Speedy9 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Hi All, I went down the rabbit hole and I am wonder what you all make of this. From what I saw on google the current 2022 Ford Escape has a 88kw 129ftlb torque electric motor as part of the ecvt system. The current 2022 Ford mavericks motor is suppose to be the same motor and ecvt, but per fords tech spec sheet it has a 94kw 173ftlb torque electric motor as part of its ecvt system. The final gearing per the spec sheets seem to be the same so it seems to me that something must of changed with the mavericks hybrid system. Does this mean we could see a more powerful motor in the 2023 Ford escape hybrid and plugin? If so this could be huge with the 34% increase in torque. Ford Maverick Spec Sheet https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/product/2022/maverick/pdf/2022-Ford-Maverick-Technical-Specifications.pdf Ford Escape Spec Sheet(Hard to find numbers on the escape system as ford didnt have it as part of there tech spec sheet that I could find) https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/makes/ford/escape/2021/specifications/titanium-hybrid-awd/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/fords-new-house-maverick-hybrid-e-motor-20-percent-lighter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy9 Posted October 1, 2022 Author Share Posted October 1, 2022 5 hours ago, akirby said: https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/fords-new-house-maverick-hybrid-e-motor-20-percent-lighter Excellent article, thank you. So it is a different system like I thought. Parts houses also confirm this as the 20% weight reduction specified in the article match up with replacement ecvts when comparing both models. Man I hope the 2023 Ford Escape comes with fords “in house” version of the ecvt. Article claims the new ecvt is capable of 98kw at 2300Nm that would be a huge increase for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Speedy9 said: Excellent article, thank you. So it is a different system like I thought. Parts houses also confirm this as the 20% weight reduction specified in the article match up with replacement ecvts when comparing both models. Man I hope the 2023 Ford Escape comes with fords “in house” version of the ecvt. Article claims the new ecvt is capable of 98kw at 2300Nm that would be a huge increase for sure. That article was written in June '21 so hopefully the '23 Escape will have the new motor. The battery could use more distance also but I will be satisfied with the old system also. I've had the '05 and '09 FEH and the '13 and '15 CMax plug-in and loved them all. I put in a order for the '23 Escape plug-in but my order has not been accepted by Ford yet. I have a 18 Whaler and was hoping the new Escape will tow it okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 It's entirely possible for Ford to switch Escape (and Corsair) to the new Ford-manufactured version of HF45 with the new in-house electric motor, as found in Maverick. That said, I personally wouldn't count on it until Ford announces otherwise. The biggest reason for saying that is that 2023 is just a refresh, it's not a new generation. Updating mechanical components isn't really the priority there. Maverick's HF45 is said to have improved cooling capacity etc in order to better support towing at 2000 lb (Escape Hybrid is limited to 1500 lb). It's being built in-house vs. the outsourced HF45 in Escape/Corsair (which they may have long-term contractual obligations to buy from the supplier). The units rolling down the line at VDEPC may or may not have provisions for AWD, as Maverick does not currently offer an AWD Hybrid, whereas Escape does. https://www.sae.org/news/2022/04/engineering-fords-new-hf45-hybrid-transmission So, it's possible, but don't count on it. As it is, they still haven't publicly announced 2023 Escape's refresh at all, despite order banks being opened longer than the entire duration Maverick's retail order banks were open. Ramping up production capacity at Van Dyke Electric Powertrain Center shouldn't be the concern, but supply chains are all out of whack these days. We'll see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy9 Posted October 2, 2022 Author Share Posted October 2, 2022 Of course all of this is just speculation. We won’t know anything till it’s released at a min. Though even at release ford hasn’t been great at giving information about the difference with ecvt system. Many articles claimed the 2.5hybrid in the maverick was the same one out of the current escape when it’s clearly not. Also the parts houses use the same part number for the mavericks ecvt as the current escape only thing that separates them is the models and year. On a side note we could look at history as well. Ford has consistently “refreshed” the 2.5l hydrid ecvt transmission every 4 years like clock work. The current system used in the escape was last refreshed in 2017, which means the 2022 mavericks system is the refreshed version. Speaking of supply chain issues. I have to dig but I remember reading one report that the in house system was developed due to supply chain issues with the current supplier not being able to keep up demand. I believe they share a supplier with Toyota. There was deal sparked between Toyota and Ford for licensing patents between them to create the 2.5l hybrid engine with the ecvt. Either way I hope they release it soon. I called the corporate number just for fun they said any day now. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 It appears to me the '23 plug-in FWD ECVT could be a different ECVT than in the FWD ECVT in the other '23 Hybrid Escapes. The plug-in FWD could use the extra torque so the gas engine doesn't kick on under acceleration as easy under towing. I noticed there is a different motor # on the ordering pages for the FWD Platinum and FWD Plug-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayza Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 12 hours ago, GaryG said: It appears to me the '23 plug-in FWD ECVT could be a different ECVT than in the FWD ECVT in the other '23 Hybrid Escapes. The plug-in FWD could use the extra torque so the gas engine doesn't kick on under acceleration as easy under towing. I noticed there is a different motor # on the ordering pages for the FWD Platinum and FWD Plug-in. That IS interesting. 2022 Escape Order Guide has every PHEV trim having an order code of 99Z/445 for the engine/trans code. 2023 Escape order guide has the Hybrids (Active, ST-Line, Elite, Platinum) having the same 99Z/445 code, but the PHEV for 2023 now has that code listed as 991/445. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Kayza said: That IS interesting. 2022 Escape Order Guide has every PHEV trim having an order code of 99Z/445 for the engine/trans code. 2023 Escape order guide has the Hybrids (Active, ST-Line, Elite, Platinum) having the same 99Z/445 code, but the PHEV for 2023 now has that code listed as 991/445. 99Z/991 is the engine code, not the transmission, per page 30 of the 2023 Escape order guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 4 hours ago, Kayza said: That IS interesting. 2022 Escape Order Guide has every PHEV trim having an order code of 99Z/445 for the engine/trans code. 2023 Escape order guide has the Hybrids (Active, ST-Line, Elite, Platinum) having the same 99Z/445 code, but the PHEV for 2023 now has that code listed as 991/445. Glad you found the same thing I did. I was also thinking Ford may have put the newer motor in the 2023 PHEV in order to meet the new tax credit requirements of being built in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayza Posted October 6, 2022 Share Posted October 6, 2022 (edited) On 10/4/2022 at 12:32 PM, j2sys said: 99Z/991 is the engine code, not the transmission, per page 30 of the 2023 Escape order guide. Escape Active page 8 has engine/trans code for the 2.5l hybrid being 99Z/445. Same thing for ST-Line on page 12, ST-Line Select page 15, ST-Line Elite page 18, and Platinum page 21. The order code if you want to the hybrid 2.5l engine is 99Z, always with 445 (the ecvt). Now, when you scroll down to page 24 for the PHEV, that order code changes to 991/445. Edited October 6, 2022 by Kayza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 6, 2022 Share Posted October 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Kayza said: Escape Active page 8 has engine/trans code for the 2.5l hybrid being 99Z/445. Same thing for ST-Line on page 12, ST-Line Select page 15, ST-Line Elite page 18, and Platinum page 21. The order code if you want to the hybrid 2.5l engine is 99Z, always with 445 (the ecvt). Now, when you scroll down to page 24 for the PHEV, that order code changes to 991/445. That's what I found also, it would be a better package for towing if the eCVT had the better motor made in America. I placed an order on 9/19/22 which has not been accepted yet by Ford. I ordered the premium, tow package and star white. I was able to get 39.7 miles in EV in my '13 CMax rated for 21 miles and can't wait to try the new 37 mile EV rating on the Escape. It would be nice if the battery is improved also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 From the 2023 FWD Escape plug-in specs it has a 221hp combined electric and gas eCVT. All the other 2023 FWD Escape hybrids have 200hp combined. The plug-in eCVT has a more powerful electric motor and the same gas engine hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, GaryG said: From the 2023 FWD Escape plug-in specs it has a 221hp combined electric and gas eCVT. All the other 2023 FWD Escape hybrids have 200hp combined. The plug-in eCVT has a more powerful electric motor and the same gas engine hp. Unchanged from 2022. Hybrid is 200 HP, Plug-in Hybrid 221 HP. Does PHEV actually have a different electric motor or is it all based on drawing more power from the bigger HVB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 31 minutes ago, j2sys said: Unchanged from 2022. Hybrid is 200 HP, Plug-in Hybrid 221 HP. Does PHEV actually have a different electric motor or is it all based on drawing more power from the bigger HVB? Going back even to the 2020 Escape plug-in it's the same 221hp for the FWD so it must be with the bigger battery. The only thing now is the different engine code which is a change from 99Z/445 to 991/445 in the 2023 plug-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chodaddy15 Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) =less power...210 HP vs 221HP last year. Disappointing Edited October 25, 2022 by chodaddy15 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, chodaddy15 said: =less power...210 HP vs 221HP last year. Disappointing Source? Specs are unchanged here - 200HP FHEV, 221HP PHEV: https://www.ford.com/suvs-crossovers/escape/models/escape-plug-in-hybrid/ Meanwhile, the press release seems to be incorrect. Quote Every model in the 2023 Ford Escape SUV lineup, whether powered by one of two available EcoBoost engines or hybrid powertrains, targets an EPA-estimated range of at least 400 miles per tank*. The full hybrid model with front-wheel-drive targets an EPA-estimated range of more than 550 miles. Escape Plug-In Hybrid model** includes Ford’s advanced fourth-generation hybrid propulsion system, which includes a 2.5-liter Atkinson cycle hybrid engine and electronic continuously variable transmission. The front-wheel drive hybrid model is projected to produce a combined system of 210 hp.5 The 2023 Ford Escape SUV Plug-In Hybrid model** targets an EPA-estimated range of 37 miles in electric-only mode.6. Escape Plug-in Hybrid has a Level 1 / Level 2 AC charging port. Using a 110-volt Level 1 charge, the estimated time to fully charge the battery is 10 to 11 hours. Using a 240-volt Level 2 charge, charge time drops to roughly 3.5 hours. https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/25/new-ford-escape-with-advanced-hybrid-engines-and-a-sporty-st-lin.html PHEV is FWD only, and FWD vs AWD doesn't affect HP ratings. Where are the actual updated specs, if they've changed? Edited October 25, 2022 by j2sys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chodaddy15 Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) This is based off the articles and videos released today. The poster beside the PHEV in the video @49 secs even says 210. So I am not sure. Edited October 25, 2022 by chodaddy15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 37 minutes ago, chodaddy15 said: This is based off the articles and videos released today. The poster beside the PHEV in the video @49 secs even says 210. So I am not sure. None of this makes any sense. The press release says "targeting" 180HP for the 1.5L EB, when it's the same currently for sale at 181HP. The display indicates 181HP still. FHEV is currently 200 HP (191 HP for Maverick). Now it's "Targeted 199 horsepower". PHEV is currently 221 HP. Now it's "Targeted 210 horsepower". So what did they change on the powertrain after all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 It may be a change in HP testing or a lower HP from a higher ethanol content the engine is rated for. Ethanol is considered renewable energy and E15 - E-85 could effect HP ratings. The Atkinson cycle 4 cylinder engine HP is drastically effected by ethanol from non-ethanol from my experience. If the new Ford hybrid engines are rated now with E-15 or E-85 that would lower HP output. I don't think the electric motor was involved with the change in combined HP output. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 36 minutes ago, GaryG said: It may be a change in HP testing or a lower HP from a higher ethanol content the engine is rated for. Ethanol is considered renewable energy and E15 - E-85 could effect HP ratings. The Atkinson cycle 4 cylinder engine HP is drastically effected by ethanol from non-ethanol from my experience. If the new Ford hybrid engines are rated now with E-15 or E-85 that would lower HP output. I don't think the electric motor was involved with the change in combined HP output. Ah. Same thing happened to 2022 Mustang, where nebulous “emissions regulations” were blamed. They probably didn’t make any noteworthy changes to the power train. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-mustang-gt-hp-emissions-regulations/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 5:10 PM, j2sys said: Ah. Same thing happened to 2022 Mustang, where nebulous “emissions regulations” were blamed. They probably didn’t make any noteworthy changes to the power train. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-mustang-gt-hp-emissions-regulations/ Another thing to consider is Ford EPA Test may have been with straight 87 octane without ethanol in the past. The EPA may have started requiring 87 octane with 10% ethanol to claim real HP and torque to meet emissions and real HP. I rely on plug-in power when I can and 87 octane without ethanol is better and last much longer than E10. If I needed the extra power of the engine it would be better to run recreational straight 87 octane for the most power and fuel economy. Ford could be changing terminology and just using emissions regulations to explain a change in HP using E10. Ford could have changed HP in the gas engine by tuning for better mpg and emissions also. I agree, I don't think it's a big change to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chodaddy15 Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 So what is the combined ice and ev torque on the Escape? 155+129 lb ft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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