silvrsvt Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 https://www.hotcars.com/never-charge-plug-in-hybrid-vehicles/ The California Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) found that real-world electric miles driven by PHEVs is much lower than it could be. They have put it in the region of 25%-65% lower, a huge percentage range. Fuel consumption conversely is some 42%-67% higher, thanks to that lack of mileage done on the electric power. This is all based upon the EPA-sanctioned window-sticker labels, and it makes for some pretty shocking reading. People are simply not maximizing the potential of their cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) Its a good article to explain why regulators don't like PHEV... it is the ultimate green-wash vehicle. Most owners do not plug it in so they become gross polluters. Another point that people often miss is that CARB and EU have raised the EV miles requirements to certify PHEV to as many as 50 miles by 2030. This is leading many car companies to conclude it is a pointless endeavor because you have to make the battery so big to hit that 50 miles EV range, you might as well just make it all electric. Basically, the only PHEV that will make sense is large vehicles (like pickup trucks) that can accommodate enough batteries and still keep ICE and have enough room and payload leftover to be useful. The math doesn't work on smaller PHEV where cost and packaging constraints mean it's either a hybrid (which won't have minimum EV range hurdle) or EV. Edited January 23, 2023 by bzcat 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havelock Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 What a poorly written article. It does not provide a single reason why people don't plug in the cars. It simply says newer owners of phev do not maximize charging. Is this because they use their vehicles on long trips where the electric charging is likely not used once leaving home? It doesn't say. How is the data collected? Doesn't say. What do the owners think? Has charging changed due to work from home since the start of COVID? Is this including used car sales where people might have bought whatever was available during the shortages? It doesn't say. As for regulator opinions, the results are caused by regulators trying to regulate people for a specific outcome. Poorly thought out regulations and incentives produce results that are significantly different than intended. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Havelock said: What a poorly written article. It does not provide a single reason why people don't plug in the cars. It simply says newer owners of phev do not maximize charging. Is this because they use their vehicles on long trips where the electric charging is likely not used once leaving home? It doesn't say. How is the data collected? Doesn't say. What do the owners think? Has charging changed due to work from home since the start of COVID? Is this including used car sales where people might have bought whatever was available during the shortages? It doesn't say. As for regulator opinions, the results are caused by regulators trying to regulate people for a specific outcome. Poorly thought out regulations and incentives produce results that are significantly different than intended. The article seems like its a bit light on information, but the embedded links have more info like this: https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1138255_study-phevs-aren-t-plugged-in-as-often-as-regulators-assume BLUF is this: Plug-in hybrids can still be driven solely on gasoline power, which might prove more convenient for drivers but also increases fuel consumption Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 2 hours ago, bzcat said: Its a good article to explain why regulators don't like PHEV... it is the ultimate green-wash vehicle. Most owners do not plug it in so they become gross polluters. How in the hell is a vehicle that gets 40 mpg a “gross polluter”? 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, akirby said: How in the hell is a vehicle that gets 40 mpg a “gross polluter”? I was wondering that exact same thing. That statement seems to put all hybrids in the category of "gross polluter". Driving my 2015 Fusion hybrid here in Florida I consistently get over 50 mpg. It is far from being a gross polluter. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 2 hours ago, silvrsvt said: https://www.hotcars.com/never-charge-plug-in-hybrid-vehicles/ . Fuel consumption conversely is some 42%-67% higher, What a stupid misleading statement. I know they’re comparing it to the window sticker rating based on a fully charged battery, but they (along with some folks calling them gross polluters) make it sound like PHEVs are significantly worse than their ICE counterparts which isn’t even close to being true. Escape 1.5L 30 mpg Escape HEV 41 mpg Escape PHEV no charging 40 mpg I don’t disagree that PHEVs may not deliver the sticker mpgs and may end up being unnecessary from a mfr standpoint. But let’s not make up lies or twist statistics making them look worse than they really are. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, akirby said: What a stupid misleading statement. I know they’re comparing it to the window sticker rating based on a fully charged battery, but they (along with some folks calling them gross polluters) make it sound like PHEVs are significantly worse than their ICE counterparts which isn’t even close to being true. Escape 1.5L 30 mpg Escape HEV 41 mpg Escape PHEV no charging 40 mpg I don’t disagree that PHEVs may not deliver the sticker mpgs and may end up being unnecessary from a mfr standpoint. But let’s not make up lies or twist statistics making them look worse than they really are. The point is if people aren't plugging in a PHEV, they aren't getting the benefit in saving gas or removing pollutants Escape PHEV is 1.3 Tons CO2 vs 3.6 tons CO2 for the HEV Escape PHEV is 160g/mile for Tailpipe plus upstream GHG vs 261g/mile for the HEV https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44931&id=44811&#tab2 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?year=2022&vehicleId=44931&zipCode=08831&action=bt3 so there is a considerable difference in pollution between the two of almost 2x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 42 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: The point is if people aren't plugging in a PHEV, they aren't getting the benefit in saving gas or removing pollutants Escape PHEV is 1.3 Tons CO2 vs 3.6 tons CO2 for the HEV Escape PHEV is 160g/mile for Tailpipe plus upstream GHG vs 261g/mile for the HEV https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44931&id=44811&#tab2 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?year=2022&vehicleId=44931&zipCode=08831&action=bt3 so there is a considerable difference in pollution between the two of almost 2x Wait - are you saying that cars using gas pollute more than cars using electricity? Who knew? That difference depends ENTIRELY on how the owner uses it. So a phev has the potential for significant reductions and AT WORSE it’s the same as a HEV. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, akirby said: Wait - are you saying that cars using gas pollute more than cars using electricity? Who knew? That difference depends ENTIRELY on how the owner uses it. So a phev has the potential for significant reductions and AT WORSE it’s the same as a HEV. Isn't that the whole point of buying one? That is the point they are trying to make...it make zero sense to buy and spend extra on a PHEV if your never or almost never plugging it in, outside of getting around laws in the EU 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 51 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Isn't that the whole point of buying one? That is the point they are trying to make...it make zero sense to buy and spend extra on a PHEV if your never or almost never plugging it in, outside of getting around laws in the EU I agree but what about the people that do plug them in? Saying that people are wasting money and not getting the full benefit is a lot different than saying they’re gross polluters or that they’re using 50% more fuel. Also - if you want a hybrid Lincoln you only have 2 choices - Corsair and Aviator - and both are PHEV only. So don’t blame people for buying a PHEV if there is no HEV available. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: Isn't that the whole point of buying one? That is the point they are trying to make...it make zero sense to buy and spend extra on a PHEV if your never or almost never plugging it in, outside of getting around laws in the EU Anecdotal evidence, but I see far more PHEV's charging at the local Electrify America charging station that I do EV's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 I personally would much rather have a PHEV rather than a FHEV because I understand how I could use it in a way that would be the best of both BEV and HEV. How I use it may not be best for everyone else. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, akirby said: I agree but what about the people that do plug them in? Saying that people are wasting money and not getting the full benefit is a lot different than saying they’re gross polluters or that they’re using 50% more fuel. The optics are on cutting CO2 emissions, which the point they are trying to make. As for people plugging them in-it appears that isn’t the case for the majority aren’t. It also shows that PHEVs aren’t really that effective in cutting CO2 or HGH vs saying using BEV. Overall it’s a more complex/complicated powertrain that for all the effort isn’t worth it when using the above as a metric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 7 hours ago, Havelock said: It does not provide a single reason why people don't plug in the cars. Page 13 of the ICCT report provides the main reason why, namely, the fact that almost all PHEV are ICE dominant by design and not optimized for driving solely using electric propulsion. It's not PHEV owners' fault. Real world usage of plug-in hybrid vehicles in the United States (theicct.org) Many PHEV models may not have the capabilities for adequate driving experience while driving solely on electricity, considering both range and power. The ICCT report validates what Autothink Research found back in 2019. Hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids may be doing more to delay the consumer transition from ICE vehicles to EVs than to serve as a useful “bridge” or transition facilitator. EVs are now ready for prime time (i.e., as a fully capable substitute for millions of ICE vehicles). Hybrids and Plug-in hybrids (especially the ones offering only 10 – 25 miles of auxiliary electric range) may actually be perpetuating and prolonging the use of internal combustion engines and petroleum more than they are facilitating the transition to all-battery EVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Only know a few people who went with the PHEV. Some were Ford Managers who had ready access to an electric charger at the plant. Have a neighbor who had a Chevy Volt. Said he filled with gas twice a year. He is pretty much a close to home type, rarely drives long distances. The neighbor sold the Volt for a Tesla. His experience with PHEV proved he would do fine with a BEV. I drive more long trips, but go a month or more within 25 miles of home. Been thinking a PHEV would be a significant fuel reduction for me. Can't understand, with the premium price of a PHEV why people would not recharge. Overregulation and unintended consequences strikes again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 So PHEVs are horrible because they’re not BEVs and if we keep driving them the planet will explode. Got it, let’s move on. 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 41 minutes ago, akirby said: Got it, let’s move on. That's what the global automotive industry is doing. Moving on to the solution - 100% electric vehicles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balthisar Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 5 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I personally would much rather have a PHEV rather than a FHEV because I understand how I could use it in a way that would be the best of both BEV and HEV. How I use it may not be best for everyone else. I had a Fusion Energi with 13 miles of winter range, and about 25 miles of summer range. I much, much prefer my Mach E with 180 to 300 miles of range for 99% of my use. Road trips can be irritating, but that's 1% of my use, in which case I take my ICE vehicle instead. And it's fun, and I can drive it like a car instead of a stupid Prius-like hypermiler wannabe that the Fusion Energi encouraged. The problem with the PHEV is I either babied the heck out of it to get the range, but as soon as I was on gas, I just said "screw it" and drove the hell out of it, not realizing anything in savings. If it had only had, say, double the electric-only range, it would have been great, but as is, I couldn't get to half my destinations in SE Michigan on electricity alone. Just eliminate the complexity of a second drive train and go all electric. Your gas car won't do 100% of what you need, and neither will your electric. That's why rentals exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 55 minutes ago, balthisar said: I much, much prefer my Mach E with 180 to 300 miles of range for 99% of my use. Road trips can be irritating, but that's 1% of my use, in which case I take my ICE vehicle instead. For people with more than one vehicle it’s a no brainer. But some people only have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 8 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Isn't that the whole point of buying one? That is the point they are trying to make...it make zero sense to buy and spend extra on a PHEV if your never or almost never plugging it in, outside of getting around laws in the EU Not necessarily. I forgot which BMW I was looking at, but the pricing of the PHEV option was less than the tax credit. A no brainer at that point. More unintended consequences of legislation than anything else. The range requirements are low enough that manufacturers can provide a PHEV that meets the requirements for less than the incentive. A while back, there was a similar study of how fuel usage didn’t decrease as much as expected with the number of full EVs sold because they were bought by households with multiple vehicles and they continued to drive the ICE vehicle regularly and only occasionally take out the BEV. Very similar complaints to the article linked. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 This is not a science debate. The topic is PHEVs. Post deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying68 Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 One consideration is that as more PHEVs enter the market, the more likely they are to be bought by people that don't know how a PHEV is supposed to work, or by people that don't have access to charging infrastructure at home or work. They are just buying a vehicle because they need transportation and the window sticker MPG is high. So it isn't surprising to me that real world use of PHEVs is trending to be more like pure ICE vehicles. When PHEVs first came out they were limited supply on few models, so only those that really wanted one, and thus knew how to maximize their benefits from it, were buying them. Now not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 This all depends on how you’re looking at the problem. From the standpoint of reducing emissions they’re only slightly better than HEVs but more costly to build. From a consumer perspective there is a use case where a PHEV can dramatically reduce emissions with only one vehicle (folks who charge daily and drive less than. 30 miles per day normally). But that’s a small market segment. People with more than one vehicle can easily use a BEV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpaul Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 13 hours ago, slemke said: Not necessarily. I forgot which BMW I was looking at, but the pricing of the PHEV option was less than the tax credit. A no brainer at that point. More unintended consequences of legislation than anything else. The range requirements are low enough that manufacturers can provide a PHEV that meets the requirements for less than the incentive. This is true. I priced out an Escape HEV vs PHEV, and after rebate they are roughly the same price. So it is a no brainer to get the PHEV. The Escape PHEV seems to be in extremely short supply though. I had one salesman trying to talk me out of the PHEV Escape because he claimed I would then have to pay a bunch of money for a 240V charging station. He ignored the fact that you can charge a PHEV on standard 110V outlet. That may be another possible reason why some aren't charging their PHEV, they may have been told they need to buy the charger. Just speculation on my part. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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