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Motor Trend 2023 Truck of the Year


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35 minutes ago, PS197TT said:


While on the surface that may seem substantial, but it’s more of a skewed stat.  A better way to determine its usefulness is to measure the amount of fuel used while idling.  Then we would have a much clearer picture as to how many ounces of fuel start/stop saves.  

 

 

Not sure what part you don't get about my having to buy about 12-14% less gas during my weekly fuel-up after a typical week of driving using start-stop (I've run weekly tests both ways to see how much my mpg improves). But if you are convinced I'm not really having to pump less gas and that no matter what the driving conditions might be start-stop provides no benefit, then I guess no real-world proof will ever be enough. 

 

Again, my personal driving habits are on the extreme side of providing start-stop benefits, but the benefits are real.

Edited by Gurgeh
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43 minutes ago, PS197TT said:


While on the surface that may seem substantial, but it’s more of a skewed stat.  A better way to determine its usefulness is to measure the amount of fuel used while idling.  Then we would have a much clearer picture as to how many ounces of fuel start/stop saves.  

 


Oh no not at all.  I just don’t think it results in the actual savings that some try and claim.  


You have actual real world evidence from two people AND you have the EPA giving mfrs CAFE credit for it (which is why it can’t be turned off).  The savings are real.
 

Does it vary a lot depending on how you drive?  Of course.  For some the savings might be negligible but for others it can be quite significant.

But if you think people who drive in stop and go traffic are a skewed statistic you’re dreaming.

 

Just say you don’t like it and move on.

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49 minutes ago, PS197TT said:

ICE is still vastly superior and the Lightning, while a cool experiment, is a niche vehicle that isn’t very good at being a truck.  Once they (the auto industry as a whole) work out the major compromises though, EVs will be a viable alternative. 


That’s because you have a skewed view of how people use pickups today.  Most F150s are family vehicles that never or rarely tow and only haul things back and forth to Home Depot or the dump occasionally.   I haul mostly lumber with an occasional load of mulch or rock or stone or tools or furniture - almost always less than 50 miles round trip.  And I never drive more than 50 miles a day and I can charge in my garage every night.  A BEV pickup works perfectly for me and millions of others.

 

You seem to have this myopic view that everyone drives like you.

 

Or you’re just a troll.

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3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

You're right PS197TT, that's why F-150 Lightning is such an important product, and part of the reason it won Motor Trend 2023 TOTY. It's such a good pickup truck that customers don't have to think about its efficiency. F-150 Lightning essentially makes ICE powered pickup trucks obsolete.

 

Motor Trend's title for its TOTY article sums it up best. "A Revolution Hiding in Plain Sight".

It may be great and it might not be great. I've seen some of the heavy towing tests they've done with it and range is seriously lacking. I'm sure in time that will improve, but as a serious work truck they've got a way to go.

 

Motor Trend awards the company who spends the most on advertising. Ford must've made a big ad buy. Not saying the vehicle is bad, but I'd never trust awards given by a for-profit magazine. Historic winners include the Chevy Citation and Renault Alliance. Just sayin' lol

 

Demand with early adopters has been good, however when you get into pickup trucks you also have to realize the "red meat" of the market is in "red America" and if you've spent any time on social media you'll notice that a big chunk of conservatives hate these things. Now you'll say that doesn't matter because we'll force 'em into it, but I really see this as just another line dividing half the country once again. Elon Musk has been trying to tap into that other half by displaying his conservative credentials. The conservatives like how he triggers the woke left, but they still don't want his cars.

 

Right now consumers still have a choice, but in a few years when they start regulating what we can and cannot drive it's going to be a huge battle. Living in and dealing with people from rural areas all over this country I can tell you with fact they feel BEV= woke liberal. I know the politics behind this are not mentioned, but it's going to be a deal. Give it a few more years if you don't believe me now.

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1 hour ago, PS197TT said:

But it’s clear that wanting EVs to match the bar set by ICE is unreasonable.  Personally I don’t think it’s asking too much to have an EV to match the range/“refill” times or the price of ICE vehicles.  


No it’s unreasonable to say that EV trucks don’t work for anyone just because it doesn’t work for some use cases.   If I only drive 50 miles a day and I charge at home overnight why do I care that it only has a 300 mile range or that it takes longer to charge?  
 

It’s like cordless tools.  For someone like me who uses them a few minutes to an hour a day they’re great.  For someone who drives nails 8-10 hours a day they suck.

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1 hour ago, 2005Explorer said:

It may be great and it might not be great. I've seen some of the heavy towing tests they've done with it and range is seriously lacking. I'm sure in time that will improve, but as a serious work truck they've got a way to go.

 

Motor Trend awards the company who spends the most on advertising. Ford must've made a big ad buy. Not saying the vehicle is bad, but I'd never trust awards given by a for-profit magazine. Historic winners include the Chevy Citation and Renault Alliance. Just sayin' lol

 

Demand with early adopters has been good, however when you get into pickup trucks you also have to realize the "red meat" of the market is in "red America" and if you've spent any time on social media you'll notice that a big chunk of conservatives hate these things. Now you'll say that doesn't matter because we'll force 'em into it, but I really see this as just another line dividing half the country once again. Elon Musk has been trying to tap into that other half by displaying his conservative credentials. The conservatives like how he triggers the woke left, but they still don't want his cars.

 

Right now consumers still have a choice, but in a few years when they start regulating what we can and cannot drive it's going to be a huge battle. Living in and dealing with people from rural areas all over this country I can tell you with fact they feel BEV= woke liberal. I know the politics behind this are not mentioned, but it's going to be a deal. Give it a few more years if you don't believe me now.


You’re right about hard core truck owners who tow a lot or drive long distances.  But why do you and several others think that represents the majority of F150 owners?  You guys just don’t understand how the pickup market has changed the last 20 years with four door trucks and improved fuel economy and all the luxury amenities and ride comfort.  Even most work trucks are driven locally and don’t tow much (builders, contractors, electricians, plumbers, painters, pest control, etc etc ).

 

Why can’t you just admit it works great for a lot of buyers but obviously not for everyone (yet)?

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1 hour ago, 2005Explorer said:

I know the politics behind this are not mentioned, but it's going to be a deal. Give it a few more years if you don't believe me now.

 

Motor Trend didn't exaggerate when it said that F-150 Lightning will "make the coming electric revolution work for most everyone". Implicit in "most everyone" is almost the entire spectrum of political thought.

 

Who knows, maybe the broad appeal F-150 Lightning and the fact that it represents American excellence in the global automotive industry may even help bridge political divides in the USA. ?  

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41 minutes ago, akirby said:


You’re right about hard core truck owners who tow a lot or drive long distances.  But why do you and several others think that represents the majority of F150 owners?  You guys just don’t understand how the pickup market has changed the last 20 years with four door trucks and improved fuel economy and all the luxury amenities and ride comfort.  Even most work trucks are driven locally and don’t tow much (builders, contractors, electricians, plumbers, painters, pest control, etc etc ).

 

Why can’t you just admit it works great for a lot of buyers but obviously not for everyone (yet)?

10-4. Today's F-150 is the Crown Victoria reimagined: avaiable V8, RWD 6 passenger shoulder & leg room, heap big trunk.

Edited by Chrisgb
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On 1/1/2023 at 10:59 AM, rperez817 said:

I agree with you that energy efficiency does matter significantly. But "ideal" is the enemy of "good" here. A very efficient passenger car BEV that doesn't appeal to consumers will unfortunately fail to accelerate the transition out of the ICE age. By the same token, automakers may be reticent to offer these kinds of very efficient BEV at all if they are not as profitable compared to less efficient pickup truck and SUV/crossover BEV.

 

 

rperez817, while I agree completely that “ideal” is the enemy of “good”, the very same can also be said for the opposite point of view; so to me it doesn’t make a very strong argument either way.  In my opinion the “ideal” of eliminating ICE as soon as possible at any cost to society will limit how much “good” we could do if open to other possibilities.  Shorter-term anyway.

 

I suggest we could learn from what is happening in Europe, even though their auto and EV markets are different.  Their list of top 50 BEVs suggest smaller size in general compare to NA, which would help keep costs down, yet many buyers feel they are being priced out of market.  Stellantis CEO Tavares has addressed this multiple times even though they are well represented in the top 50 list.

 

The issue is further complicated when the simplest way to lower BEV costs to make them affordable to the masses is to downsize to tiny urban-size cars which many European feel are unsafe.  Apparently there is some pushback starting to develop there, and they don’t even have to deal with 8,000- ~ 10,000-pound pickups running around neighborhoods.  That some trucks can reach 60 under 3 seconds doesn’t help either when mixed with much smaller vehicles.

 

I believe small cars like the Mitsubishi BEV would do much better here in NA if buyers were not afraid for their safety and that of their families.  Larger and heavier  trucks will just make matters worse because we will simply shift the minimum acceptable size upward which has detrimental affect on pretty much everything.

 

 

P.S. — I like Lightning, though don’t need one, but find it a stretch to say it “obsoletes” ICE pickups, at least at this time.  Lightning can’t even replace a RAM 1500 used by a family member of mine to tow a small horse trailer to competitions, and certainly can’t replace Super Duty or Cummins 1-ton trucks for most of what they are required to do.  No doubt it meets many needs, but falls short of many others in my opinion.

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8 hours ago, akirby said:


You’re right about hard core truck owners who tow a lot or drive long distances.  But why do you and several others think that represents the majority of F150 owners?  You guys just don’t understand how the pickup market has changed the last 20 years with four door trucks and improved fuel economy and all the luxury amenities and ride comfort.  Even most work trucks are driven locally and don’t tow much (builders, contractors, electricians, plumbers, painters, pest control, etc etc ).

 

Why can’t you just admit it works great for a lot of buyers but obviously not for everyone (yet)?

I’m not saying that a BEV F-150 won’t work great for a lot of people, but what I am saying is there are places where a lot of conventional F-150s are sold today that are politically biased against electric vehicles. Some of the more practical reasons might be the fact that infrastructure is severely lacking to support them and in some cases in the heartland of the country it could be years before this situation is fixed if it ever gets fixed. Selling BEVs isn’t a problem in urban areas or costal states, but the F-Series isn’t the best selling new vehicles in those areas. You have to convince red America that it’s time to go green and join the liberal city folk. Now the US Government can certainly force the issue and take choice away, but whoever does that will pay a huge political price. If you need an example of how this all goes down see the current state of gun control in our country and the division it creates.

 

Basically what it all comes down to is you have to convince the places on this map that BEV is the way to go in the next few years. Personally I’d like more focus on improving hybrids and making them more fuel efficient and more available for the long term transition. The map attached is the most commonly registered vehicle in each state according to KBB in 2021. They have a lot of rural America to convince that BEV is the way to go. That’s pretty much my only point.

 

This is an excellent video by the LA Times which digs into the issue a bit deeper. Worth a watch. 

 

 

2B314627-4EB5-4738-B120-525F620F92C4.jpeg

Edited by 2005Explorer
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43 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

I’m not saying that a BEV F-150 won’t work great for a lot of people, but what I am saying is there are places where a lot of conventional F-150s are sold today that are politically biased against electric vehicles. Some of the more practical reasons might be the fact that infrastructure is severely lacking to support them and in some cases in the heartland of the country it could be years before this situation is fixed if it ever gets fixed. Selling BEVs isn’t a problem in urban areas or costal states, but the F-Series isn’t the best selling new vehicles in those areas. You have to convince red America that it’s time to go green and join the liberal city folk. Now the US Government can certainly force the issue and take choice away, but whoever does that will pay a huge political price. If you need an example of how this all goes down see the current state of gun control in our country and the division it creates.

 

Basically what it all comes down to is you have to convince the places on this map that BEV is the way to go in the next few years. Personally I’d like more focus on improving hybrids and making them more fuel efficient and more available for the long term transition. The map attached is the most commonly registered vehicle in each state according to KBB in 2021. They have a lot of rural America to convince that BEV is the way to go. That’s pretty much my only point.


I don’t disagree with most of that.  I’ve said repeatedly that rural America doesn’t have the infrastructure to support widespread BEV adoption.  Older homes can’t support overnight charging and owners don’t want to or can’t spend the money to upgrade.  Same for rural electric infrastructure and public chargers.  It will take a long time to convert those areas.

 

I’m also sick of people on both sides who oppose things just because the other party supports it - usually with no factual support whatsoever.

 

The answer is a mix of BEVs and hybrids but that doesn’t fit either extremist position.   Saying that a lightning can’t tow 10k lbs 800 miles at 20 degrees is a straw man argument.  It’s like saying a Boxster is a failure because it can’t fit 4 people or that a Super Duty is a failure because it can’t corner on a racetrack.

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1 hour ago, 2005Explorer said:

Basically what it all comes down to is you have to convince the places on this map that BEV is the way to go in the next few years. 

 

What Motor Trend is saying is that if any motor vehicle can "convince the places on this map that BEV is the way to go in the next few years", Ford F-150 Lightning is it.

 

Jim Farley said this in 2021, confirming Motor Trend's conclusion.

We did a survey recently and asked customers who were intending to buy a pickup truck: if you were going to buy an electric pickup truck, who would you buy it from? Who would you expect to do a good job to come to the market? Ford was by far the most preferred brand. Unlike sedans, where Tesla was a preferred brand. We were way above Tesla [in trucks], because of our history, and we know this customer.

Edited by rperez817
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1 hour ago, akirby said:

The answer is a mix of BEVs and hybrids but that doesn’t fit either extremist position.   Saying that a lightning can’t tow 10k lbs 800 miles at 20 degrees is a straw man argument.  It’s like saying a Boxster is a failure because it can’t fit 4 people or that a Super Duty is a failure because it can’t corner on a racetrack.

 

This is the quote of the, very young, year.  Very well put.

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4 hours ago, akirby said:


I don’t disagree with most of that.  I’ve said repeatedly that rural America doesn’t have the infrastructure to support widespread BEV adoption.  Older homes can’t support overnight charging and owners don’t want to or can’t spend the money to upgrade.  Same for rural electric infrastructure and public chargers.  It will take a long time to convert those areas.

 

I’m also sick of people on both sides who oppose things just because the other party supports it - usually with no factual support whatsoever.

 

The answer is a mix of BEVs and hybrids but that doesn’t fit either extremist position.   Saying that a lightning can’t tow 10k lbs 800 miles at 20 degrees is a straw man argument.  It’s like saying a Boxster is a failure because it can’t fit 4 people or that a Super Duty is a failure because it can’t corner on a racetrack.

Well said,

It’s definitely up to people to decide what works for their own  situation, especially if you think of Lightning 

as the ultimate electric powertrain option on top of Ecoboost, Powerboost and 5.0 V8.


 

 

 

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2 hours ago, PS197TT said:

Use hybrids and PHEVs as a stepping stone.

 

Beyond the extreme short-term, PHEV is a dead end. It amounts to automakers forcing customers to carry around stuff they don't need. Furthermore, ICCT recently reported that in the U.S. market, PHEV "use far more gasoline in the real world than regulatory agencies account for" and that BEV production costs are dropping faster than PHEV. Plug-in hybrids use more gas than estimated, dieselgate whistleblower says | Electrek 

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12 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

I’m not saying that a BEV F-150 won’t work great for a lot of people, but what I am saying is there are places where a lot of conventional F-150s are sold today that are politically biased against electric vehicles. Some of the more practical reasons might be the fact that infrastructure is severely lacking to support them and in some cases in the heartland of the country it could be years before this situation is fixed if it ever gets fixed. Selling BEVs isn’t a problem in urban areas or costal states, but the F-Series isn’t the best selling new vehicles in those areas. You have to convince red America that it’s time to go green and join the liberal city folk. Now the US Government can certainly force the issue and take choice away, but whoever does that will pay a huge political price. If you need an example of how this all goes down see the current state of gun control in our country and the division it creates.

 

Basically what it all comes down to is you have to convince the places on this map that BEV is the way to go in the next few years. Personally I’d like more focus on improving hybrids and making them more fuel efficient and more available for the long term transition. The map attached is the most commonly registered vehicle in each state according to KBB in 2021. They have a lot of rural America to convince that BEV is the way to go. That’s pretty much my only point.

 

This is an excellent video by the LA Times which digs into the issue a bit deeper. Worth a watch. 

 

 

2B314627-4EB5-4738-B120-525F620F92C4.jpeg

it is a journey, enjoy the ride

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3 hours ago, PS197TT said:

We  don’t need to go full EV right now.  I don’t understand the aggressive push. 


Who said right now? Last time I checked it was 2030 or 2035-7 to 12 years from now. 
 

What it boils down to is the auto industry is a basically a long lead time industry-what is being working on in January 2023 won’t see the streets till 2026 at the earliest and that is if it’s something minor like a new bumper/fascia or 2028 if it’s something major like a brand new drivetrain. 
 

ICE isn’t going away anytime soon, but BEVs will be rapidly growing part of the market. I’d venture to say that at least 50% or more by 2030. ICE will still be part of the market in cases that it is actually needed. By 2035, 80% of the car market should be be covered by BEVs with only minor adjustments in behavior in owning them. 

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3 hours ago, PS197TT said:


You’re going to convince the most people by making EVs that are….good and on par with what they have now.  And by “on par” that means things important to buyers like range, refill times, refill availability, etc.  Telling people that to extend their range in the “cold” to just not use your heat is not something people are interested in.  


Here we go again.  Battery technology is to the point that it works for a large subset of buyers as previously outlined.  The folks that tow heavy loads or drive long distances or can’t charge at home need to wait for the next Gen batteries with more range, faster charging and lower cost.

 

The only question is how long it will take to get to the next Gen solution that covers all price points with sufficient grid capacity and public charging infrastructure.

Extremists think that’s 2030 or 2035.   The more rational people that understand the challenges especially in rural areas know that’s not realistic.  But it is coming.

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8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Well said,

It’s definitely up to people to decide what works for their own  situation, especially if you think of Lightning 

as the ultimate electric powertrain option on top of Ecoboost, Powerboost and 5.0 V8.


 

 

 

 

Exactly.  However, a major concern should be that there are many hell-bent on eliminating EcoBoost, Powerboost, and 5.0 V8 choices so that electric powertrain is the only power option left to choose from.  People won’t be able to decide what works best for their own situation when decisions are taken out of their hands.  California’s governor has made it clear that ICE must be eliminated, and wants to do it as soon as possible.

 

I want BEVs to succeed, but on merit in a competitive market where buyers are not forced by politicians, particularly those they didn’t even elect, to buy vehicles they don’t prefer.  On principle alone Americans should have an issue with a California governor having such influence over other states.

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The weird thing to me is the extreme anti-EV people choosing to ignore that the market and manufacturers already made the decision before any mandate from the .gov. I'd understand the outrage if .gov came in and said next year ICE is banned, but it should be clear to anyone that follows the industry even loosely that EV is the future for the vast majority of use cases. There are and will be outliers on the extremes of use, but most of the anti-ev talking points you see on social media are just made up BS. Infrastructure in the middle of the country is a valid concern, there's parts of the country where you can run out of gas/diesel if not paying attention to the "last gas station for X miles" signs, not sure how charging stations compare out in the middle of nowhere.

 

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1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

The weird thing to me is the extreme anti-EV people choosing to ignore that the market and manufacturers already made the decision before any mandate from the .gov. 

 

I generally avoid these conversations because minds/positions are never changed. I have to challenge one thing in this post: "the market...already made the decision"; on what basis can that statement be supported? If EVs are currently 5% of the market, and will be 20% of the market in 2025 (not sure about the percentages, just using these figures for the sake of the point), then by definition the "market" is speaking clearly in favor of IC propulsion based on the stated premise that the "market already made the decision".

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41 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

I generally avoid these conversations because minds/positions are never changed. I have to challenge one thing in this post: "the market...already made the decision"; on what basis can that statement be supported? If EVs are currently 5% of the market, and will be 20% of the market in 2025 (not sure about the percentages, just using these figures for the sake of the point), then by definition the "market" is speaking clearly in favor of IC propulsion based on the stated premise that the "market already made the decision".


I'd point to the vast growth of Tesla (consistent 50% yoy) and huge demand/order numbers on any recent EV release. I'll admit I don't have numbers in front of me, but the sales and demand seem pretty clear. Obviously trends can change, but almost every manufacturer besides Toyota seems to think that's where we're going.

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1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

The weird thing to me is the extreme anti-EV people choosing to ignore that the market and manufacturers already made the decision before any mandate from the .gov. I'd understand the outrage if .gov came in and said next year ICE is banned, but it should be clear to anyone that follows the industry even loosely that EV is the future for the vast majority of use cases. There are and will be outliers on the extremes of use, but most of the anti-ev talking points you see on social media are just made up BS. Infrastructure in the middle of the country is a valid concern, there's parts of the country where you can run out of gas/diesel if not paying attention to the "last gas station for X miles" signs, not sure how charging stations compare out in the middle of nowhere.

 


One difference is I can bring a couple of 5 gallon gas cans with me in those extreme circumstances or have someone bring me gas and I can instantly refuel.  Can’t do that with a BEV.

 

Like everything else you have people on both sides of the issue who cherry pick flaws to disprove the other position.  The anti-EV arguments are as stupid as the 100% EVs right away arguments.  Neither are practical.

 

The “PHEVs are bad” argument is particularly stupid.  For someone like me who drives less than 20 miles per day 95% of the time a PHEV would result in almost zero gasoline usage.  They’re only bad if your goal is 100% BEV adoption.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

I generally avoid these conversations because minds/positions are never changed. I have to challenge one thing in this post: "the market...already made the decision"; on what basis can that statement be supported? If EVs are currently 5% of the market, and will be 20% of the market in 2025 (not sure about the percentages, just using these figures for the sake of the point), then by definition the "market" is speaking clearly in favor of IC propulsion based on the stated premise that the "market already made the decision".


It’s been posted that California is seeing a significant year to year increase in BEV registrations over the past couple years. 
 

It boils down to the chicken or Egg situation-the more BEVs on the market will increase the amount of charging stations. I’m starting to see an inflection point where I live- Tesla super chargers at local convenience gas stations, level two charging at a new Target and even charging stations in higher end apartment complexes. 
 

The trends are showing that BEVs are becoming more accepted in the market place and adding more models will increase market penetration. 

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