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Motor Trend 2023 Truck of the Year


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46 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:


What you think and what is actually happening with the market are two completely different things. Don’t assume what you want is what the rest of the market wants. 
 

 

Don't assume what those of you in the most liberal and urban part of the country want is what the rest of the country wants.

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4 hours ago, tbone said:


This isn’t exactly true.  Ford, or any other manufacturer, have the ability to produce what they want, however due to long product development cycles the manufacturer is forced to hedge against the ever changing mpg and other environmental standards which are set by the government.  If not for these standards, would we even be debating this?   
 

Im not anti-EV and have no intention of debating the merits of government standards, but EVs are a direct response to government intervention and not free market dynamics IMO.  Now the manufacturers are faced with straddling the two technologies to meet consumer demand, which certainly looks like a slippery slope for them to me. 

 

Current EV capability does not meet my expectations because I want a zero compromise vehicle, but at some point those compromises are likely to be resolved and I will consider one. 

 


As a counterpoint to that, I'd point out current EV offerings that were in development and on market before any mandates or guidelines that "force" EV were being talked about or implemented. I mean, if there were no standards would we all still be driving around in 200 hp 10mpg carb'd big blocks with no emissions controls? I'd like to think the market in some part forced efficiency and power gains.

That's fair on current EV, it doesn't meet my use case either at this point in time mostly because no one makes a BEV in the class truck I need for work. My point was mostly in regards to the people, like someone in this thread, that make things up and claim it as fact while ignoring real data about where the market is going.

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2 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

As a counterpoint to that, I'd point out current EV offerings that were in development and on market before any mandates or guidelines that "force" EV were being talked about or implemented.

 

Thank you Captainp4, you are absolutely correct. F-150 Lightning is a perfect example. Ford didn't make it such an appealing product because some government regulation "forced" it to, as there are no such regulations. Ford did so because it knows its strengths (one of which is pickup trucks), and it knows the direction the global automotive industry is heading (one element being 100% electric vehicles).

 

That's why Motor Trend said the following, which is completely accurate.

The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning is the first EV pickup to appeal directly to the existing truck market, doing its job so convincingly that it's our 2023 MotorTrend Truck of the Year.

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the reality is that around 70% of the 200,000 orders for Lightning are coming from people buying their first F150,

so saying that Lightning appeals directly to the existing truck market is a little inaccurate.

 

IMO, Lightning is something new that’s drawing in more buyers for a variety of reasons with some overlap but

theres clearly more work to be done on speed of charging and range when towing (which becomes about  a third).

 

It seems far more likely that early adopters want a nice big EV that works around town as an alternative to a big SUV

but with the ability to do occasional towing when required. ( but not sustained max towing on a continuing basis)

 

 

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

That's why Motor Trend said the following, which is completely accurate.

 

 

 

As a truck owner, I cannot agree that the Motor Trend statement about the F-150 Lightning is accurate. I believe most sales are not existing F-150 owners, but are new customers, so hardly appealing to the existing truck market. Certainly doesn't appeal to me. Based on it's limited range when towing, which is what much of the truck market is used for, I also question that it does the job convincingly.

 

For those that want a daily driver around town, it will work, but you have lots of options for that type of use. For those of us that use trucks, for work and distance, the Lightning has a long way to go before it meets our needs.

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1 hour ago, Rangers09 said:


Based on it's limited range when towing, which is what much of the truck market is used for,


Not around Atlanta.   Super Duty yes but the vast majority of F150, Ram and Silvererras don’t tow at all.  The ones who do are usually towing small boats locally.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

 

As a truck owner, I cannot agree that the Motor Trend statement about the F-150 Lightning is accurate. I believe most sales are not existing F-150 owners, but are new customers, so hardly appealing to the existing truck market. Certainly doesn't appeal to me. Based on it's limited range when towing, which is what much of the truck market is used for, I also question that it does the job convincingly.

 

For those that want a daily driver around town, it will work, but you have lots of options for that type of use. For those of us that use trucks, for work and distance, the Lightning has a long way to go before it meets our needs.

A lot of F150 only ever see groceries in back and maybe occasional towing.

Lightning really needs Tesla’s 800 volt fast charging and bigger battery pack.

 

If BEV F150 takes off, I’m wondering if Ford moves buyers that tow with their F150 over to SD /heavy half ton

to avoid CAFE - be that a lighter SD or just a renamed F150 with heavy tow package with +8,500 GCWR….

Maybe discussion for another thread (IMO, Ford could make heavy half ton work where others failed)

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8 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Glad you got a laugh, but smart automakers recognize that not only is an all-electric future not "completely ridiculous" (just the opposite), but that their long-term survival depends on exiting the ICE age. The sooner, the better IMO.

Hey look, you finally put a qualifier in there instead implying a statement of fact.  That’s progress.  
 

8 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Ford Motor Company fortunately is committed to an all-electric future and made the following statement at the COP26 conference in 2021. At the rate of BEV adoption nowadays, I wouldn't be surprised if Ford has an all-electric vehicle lineup in its "leading markets" of North America, Europe, and China closer to 2030.


I could give two shits about Ford’s virtue signaling. I would much prefer they focus on building vehicles the customer wants, which will include EVs and ICE vehicles.  If they had a 100% EV lineup by 2030, I would say they will be severely limiting their customer base, because I think a large portion of the country will still not be ready for them due to a number of circumstances. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. 

Edited by tbone
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14 hours ago, ehaase said:

Don't assume what those of you in the most liberal and urban part of the country want is what the rest of the country wants.

 

Nice way to assume how I vote and where I live

 

Anyways-as for the politics end of this, CAFE has been around for what? Almost 50 years now?

 

PHEVs and HEVs are a dead end-there is no huge increase on the horizon to make them more efficient since they are already saddled with a drivetrain that loses anywhere from 40-60% of its energy potential vs a drivetrain that only loses 20%. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by silvrsvt
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3 hours ago, PS197TT said:

automakers should be focusing heavily on vehicles that appeal to the largest portion of the market and would actually have an impact.  

 

Correct. In the U.S. market, that means focusing on BEV in the SUV/crossover and pickup truck segments. Ford is off to a great start in both segments with Mustang Mach-E and F-150 Lightning.

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3 hours ago, PS197TT said:

If you put a Mach E and an Escape PHEV next to each other and educate, without bias, the pros and cons of each...

 

Then participants will immediately ask "why is Ford producing fake electric cars (aka PHEV), built for lab tests and tax breaks, not real driving"?

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26 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Then participants will immediately ask "why is Ford producing fake electric cars (aka PHEV), built for lab tests and tax breaks, not real driving"?

 

Or they completely ignore the fact that BEVs provide a far superior driving experience then a hybrid does.

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Top 10 best selling PHEV list, at least from this source, suggest there is presently a significant difference in initial cost, so not a direct comparison.  BEVs with larger batteries for added range buyers prefer seem more expensive.

 

https://www.greencars.com/expert-insights/best-selling-plug-in-hybrids

 

I expect BEV will become more affordable with time, but believe PHEV could also improve in design, performance, and cost.  IMO it’s impossible to predict how much PHEV improvement may have been possible if development is essentially shut down by government mandates.

 

 

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ICE powered F150 will be in production through at least the end of 2033 and ICE powered Super Duty will be in production through at least the end of 2034, so it seems it is premature to panic about the issue. Who knows what world will be like then? I likely will have purchased my final vehicle by then. 

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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Or they completely ignore the fact that BEVs provide a far superior driving experience then a hybrid does.


Or you completely ignore the challenges and inconveniences of charging a BEV especially in rural areas and on long trips.  Just because it’s theoretically possible doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

 

It’s possible to heat your house using 20 lb propane tanks but it’s damned inconvenient.

 

It’s fair to argue that a HEV is just as good as a PHEV for 80% of use cases, but for people who do not want a BEV and can charge overnight and drive less than 30 miles a day it will cut gasoline usage and emissions drastically - which I thought was the goal.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous to even discuss 100% BEVs until the next gen batteries that can charge faster and we have sufficient public charging infrastructure EVERYWHERE not just in large cities and interstates.  Even then there will be exceptions required.

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2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Then participants will immediately ask "why is Ford producing fake electric cars (aka PHEV), built for lab tests and tax breaks, not real driving"?


Not all of them, going to depend where they live. Majority of people I know in the Midwest, Canada or PNW and south would say this is perfect, I can drive everyday and not use any fuel yet when I want to go on a weekend road trip I don't have to stop for 40 min every 250miles. In Southern California or East coast they would think it was a waste as you say.

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41 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:


Not all of them, going to depend where they live. Majority of people I know in the Midwest, Canada or PNW and south would say this is perfect, I can drive everyday and not use any fuel yet when I want to go on a weekend road trip I don't have to stop for 40 min every 250miles. In Southern California or East coast they would think it was a waste as you say.


This is what I’ve been trying to say.  What works in some areas doesn’t work in others.

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12 hours ago, akirby said:


Not around Atlanta.   Super Duty yes but the vast majority of F150, Ram and Silvererras don’t tow at all.  The ones who do are usually towing small boats locally.

 

 

 

Probably not many trucks in downtown Vancouver, since parking is a challenge, but out in the suburbs, while many are used as daily drivers, many of them are also used for weekend trips with small trailers < 10,000 lbs a number of times a year. We also have lots of them towing utility trailers and work trailers. Note - around here, F-250's are a very rare sight, so they transition from F-150 to F-350/450's, so most of the small trailers are towed by F-150's. 

 

Yes, we have many BEV's locally, but mostly used as daily drivers around town, as during the Christmas period, when we had some cold weather, the local news had multiple stories showing large queues of BEV's waiting 3+ hrs to charge, when they tried to go out of town. With respect to charging stations, Tesla are currently installing about 8 stations in our city of about 100,000 so we will have about a dozen available throughout the city. Our local infrastructure has a long way to go, before BEV's can be effectively used as more than a daily driver.

 

Plus, once you get out of the suburbs, most of the trucks, even F-150's, are used for some type of work and/or towing.

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3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Then participants will immediately ask "why is Ford producing fake electric cars (aka PHEV), built for lab tests and tax breaks, not real driving"?

 

Once my wife's "Fake" 2023 Escape PHEV arrives, when we don't take the F-450, we will enjoy driving past the queues of BEV's going out of town, as they await an available charging station.

 

You may consider our latest order as a fake, but based on our needs analysis, it is the best overall option when considering usage, which will be about 75% short trips around town, with the remainder longer journeys out of town, without the 5th wheel, with R/T distances up to 1,000 miles. Any more than that and we take the F-450, for comfort and storage. Not aware of a BEV that gets 500 miles without having to charge.

 

Technology is great, but the key deliverable should be providing the specifications that customers require. At this time, a BEV doesn't meet our requirements, so PHEV is filling the gap.

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1 hour ago, akirby said:


Or you completely ignore the challenges and inconveniences of charging a BEV especially in rural areas and on long trips.  Just because it’s theoretically possible doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

 

It’s possible to heat your house using 20 lb propane tanks but it’s damned inconvenient.

 

It’s fair to argue that a HEV is just as good as a PHEV for 80% of use cases, but for people who do not want a BEV and can charge overnight and drive less than 30 miles a day it will cut gasoline usage and emissions drastically - which I thought was the goal.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous to even discuss 100% BEVs until the next gen batteries that can charge faster and we have sufficient public charging infrastructure EVERYWHERE not just in large cities and interstates.  Even then there will be exceptions required.

 

Here lies the issue-the arguments here are based on what is happening over the next 12-24 months, instead of focusing in on the long term....2030 is still 7 years away. There will be more BEVS to buy as we go along, but you'll still be able to get an ICE powered vehicle till 2030 at least and well if a BEV is such an aberration to you, just keep driving it till it falls apart or the government bans you from using it. I think most people aren't replacing cars every 5 years like the norm was 40 years ago. 

With that said, yes there are issues that need to be addressed with BEVs with recharging, but by 2030 I'm willing to bet that at least 60-70% of the big concerns will be addressed...who know we might be at the 80-90% mark, but I'm keeping myself to be realistic here.

 

Not to mention anything coming out in the next year or two was already baked in 5 years ago or so....thus why manufactures are talking about BEVs now...because post 2028, when they hit the market in ernest, development for gas powered cars will have been long done for. 

I just see alot of FUD or people just digging their heels in because they refuse to change or want to do anything different. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, PS197TT said:


No.  Completely untrue.  
 

The only thing EVs are doing right now is turning buyers off to them because of the shortcomings.  The technology and the infrastructure just isn’t there yet.  
 

The two Ford EVs you mentioned are not exactly shining examples of EV success.  They aren’t profitable and have not advanced the bar in terms of EV technology.  The Mach E is a very typical EV as is the Lightning.    And I think Ford showed they are not fully convinced that EVs are the only answer going forward.  They heavily modified the F150 vs coming out with a dedicated platform.  Sure that’s on the horizon but I think it shows restraint.  Which is warranted.  
 

But to say the future (going out 50 years) is all EVs is absolutely insane.  
 

With that, I’m going to step out as we are just talking in circles.  

 

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that your correct. All your doing is spouting the same anti-ev BS without any facts besides your own options. Your comments about the Mach E and Lighting as demonstrate you have no freaking clue either. 

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Oh there is no demand for BEVs

From Ford's end of the year sales press release

 


Ford sales of electric vehicles more than doubled in 2022, to 61,575 electric vehicles sold double the rate of growth for the overall segment. Ford’s electric vehicle sales performance makes it the second largest maker of electric vehicles in the U.S. behind Tesla. Conquesting sales at over 60 percent, Ford’s electric vehicles played a crucial role in expanding Ford’s overall share in 2022

 



Ford’s full year sales of electric vehicles hit a new record at 61,575 vehicles, making Ford the second largest automaker of electric vehicles in America. Ford sales of EVs were up 126 percent for the year and up 223 percent for December. 
  • The F150 Lightning was the No. 1 electric truck in America in December and the bestselling electric truck in the U.S. since its launch in May with 15,617 electric trucks sold. 
  • For the year, Ford sold 6,500 E-Transit vans, making it America’s best-selling electric van with 73 percent share of the segment. December sales of E-Transit totaled 689.
  • Mustang Mach-E sales climbed 103 percent in December on sales of 4,775 SUVs. For the year, Mustang Mach-E is up 45.4 percent on sales of 39,458 SUVs.

 

The Mach E had a bigger year to year percentage jump in sales then the Bronco did 

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1 hour ago, PS197TT said:


Bingo.  A zero compromise vehicle and I don’t have to be told by the manufacturer to just simply not use the heater when it’s cold out to help with my range.  PHEVs and hybrids, right now, are the best way to reduce petroleum use and emissions without impacting the habits of drivers.  They don’t have to worry about not being able to charge when it’s cold out or worry about range issues.  It’s a reasonable solution that the powers at be, that are pushing this short sighted EV agenda. 

 

Oh if its not our friendly Matt that keeps trolling this site...might want to try harder next time. 

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1 hour ago, PS197TT said:

With that, I’m going to step out as we are just talking in circles.  

 

Thanks. I hope you at least acknowledge that Ford's sales growth, conquest success, and top rankings for BEV (as mentioned in the Ford 2022 Year End press release that silvrsvt shared) is a very good thing. The entire future of Ford Motor Company rests on continuing these trends long term.

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