silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 33 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: You’re missing my point. The demand wouldn’t be there if the powers that be weren’t pushing it so hard. How is that any different then this: Catalytic converters Smaller engine sizes Downsizing of cars Fuel Injection Computerized engine controls All that came from CAFE and the Clean air act which are nearing their 50th anniversary. CAFE requirements are more or less bullshit now since once you get above 30 MPG, the savings aren't as great as going from 15 to 25 MPG...but its how the law was written, so that is what we have go with. Since Automakers are international businesses they have to meet requirements set in other countries like China and the European Union. It makes no sense to develop two almost completely different style of cars for two different markets, when a BEV offers an opportunity for you to increase your profit margins considerably over their ICE counterparts. I get that change is scary, but hey the only thing that stays the same is change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 9 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Not buying it. That’s been the narrative since the 60s. If it was true my house would be part of Lake Erie by now. I live 10-15 minutes from the ocean and I've been here most of my life, I'll say this: The water is FAR better shape then it was in the 1980s when it was brownish-green color with medical garbage from staten island landfills etc in it. Now its a nice shade of blue and so clear I can see the beach under it for a couple feet before it gets too deep. But with that said, the actual beach itself is smaller than it has been...its not as long as it used to be. I'm sure some of this is due to Hurricane Sandy 12 years ago and I don't think they are doing beach replenishment as much as they did in the past, but there def has been a change there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 On 1/7/2023 at 8:43 PM, PS197TT said: Im sure they said the same thing in the 70s, and 80s, and 90s too. And your point is? Just using the past twenty years...the Prius has only going up 10 MPGs from when it first came out and you save a whopping $250 extra a year in gas.... Your still burning gas and creating more CO2 no matter how efficient/powerful they become. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: The infrastructure will come...you need a demand for it first. I see that first hand where I live. Just because your "bubble" doesn't have it (I don't mean that in a bad way-everyone has a different bubble they live in) , doesn't mean its not coming. How prevalent was high speed internet back 25+ years ago? Now you most likely carry a phone that can do the same speeds wirelessly. I can feed my horse anywhere - where am I going to buy a gallon of gasoline!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 27 minutes ago, sullynd said: I can feed my horse anywhere - where am I going to buy a gallon of gasoline!? It took what, 9 years or something for the first gas stations to be built? LOL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The infrastructure will come...you need a demand for it first. I see that first hand where I live. Just because your "bubble" doesn't have it (I don't mean that in a bad way-everyone has a different bubble they live in) , doesn't mean its not coming. How prevalent was high speed internet back 25+ years ago? Now you most likely carry a phone that can do the same speeds wirelessly. Its going to be a different place for BEVs by 2030-which is only 7 years away. Buyers purchase a new vehicle to enjoy today, not in 7 years when infrastructure has improved. I understand that BEV supporters want the majority of buyers to be altruistic and invest for the future of the planet, but I think most people will do what is in their best interest and will invest in vehicles that have the most value to them at time of purchase. I want BEVs to succeed, but not through mandates or incentives; it should be on their own by being better than competition. Tesla sold plenty of cars because buyers wanted them, not because they were forced. Granted incentives helped, but most Teslas would likely have sold anyway because they initially appealed to wealthy. Similarly, a buyer should have the option to choose between Lightning and ICE F-150 indefinitely just like they can choose internet speed based on what they need or can afford. When technology and competition drives costs down, buyers will switch on their own. The difference now that seems most divisive is that the transition to electric is being forced by government by eliminating choice. That transition is being forced gradually over 10 or 20 years isn’t the point. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, silvrsvt said: I get that change is scary, but hey the only thing that stays the same is change. Im not scared of anything. I don’t want to be told what I can and can’t buy. I’m not opposed to BEVs, I just think the cart is being put before the horse. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: Buyers purchase a new vehicle to enjoy today, not in 7 years when infrastructure has improved. I understand that BEV supporters want the majority of buyers to be altruistic and invest for the future of the planet, but I think most people will do what is in their best interest and will invest in vehicles that have the most value to them at time of purchase. I want BEVs to succeed, but not through mandates or incentives; it should be on their own by being better than competition. Tesla sold plenty of cars because buyers wanted them, not because they were forced. Granted incentives helped, but most Teslas would likely have sold anyway because they initially appealed to wealthy. Similarly, a buyer should have the option to choose between Lightning and ICE F-150 indefinitely just like they can choose internet speed based on what they need or can afford. When technology and competition drives costs down, buyers will switch on their own. The difference now that seems most divisive is that the transition to electric is being forced by government by eliminating choice. That transition is being forced gradually over 10 or 20 years isn’t the point. Most buyers who are buying BEVs now are doing so because they can for the most part-they can charge at home/work and they generally work for what they need an auto do for them. Those are the same people who will make the infrastructure improve in the area they live in also because of demand for it. People where "forced" into buying more efficient/cleaner vehicles for the past 50 years due to government regulations...you couldn't buy a car without a catalytic converter after 1974...that had a huge impact on cars performance from the years prior that took almost 10 years to meet and then succeed what a car was doing in the late 1960s in the mid 1980s. I think that the biggest issue is people are looking at this completely wrong-we still are the infancy stage with BEVs. More products are being added and it represents a possible shifting of the current market away from the established players-look at Foxconn (a IC manufacture) and Sony are working on a BEV car. If Ford does it right, it allows them to gain market share that they've been losing for years. People who are buying now are just paving the way for the rest of the market in the next 10-12 years. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: I want BEVs to succeed, but not through mandates or incentives; it should be on their own by being better than competition. Tesla sold plenty of cars because buyers wanted them, not because they were forced. Granted incentives helped, but most Teslas would likely have sold anyway because they initially appealed to wealthy. Bingo. More options in the market is a good thing for everyone and let the best form factor win. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 26 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Im not scared of anything. I don’t want to be told what I can and can’t buy. I’m not opposed to BEVs, I just think the cart is being put before the horse. Well going by what I've seen, you still have a choice in the matter till 2035-12 years from now, if you want an ICE product. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted January 9, 2023 Author Share Posted January 9, 2023 11 hours ago, akirby said: Let’s get back on topic. Thank you. Didn't think that F-150 Lightning's overall product excellence and the essential role it plays not only transitioning Ford Motor Company from the "old world" of the automotive industry to the new, but of doing more than any non-Tesla vehicle to make BEV mainstream in the U.S. market, would be criticized in any way on a Ford oriented site. Oh well. Looking forward to the announcement of North American Truck of the Year 2023 in a couple days. As mentioned earlier, F-150 Lightning is the obvious choice for this award. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisgb Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 15 hours ago, tarheels23 said: I guess it depends on how old you are and how long you will be driving, gasoline maybe an issue but you can get a still and make your own. And if we don't stop burning fossil fuel if you own that property it may be oceanfront sometime in your lifetime. And we don't know the actual quantity of crude oil we have left, we just know it is finite; there was a finite number of acres of vegetation that got compressed into crude. It doesn't matter what we may think of global warming or climate change. The world's pump jacks are going to make a slurping sound, one by one in their day, so it is prudent to develop other forms of energy that either have greater reserves or energy density like geothermal, hydrogen and nuclear, or are renewable, like solar and wind. 22 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: They also didn’t have nearly as intrusive government(s) as we have today. CCC & TVA were/are federal government corporations created in part to develop some resources, set aside others and in part, electrify the country, particularly Appalachia. President Herbert Hoover, once called Prohibition "...the great social and economic experiment, noble in motive and far reaching in purpose." There have been over a dozen conscription acts (mandatory military selective service registration) going back to colonial days. Thomas Jefferson has been erroneously atrributed to saying, "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have." True today as ever, no matter were it came from. Still, the US Border Patrol is overwhelmed with people trying to get in, not people trying to leave. Anyway, Congratulations to the Ford Motor Company on winning the 2023 Motor Trend Truck of the Year Award. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, silvrsvt said: I think that the biggest issue is people are looking at this completely wrong-we still are the infancy stage with BEVs It would really help a lot if the BEV supporters would stop saying or implying that EVs work for everybody right now. They don’t and that just starts arguments. Likewise the anti-EV crowd needs to realize there is consumer demand and they do work fine for a lot of people. The only question is how fast the market will shift and nobody really knows how that will play out. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, akirby said: It would really help a lot if the BEV supporters would stop saying or implying that EVs work for everybody right now. They don’t and that just starts arguments. Likewise the anti-EV crowd needs to realize there is consumer demand and they do work fine for a lot of people. People don't like change or being told what to do either ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 18 hours ago, silvrsvt said: People don't like change or being told what to do either ? Don't tell me what I'm thinking! ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 22 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Most buyers who are buying BEVs now are doing so because they can for the most part-they can charge at home/work and they generally work for what they need an auto do for them. Those are the same people who will make the infrastructure improve in the area they live in also because of demand for it. I’m more concerned with who pays for upgrades. Tesla Megacharger for new Semi as an example is estimated to require over 1 MW, which ERCOT estimates is the “peak” power demand of 200 Texas homes. Car chargers presently are roughly 1/10 of that. As long as electrical-infrastructure-upgrade costs are passed on to end users in a fair manner, I do not see a problem. Where we could run into issues in my opinion is if non-BEV owners end up paying disproportionally for infrastructure upgrades through taxes so that the few who own power-hungry BEVs have access to cheaper and or faster charging. I expect government could artificially keep charging rates low to promote BEV transition. If so, that probably wouldn’t go over well with ICE drivers since they would be subsidizing BEV fuel costs and charging convenience. Regardless of how it is done, some will benefit much more than others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 40 minutes ago, Rick73 said: I’m more concerned with who pays for upgrades. Tesla Megacharger for new Semi as an example is estimated to require over 1 MW, which ERCOT estimates is the “peak” power demand of 200 Texas homes. Car chargers presently are roughly 1/10 of that. As long as electrical-infrastructure-upgrade costs are passed on to end users in a fair manner, I do not see a problem. Where we could run into issues in my opinion is if non-BEV owners end up paying disproportionally for infrastructure upgrades through taxes so that the few who own power-hungry BEVs have access to cheaper and or faster charging. I expect government could artificially keep charging rates low to promote BEV transition. If so, that probably wouldn’t go over well with ICE drivers since they would be subsidizing BEV fuel costs and charging convenience. Regardless of how it is done, some will benefit much more than others. I hear you but the grid upgrades benefit everyone. It does make sense to charge BEV owners more maybe through higher registration costs based on mileage which would help pay for both road maintenance and electrical infrastructure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 2 hours ago, akirby said: I hear you but the grid upgrades benefit everyone. It does make sense to charge BEV owners more maybe through higher registration costs based on mileage which would help pay for both road maintenance and electrical infrastructure. But your have politicians claiming that those taxes would disproportionately affect lower incomes who have to travel further for work, even though they aren’t the target demographic for cars like this? i’m gonna assume that higher the income, the less driving to work is involved 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 50 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: But your have politicians claiming that those taxes would disproportionately affect lower incomes who have to travel further for work, even though they aren’t the target demographic for cars like this? How is that any different than the current gasoline tax? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: i’m gonna assume that higher the income, the less driving to work is involved I would also assume the higher the income, the higher the probability of owning a large BEV requiring greater charging infrastructure upgrades. I only know well one person who owns a BEV, and he’s rich and only drives a couple of miles to work. In fairness, he pays a lot more in taxes than I do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 1 hour ago, akirby said: How is that any different than the current gasoline tax? Ask your layperson how much their state charges in taxes on gas and you’ll hear crickets because they don’t know. Add a new tax to something that doesn’t have it already and get ready for a shitshow depending on what part of the political spectrum they are on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 35 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Ask your layperson how much their state charges in taxes on gas and you’ll hear crickets because they don’t know. Add a new tax to something that doesn’t have it already and get ready for a shitshow depending on what part of the political spectrum they are on. We know in Ga because the governor suspended it several months ago and it just got reinstated at about 30 cents per gallon. But obviously most don’t know and even if they did it probably wouldn’t matter. Any perceived price increase will result in complaints no matter the net result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 On 1/9/2023 at 10:05 AM, rperez817 said: Looking forward to the announcement of North American Truck of the Year 2023 in a couple days. As mentioned earlier, F-150 Lightning is the obvious choice for this award. You called it. https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/01/11/f-150-lightning-wins-2023-north-american-truck-of-the-year--thir.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: You called it. https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/01/11/f-150-lightning-wins-2023-north-american-truck-of-the-year--thir.html Thanks for sharing the great news Rick73. Not only did F-150 Lightning win NATOTY, but it won decisively with 483 votes. For comparison, the NACOTY winner (Acura Integra) got 174 votes, and the NAUOTY winner (Kia EV6) got 258. NACTOY Reveals 2023 North American Car, Truck and Utility Vehicle of the Year™ Award Winners - North American Car, Truck and Utility of the Year (northamericancaroftheyear.org) Congratulations once again to Ford for making F-150 Lightning "the best of all worlds" as juror and Forbes writer Karl Brauer said. Bengt Halvorson of Green Car Reports also mentioned just how big an accomplishment F-150 Lightning is. The F-150 Lightning shows how the most familiar vehicle in American life can be made even better as an EV, and it’s fantastic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Summary of awards for F-150 Lightning, from the press release Rick73 shared. 2023 Motor Trend Truck of the Year (unanimous vote) 2023 North American Truck of the Year (more juror votes than any other vehicle - car, truck, or SUV/crossover) 2023 Detroit Free Press Truck of the Year 2023 Kelley Blue Book Best Buy Award 2022 Altair Enlighten Award 2022 Sobre Ruedas Award 2022 Wards 10 Best Engines & Propulsion Systems 2022 TopGear.com American Car of the Year 2022 Autoblog Technology of the Year 2022 Motor1 Star Award 2022 Platinum SABRE award finalist for Best in Show 2022 Gold SABRE award in the Technology category The Car Connection Best Car to Buy Edmunds Top Rated pickup truck TIME Top 200 Invention of 2022 Green Car Reports Best Car to Buy Internet Brands Best Car to Buy Victory & Reseda Vehicle of the Year CarBuzz Save the Planet Award Edited January 12, 2023 by rperez817 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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