no fear.

Tesla is about to open up its high speed chargers to non-Tesla brands late this year.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/7/23198696/tesla-supercharger-non-tesla-ev-us-white-house

[Captainp4]

On 10/11/2022 at 3:23 PM, akirby said:

I’m wondering how many BEVs would be charged and connected in late afternoon/ early evening peak consumption?  A lot will be at work or out to dinner.

 

To me a solar panel system connected to a battery system in each home where the batteries are always connected and can either be charged with solar during the day or off the grid at night and both the batteries and solar can back feed the grid is a better solution (augmented by BEVs).

 

Im really intrigued by the kinetic energy storage solutions like reservoirs and weight towers.

The Tesla roof and powerwall seem to be the way to go (or similar from other suppliers). I don't like the idea of relying on people's cars to power the grid. I'd bet there's a lot of resistance from a lot of people on it unless emergency situations. I don't like the idea of paying for a BEV for the grid to use more of my limited number of charge/discharge cycles before battery needs replaced or using up all my juice and I NEED to go somewhere immediately.

[bzcat]

3 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

The Tesla roof and powerwall seem to be the way to go (or similar from other suppliers). I don't like the idea of relying on people's cars to power the grid. I'd bet there's a lot of resistance from a lot of people on it unless emergency situations. I don't like the idea of paying for a BEV for the grid to use more of my limited number of charge/discharge cycles before battery needs replaced or using up all my juice and I NEED to go somewhere immediately.

 

That's not the idea, you are not using the car to power the grid. You are using the car to add resiliency to your house and insulate it. If you have an EV, you have a 100 kwh battery at your house. You can time shift the power consumption and draw power from it during peak demand so the grid is not overtaxed. It's exactly the same concept as grid scale storage - you charge your battery (EV) during off peak (at early afternoon or late at night) and you draw from it when needed during peak (at evening or mid morning). 

 

But of course the ability to sell excess power back to the grid is just bonus. But generally speaking, you need solar panels to generate enough to sell back. Having battery (EV) doesn't give you enough power to sell to the grid.

[akirby]

14 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

That's not the idea, you are not using the car to power the grid. You are using the car to add resiliency to your house and insulate it. If you have an EV, you have a 100 kwh battery at your house. You can time shift the power consumption and draw power from it during peak demand so the grid is not overtaxed. It's exactly the same concept as grid scale storage - you charge your battery (EV) during off peak (at early afternoon or late at night) and you draw from it when needed during peak (at evening or mid morning).

 

I don't think that changes the issue that a lot of people are either not able or don't want to deplete their vehicle's battery to power the house.   IF you're at home during peak hours AND your battery is sufficiently charged AND you can wait and recharge overnight then sure it works fine.  But some people never let their gas tank go below 1/2 full and those people will not go for this idea.

 

That's why a battery wall is better (albeit more expensive up front).   The batteries are dedicated to the house.

[rperez817]

50 minutes ago, akirby said:

That's why a battery wall is better (albeit more expensive up front).   The batteries are dedicated to the house.

 

Battery wall and BEV are complementary, each has different usage scenarios in the context of what bzcat mentioned about adding resiliency.

[akirby]

52 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Battery wall and BEV are complementary, each has different usage scenarios in the context of what bzcat mentioned about adding resiliency.

The wall is available 100% of the time for both discharging and charging.

 

BEV are only available some of the time based on how the owner drives and their personal preference on charging.