Ford's Disaster: The Pinto

[SoonerLS]

27 minutes ago, slemke said:

Thanks…I’ll look it up that was before I was born and my Dad never mentioned it.

I've seen the clip, but it's from slightly before my time. I knew several Vietnam veterans who were still mad about it and brought it up when he died. 

[akirby]

9 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

I've seen the clip, but it's from slightly before my time. I knew several Vietnam veterans who were still mad about it and brought it up when he died. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/26/opinion/walter-cronkite-war-stalemate.html

 

He said we couldn’t win the war despite the outcome of Tet and he was 100% right.

 

 

[Chrisgb]

10 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

IIRC, it would've been around the time of the Tet Offensive (the battle that broke the back of the Viet Cong as a fighting force), so early '68-ish.

Tet '68 didn't "break the back" of the Viet Cong, maybe slowed them up temporarily. VC were very much a factor when I arrived there in January 1970 at Chu Lai. I was an infantryman in the Americal Division based there and we regularly made rifle, mortar and rocket propelled grenade contact with VC and NVA. I think many Viet Nam Vets that operated in the I Corps area up to to about 1973 has a similar experience. The problem with the "Vietnam-ization" that the US was trying to do is that the Vietnamese as a nation really didn't care what the government was: Communist or Democratic. Today the Vietnamese are just as bad off and a handful of oligarchs are running the economy. Ford Vietnam Headquarters is 11.9km/7.4 mi from the site of the former Hoa Lo (Hell's Hole or "Hanoi Hilton") prison camp, where jane fonda appeared with NVA soldiers and an anti-aircraft gun used to shoot down American aircraft.

Peace.

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Chrisgb

[silvrsvt]

11 hours ago, slemke said:

I think you are living in a bubble.  The infrastructure may be built out around you, but it isn’t everywhere.  “Range anxiety” is real for those that drive lots of miles in a day or in locations poorly served by public charging or haul/tow heavy loads, or extremely cold temps.

 

Maybe you missed the point I was trying to make...the infrastructure is being built out because there is a demand where I live. The change is happening and in the future it should get better. 

 

The point your making are "extreme" use cases. If you need that, at this VERY MOMENT, you'd be better served by ICE. 

 

Once again is about perspective-People are complaining about BEVs or other electrified cars from Ford NOW, when in the grand scheme of things, if you really wanted one, you'd have to order one and most likely wait at least 6 months for it be built. It's not like Ford's lots are full of electrified options and you have no choice in buying something else

[Rick73]

14 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

The only thing BEVs "suffer" from is range anxiety and given what I've seen around my house, charging stations are about to become almost as common as gas stations are in the next few years. Performance isn't an issue...the only issue is they might be too powerful for some users.  

Higher initial cost may still be an issue for some buyers.  BEVs with greatest range, and hence less anxiety, are also more expensive.

[silvrsvt]

27 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Higher initial cost may still be an issue for some buyers.  BEVs with greatest range, and hence less anxiety, are also more expensive.

 

Right, but there is too much focus on what is happening now vs what what will be the case in 5 years. 

[Rick73]

29 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Right, but there is too much focus on what is happening now vs what what will be the case in 5 years. 

I agree 100%, but don’t you think buyers make decisions today based on present conditions?  A vehicle that is more expensive today still costs more, and if prices drop in next five years it’s even worse because it accelerates depreciation.  And you’re correct that there will be more charging stations, but if number of vehicles grow faster than chargers (which could happen), access to chargers could take longer.  I don’t believe buyers necessarily resist change as much as try to avoid unnecessary risks.  Innovators are all over BEVs, but I expect many buyers will wait until costs are lower and (perceived) risks are known.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Maybe you missed the point I was trying to make...the infrastructure is being built out because there is a demand where I live. The change is happening and in the future it should get better. 

 

The point your making are "extreme" use cases. If you need that, at this VERY MOMENT, you'd be better served by ICE. 

 

I don’t think you’re understanding the environment outside of the west coast and northeast.  Charging stations are few and far between and nobody is rushing to build them because there is very little demand.  It will change over time but not very quickly in these rural areas.  
 

All of these locations are single charging stations in a Walmart with two fast chargers.

 

 

[silvrsvt]

44 minutes ago, akirby said:

I don’t think you’re understanding the environment outside of the west coast and northeast.  Charging stations are few and far between and nobody is rushing to build them because there is very little demand.  It will change over time but not very quickly in these rural areas.  

 

 

This is pretty much dead smack in between San Antonio and Kingsville, Texas....I was suprised to see it myself, since it is in the  middle of nowhere. 

This is what I got from the DOE website, using level 2 chargers
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC&location=albany,ga

Edited February 9, 2023 by silvrsvt

[mackinaw]

Charging stations are scattered about Michigan's lower peninsula, more along the interstate.  But the big issue up here seems to be that many don't work.  Henry Payne, auto writer for the Detroit News, often test drives EV's from Detroit to northern Michigan (250 miles one way).  His test reports are filled with tales of frustration of pulling up to a charger only to find it isn't working.  And it's not just northern Michigan too.  Broken charging stations seems to be quite common.  

 

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a40576648/ev-charger-maintenance-problem/

[silvrsvt]

48 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

I agree 100%, but don’t you think buyers make decisions today based on present conditions?  A vehicle that is more expensive today still costs more, and if prices drop in next five years it’s even worse because it accelerates depreciation.  And you’re correct that there will be more charging stations, but if number of vehicles grow faster than chargers (which could happen), access to chargers could take longer.  I don’t believe buyers necessarily resist change as much as try to avoid unnecessary risks.  Innovators are all over BEVs, but I expect many buyers will wait until costs are lower and (perceived) risks are known.

 

The charging issue you bring up is offset by the ability to charge at home. Given that BEVs are more expensive currently, wealthier buyers will be the ones buying/leasing them and afford or have incentives to add level 2 charging at home-for example:
https://nj.myaccount.pseg.com/myservicepublic/electricvehicles or https://www.firstenergycorp.com/newsroom/news_articles/jcp-l-launches-electric-vehicle-charging-incentive-program.html

 

The point is that people who can and want to change over to BEVs will now, and the rest will come along eventually. It isn't going to happen over night...I don't see the actual tipping point happening till 2028 or later, when there will be more choices for products and more charging options for people who may not be able to charge at home or work. 

 

 

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The charging issue you bring up is offset by the ability to charge at home. Given that BEVs are more expensive currently, wealthier buyers will be the ones buying/leasing them and afford or have incentives to add level 2 charging at home-for example:
https://nj.myaccount.pseg.com/myservicepublic/electricvehicles or https://www.firstenergycorp.com/newsroom/news_articles/jcp-l-launches-electric-vehicle-charging-incentive-program.html

 

The point is that people who can and want to change over to BEVs will now, and the rest will come along eventually. It isn't going to happen over night...I don't see the actual tipping point happening till 2028 or later, when there will be more choices for products and more charging options for people who may not be able to charge at home or work. 

 

 

it was necessary to create the right image for EVs by giving them great capabilities, though that generally comes at a high price few buyers can afford.  Because of this, I understand why most BEVs have been purchased thus far by high income buyers.  Tesla deserve credit for redefining what an electric vehicle can be, but maybe it’s time to remove training wheels.  If BEVs are mostly being purchased by the rich as you stated, and incentives are given for the car, the charger, and even the electricity they run on, is that fair to everyone else paying the bill?  Without incentives, what would a Tesla buyer do, not buy a BEV at all or buy a cheaper model with a little  less range?  Incentives come at too high a price IMO.

 

I would like to see an electric modern version of the Pinto.  Cheap, small, basic, economical, greener, etc. primarily for in-city use where nearly all charging will be at home.  If that’s what it takes to make it affordable for the masses today, so be it.  Let buyers decide what they value enough to part with their own money, not someone else’s. 

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

I would like to see an electric modern version of the Pinto.  Cheap, small, basic, economical, greener, etc. primarily for in-city use where nearly all charging will be at home. 

 

Same here, that would be a nice addition to the Ford product lineup. Back in the 1970s there was a company called Lyman Electric Products that supposedly converted Ford Pinto to EV but even the Pinto Car Club of America has been unable to verify whether any of these EV Pintos were actually produced. Shocking innovation from the OPEC-boycott days | Hemmings

 

It wasn't cheap. $10,000 in 1976 is about $51,400 in today's dollars.

 

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

it was necessary to create the right image for EVs by giving them great capabilities, though that generally comes at a high price few buyers can afford.  Because of this, I understand why most BEVs have been purchased thus far by high income buyers.  Tesla deserve credit for redefining what an electric vehicle can be, but maybe it’s time to remove training wheels.  If BEVs are mostly being purchased by the rich as you stated, and incentives are given for the car, the charger, and even the electricity they run on, is that fair to everyone else paying the bill?  Without incentives, what would a Tesla buyer do, not buy a BEV at all or buy a cheaper model with a little  less range?  Incentives come at too high a price IMO.

 

I would like to see an electric modern version of the Pinto.  Cheap, small, basic, economical, greener, etc. primarily for in-city use where nearly all charging will be at home.  If that’s what it takes to make it affordable for the masses today, so be it.  Let buyers decide what they value enough to part with their own money, not someone else’s. 

 

For some levity:

The average price paid for a new vehicle in the United States in October 2022 was $48,281, just a breath below the record of $48,301 set in August.

October prices rose 0.2% ($187) month over month from September and were up 3.8% ($1,775) year over year from October of last year.

 

The 2023 Mach E starts at $45,995, Tesla Model 3 $43,990.00 and the VW ID.4 is $38,995...all before any tax discounts.

 

Cars aren't cheap any more...just using a local Ford dealership, the cheapest thing I could find is a couple Mavericks en route for $27K...unsure of any ADMs on them either. 

 

As for the incentives...well the governments want to go "green" and well they grease the wheels to make that happen. 

[slemke]

11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Maybe you missed the point I was trying to make...the infrastructure is being built out because there is a demand where I live. The change is happening and in the future it should get better. 

 

The point your making are "extreme" use cases. If you need that, at this VERY MOMENT, you'd be better served by ICE. 

 

Once again is about perspective-People are complaining about BEVs or other electrified cars from Ford NOW, when in the grand scheme of things, if you really wanted one, you'd have to order one and most likely wait at least 6 months for it be built. It's not like Ford's lots are full of electrified options and you have no choice in buying something else

No, I didn’t miss your point.  Just because infrastructure is built out around you doesn’t mean it is built out everywhere else.  That’s my point.  Heck, there are still locations with poor cell service.  It’s going to take time, especially in sparsely populated rural areas to be built out.  If manufacturers rush to phase out ice before the infrastructure is fully built out there will be problems.  I don’t know the future.  Neither do manufacturers as they are trying different things, hoping to find the next big thing.  Tesla found a formula that worked for them.

 

Why if a use case doesn’t match what you think is it extreme?  The whole point I’m trying to make is that Bev isn’t the best solution for everyone now or in the foreseeable future.  Battery technology isn’t there yet.  Maybe in 10 years, nobody knows. You seem to admit that above, but indicate it is a bad thing by saying they complain about it.  There is nothing wrong with saying vehicle X or a type of vehicle doesn’t meet your needs.  If people didn’t state that a product didn’t meet their needs, products wouldn’t get better.  We wouldn’t have manufactures working to add range, decrease charging times, and build out charging infrastructure because people wouldn’t pay extra for it.
 

Tesla’s super charger network is a big draw for many people.  Especially now that some of the other networks are getting older and are not maintained.

[Rick73]

18 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Same here, that would be a nice addition to the Ford product lineup. Back in the 1970s there was a company called Lyman Electric Products that supposedly converted Ford Pinto to EV but even the Pinto Car Club of America has been unable to verify whether any of these EV Pintos were actually produced. Shocking innovation from the OPEC-boycott days | Hemmings

 

It wasn't cheap. $10,000 in 1976 is about $51,400 in today's dollars.

 

Agree there is room for smaller and cheaper BEV, as long as it doesn’t get too small.  The closest modern BEV I can find in size to original Pinto is the Chevy Bolt, which is roughly same length and width, but much taller by over a foot.  It seems Bolt sales are OK considering recall due to fires which must have damaged reputation.  One site lists the Bolt only behind three Tesla and the Mach E in 2022 sales.  It seems to be the most affordable BEV and GM claims sales started to increase in second half of 2022.

 

Even though the Bolt has 65 kWh battery, it still doesn’t seem practical to me for road trips.  Test show that at constant 70 MPH, it gets between 3.0 and 3.1 miles per kWh, so total Interstate range of +/- 200 miles.  If charged approximately 60% repeatedly for best overall time, driver would have to stop every 2 hours or less.  I would never want to do a road trip like that, so for me a Bolt would only work for local trips.

 

Bolt’s appearance looks a little odd, but since price is now under $30k, it is only BEV I would consider buying at all, and only as a 2nd or 3rd car.  However, it just doesn’t offer enough function or savings to improve on a 50 MPG hybrid of similar cost.  Maybe in a year or two there will be better choices.

[silvrsvt]

13 hours ago, slemke said:

Why if a use case doesn’t match what you think is it extreme?  The whole point I’m trying to make is that Bev isn’t the best solution for everyone now or in the foreseeable future.  

 

If BEVs meets lets say 80% of peoples requirements for transportation, why wouldn't things be considered an "extreme"?

 

I get that not everything is going to be a perfect fit at the moment, but it appears that often that people just carte blanche say hey this isn't going to work even improve going forward and just continuously push back on anything BEV because they don't want or like change. People will always come up with excuses not to do something...it's just human nature. 

 

If its not a range issue, its a recharging issue, if its not that its something else....its tiresome. BEVs can work for most things with some adjustments, just because it doesn't have the same "workflow" like an ICE doesn't make it bad. 

 

Things will get better as time goes on with BEVs-charging times will drop, prices will come down as time goes on with new/different battery types and hopefully ranges will improve. Then what excuse will be left?

I'm personally not looking at what is happening now-in my own situation I can make an BEV work with no problem. I'd like to see my wife get one due to her driving a lot and spending a lot on gas, but she doesn't want to have a big car payment and she isn't a big change person either. 

 

I'm looking at this as a five year thing from now-because basically everything anyone is doing at this very moment is more or less nailed down and can't change or would be very expensive to change. 

If you need a vehicle now-yeah BEVs may not be a good choice due to price/limited availability, but in 5 years it will most likely be very different. 

[akirby]

Lack of charging whether it’s public or home charging is a much bigger constraint outside major cities than you’re making it seem.  And that’s not going to be solved in 5 years.  It will obviously get better but much more slowly than larger metro areas because there isn’t nearly as much demand.  That’s all we’re saying.  What happens in metro areas isn’t the same as rural areas.

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Lack of charging whether it’s public or home charging is a much bigger constraint outside major cities than you’re making it seem.  And that’s not going to be solved in 5 years.  It will obviously get better but much more slowly than larger metro areas because there isn’t nearly as much demand.  That’s all we’re saying.  What happens in metro areas isn’t the same as rural areas.

https://electrek.co/2021/08/02/heres-what-is-and-isnt-in-the-new-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-for-evs/
 

Electric vehicle charging stations: $7.5 billion for electric vehicle charging stations, with a focus on highways and routes that connect rural and disadvantaged communities. The good news? It’s the first-ever US investment in EV chargers. The bad news is it’s only half of what President Joe Biden wanted in order to build a national network of 500,000 charging stations

 

 

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

What happens in metro areas isn’t the same as rural areas.

 

Correct. U.S. federal government agencies are working with state and local governments to ensure that people in rural areas and other underserved communities benefit from the transition to BEV just as much or more as those in larger metro areas. Here is the U.S. DOT Rural EV toolkit. Charging Forward: A Toolkit for Planning and Funding Rural Electric Mobility Infrastructure | US Department of Transportation

 

The rapid growth in electric vehicles (EVs) today is part of a fundamental shift in transportation, a change that promises substantial benefits to individuals, businesses, communities, and the entire Nation. All Americans, regardless of where they live, should have the opportunity to benefit from the lower operating costs, reduced maintenance needs, and improved performance that EVs provide. All communities—including communities of color, underserved communities, and environmental justice communities—should have access to the economic opportunities and improved air quality that EVs offer. The entire Nation will benefit from the successful nationwide adoption of EVs as one important element in the Federal Government’s strategy to eliminate climate-related emissions from transportation, alongside investments in quality transit, bicycle, and pedestrian networks that give Americans real choices in how to travel.  

 

In rural parts of the country—home to 20 percent of Americans and almost 70 percent of America’s road miles—EVs can be an especially attractive alternative to conventional vehicles. Rural residents drive more than their urban counterparts, spend more on vehicle fuel and maintenance, and often have fewer alternatives to driving to meet their transportation needs. Over the long run, EVs will help residents of rural areas reduce those costs and minimize the environmental impact of transportation in their communities.

[tarheels23]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Lack of charging whether it’s public or home charging is a much bigger constraint outside major cities than you’re making it seem.  And that’s not going to be solved in 5 years.  It will obviously get better but much more slowly than larger metro areas because there isn’t nearly as much demand.  That’s all we’re saying.  What happens in metro areas isn’t the same as rural areas.

Biden is working on one possible solution, using Tesla charging stations:

https://www.reuters.com/technology/tap-us-government-billions-tesla-must-unlock-ev-chargers-2023-02-10/

 

The Department of Transportation next week is expected to finalize a requirement that will pressure Tesla to expand beyond its proprietary charging equipment in the U.S. and add the charger used by its competitors, administration officials tell Reuters.