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Toyota scrambles for EV reboot with eye on Tesla


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On 11/17/2022 at 12:17 AM, Rick73 said:

 

 

Agree savings diminish as MPG improve, but Prius having the highest rating would be about bragging rights; not unlike power, torque, and towing race for trucks.

I don’t think bragging about fuel efficiency has the impact it once did now that there are affordable electric vehicles.

Also notice how many hybrid buyers have embraced more practical vehicles like Camry and RAV4.

 

On 11/17/2022 at 12:17 AM, Rick73 said:

 

If Prius can achieve around 60 MPG, it also challenges BEV energy cost advantages, particularly on longer trips where BEVs must charge away from home.  Currently my cost would be about 5 cents per mile for a Prius or an efficient BEV ($3.00 per gallon and $0.20 per kWh).  On a long road trip like I just completed, a Prius would cost less in gas than a Tesla 3 to charge.  I have no idea how Toyota will market the Prius, but expect lower cost compared to BEVs will come up.  During reveal Toyota stated BEVs are great, and that they are working on them, but that during transition a variety of vehicles are needed; particularly affordable ones.

 

Improved looks and power may win over more buyers than fuel savings anyway.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41974283/2023-toyota-prius-preview/

Many of Prius’ former  buyers have already moved on to other vehicles, they may get some sales for it but nothing like the past…

Im going to stay away from the whole fuel tax replacement subject, it’s a can of worm that I’m sure many governments will struggle with in terms of fairness (capped annual fee versus actual use)

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12 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Yikes, did someone say something about backseat headroom? Well, I guess that's not why one buys a Prius...

That's like the commuter we're getting rid of, a '09 Kia Rio. Rear passengers have their heads in the roof, and their necks get cooked by the sun lol. Our maverick is so much better. That being said, while the rear headroom on this looks kinda terrible, I think it's a compelling update overall. Didn't expect the Prius to become Toyota's best looking car lol. 

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19 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Im going to stay away from the whole fuel tax replacement subject, it’s a can of worm that I’m sure many governments will struggle with in terms of fairness (capped annual fee versus actual use)

 

Yeah it will be a shit show, I'm going to assume people who drive longer distances are lower income (can't afford to live near cities etc) and I'm also assuming that hybrid work scheules are also cutting back on useage of fossil fuels with people who work those.

 

I got my Bronco back at the end of May and It's been almost 6 months since I've had it and I only have just over 4500 miles on it-I have a short commute to work (26 miles round trip two times a week) and we use it on the weekends, but its all local driving. I've gone on two trips that where 200+ miles plus round trip with it also. I think I'll be lucky to hit 8-9K on it by next Memorial day. 

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19 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I don’t think bragging about fuel efficiency has the impact it once did now that there are affordable electric vehicles.

Also notice how many hybrid buyers have embraced more practical vehicles like Camry and RAV4.

 

Many of Prius’ former  buyers have already moved on to other vehicles, they may get some sales for it but nothing like the past…

 

I’m not aware of many practical BEVs with starting price as low as the previous Prius (starting mid $20s), so comparing options for most people with limited budgets may not be straight forward.  In any case, Toyota’s premise that there is presently a need for hybrids begs the question of just how efficient does a hybrid need to be before it is as green or greener than some BEVs?  Is a wasteful and inefficient BEV actually greener than an efficient hybrid?  Some seem more interested in eliminating all ICE as quickly as possible on principle than reducing CO2.

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1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

In any case, Toyota’s premise that there is presently a need for hybrids

 

Toyota's premise is "we as a company were blindsided by the fact that the global automotive industry is transitioning to 100% ZEV, and that fuel cell non-commercial vehicles are a fool's errand. So let's promote an obsolete technology while we belatedly revise our business strategy".

 

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3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

I’m not aware of many practical BEVs with starting price as low as the previous Prius (starting mid $20s), so comparing options for most people with limited budgets may not be straight forward.  In any case, Toyota’s premise that there is presently a need for hybrids begs the question of just how efficient does a hybrid need to be before it is as green or greener than some BEVs?  Is a wasteful and inefficient BEV actually greener than an efficient hybrid?  Some seem more interested in eliminating all ICE as quickly as possible on principle than reducing CO2.

I can’t see it living long in the US, Toyota has no intention of selling in Europe or globally like Asia pacific, it’s been developed in spit of the much tougher CAFE regs for cars.

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I can’t see it living long in the US, Toyota has no intention of selling in Europe or globally like Asia pacific, it’s been developed in spit of the much tougher CAFE regs for cars.

 

Yes, reports indicate in Europe it will be offered only as PHEV, so they will skip the lower-cost HEV there.  Toyota site states it will have over 50% greater EV range than previous, and since battery is listed at 13.6 kWh, it may get close to 50 miles.  PHEV performance is higher too so a win-win except for higher cost.  Do not know what price premium for plug-in will be but it may be worth it over standard Prius in US.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/621989/2023-toyota-prius-unveiled-europe-as-plug-in-hybrid-only/

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43 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

 

Yes, reports indicate in Europe it will be offered only as PHEV, so they will skip the lower-cost HEV there.  Toyota site states it will have over 50% greater EV range than previous, and since battery is listed at 13.6 kWh, it may get close to 50 miles.  PHEV performance is higher too so a win-win except for higher cost.  Do not know what price premium for plug-in will be but it may be worth it over standard Prius in US.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/621989/2023-toyota-prius-unveiled-europe-as-plug-in-hybrid-only/

But see, the PHEVs don’t even work for Europe now that they have defined ZEV zones around cities, Europe also rates PHEVs in worse case depleted battery emission cycle…..that really put the end to the anticipated long run of PHEVs replacing diesels and why the big push to BEVs.

 

Its frustrating that Europe assumes that everyone buying a PHEV will just drive it around with flat batteries but that’s the way their lawmakers are now steering the conversation towards full electrics. I think it’s a mistake but also understand the politics.

 

HEVs and PHEVs will work well for the rest of us outside of Europe and China, giving us exposure to the benefits of electrification without the need to buy a huge battery to feel comfortable about range.

 

Tesla is coming up the pike with a supposed $25K subcompact designated 2 for now, it will usher in a 50% cost saving on the skateboard that will snap a lot of heads around as it lowers the cost of future EVs.

Edited by jpd80
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4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I can’t see it living long in the US, Toyota has no intention of selling in Europe or globally like Asia pacific, it’s been developed in spit of the much tougher CAFE regs for cars.

Not sure your basis for Toyota not selling in Europe and Asia. Recently went to Europe and observed many Toyota hybrid models not available in USA. Not sure of the "platform", but a few of the "top hats" don't look like they would work well in the USA. Although I am not a fan of Prius styling, they are distinctive for virtue signaling and are quite practical for daily use, mixed use and distance travel. With BEVs in the forefront, virtue signaling with a Prius is now a thing of the past. 

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59 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Recently went to Europe and observed many Toyota hybrid models not available in USA. Not sure of the "platform", but a few of the "top hats" don't look like they would work well in the USA. 

 

It's interesting that Toyota is pitching a specific variant of Corolla Hybrid wagon/estate as a commercial vehicle in Europe. 

 

corolla-commercial-boot-space-doors-open

Corolla+Commercial+6+large_tcm-3060-2334

 

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3 hours ago, paintguy said:

Not sure your basis for Toyota not selling in Europe and Asia. Recently went to Europe and observed many Toyota hybrid models not available in USA. 

You misunderstood, Toyota is already advising that the new Prius hybrid will not be sold in Europe or Asia pacific.

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On 11/18/2022 at 1:02 PM, jpd80 said:

I can’t see it living long in the US, Toyota has no intention of selling in Europe or globally like Asia pacific, it’s been developed in spit of the much tougher CAFE regs for cars.

The Prius isn't even Toyota's best-selling hybrid in the US, the Rav 4 Hybrid is.

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On 11/20/2022 at 7:42 AM, AGR said:

The Prius isn't even Toyota's best-selling hybrid in the US, the Rav 4 Hybrid is.

And that’s what I’ve been saying to Rick73, Toyota hybrid buyers went main stream a few years back

also surprise that a Corolla hybrid has a commercial version, Yaris morphed into a crossover, that was a smart move.

Edited by jpd80
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