Ford's VW-based electric SUV spied for the first time

[DeluxeStang]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:21 AM, Gurgeh said:

I know I've chimed in at this point before, being one of the few Lincoln guys around here. What you lay out makes perfect sense -- for Ford. But what's up with Lincoln? So far, at least, only the BEV Aviator has been confirmed, to come out alongside its Explorer cousin. But after this year, Lincoln in North America will shrink down to a sad state of affairs with just three vehicles: Corsair, Aviator and Navigator. So far, FMC hasn't brought over to Lincoln any product parallel to Bronco or the Mach E (which as you note do fit into the Edge space pretty well); we have heard nothing about how they plan to fill the space being vacated by the Nautilus or the arrival of any new product. 

Just chiming in here with my own two cents, we've heard that Lincoln could be receiving a more upscale version of the mach-e with its own unique design. I highly doubt we'll see any sort of Lincoln product based on the bronco, it's far to rugged and unrefined to be a good basis for a Lincoln unless they reengineered a ton of stuff to make it into some sort of defender rival.

 

The biggest issue with Lincoln currently is they don't really have a stellar flagship. The navigator is ok, but it doesn't wow you. From what I heard, back when ford was planning to develop a Lincoln ev on a Rivian platform, the design was close to being finalized. According to insiders, it looked fantastic, and was described as Kemal Curic's (Designer of the s550, and aviator amongst other things) best work yet. I hope ford finds a way to carry that design over to its own bespoke platform if it was as promising as some let on. 

[DeluxeStang]

On 1/26/2023 at 11:49 AM, LSchicago said:

Of those I like the Explorer ST, but still won't buy one. 

I think what we're seeing is the buyers who prefer practicality and value above all else are migrating to crossovers and trucks in droves. That means most remaining sedan owners tend to place greater emphasis on the more emotional aspects of sedans, things like the driving dynamics or exterior design.

 

I think there's potential for ford to return to the sedan market with a performance sedan, or something similar. They could position it at a higher price point, potentially increasing their profit margins on the product so shear sales volume becomes less of a concern. Plus it wouldn't have to go against giants in the sedan space like the Camry or accord.

 

It could be something that sells by doing something different, rather than following the herd. It seems like that's ford's approach lately, zig where others zag, and it's working out quite well for them. 

[silvrsvt]

16 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I think what we're seeing is the buyers who prefer practicality and value above all else are migrating to crossovers and trucks in droves. That means most remaining sedan owners tend to place greater emphasis on the more emotional aspects of sedans, things like the driving dynamics or exterior design.

I think most sedan buyers are buying them more on value then anything else. Even luxury car makers are all in on CUVs and SUVs instead of sedans. 
 

the one major “issue” with BEVs I see is due to the torquey nature of electric motors and overall weigh of battery packs, it hard to sell an all around performance vehicle-they are perfectly fine for straight line performance that most buyers would gravitate to (who regularly auto crosses their daily? ?) when the regular models perform good enough for most buyers?

[DeluxeStang]

9 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I think most sedan buyers are buying them more on value then anything else. Even luxury car makers are all in on CUVs and SUVs instead of sedans. 
 

the one major “issue” with BEVs I see is due to the torquey nature of electric motors and overall weigh of battery packs, it hard to sell an all around performance vehicle-they are perfectly fine for straight line performance that most buyers would gravitate to (who regularly auto crosses their daily? ?) when the regular models perform good enough for most buyers?

I don't know man, I just don't see it. As CUVs and trucks have become more affordable, fuel efficient, and car like, I just don't see how sedans offer an advantage in terms of value anymore. A Honda civic is pretty comparable in price to a Maverick, but you get way more bang for your buck with the maverick.

 

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, I do agree that a lot of sedan buyers care about pricing, especially shoppers looking at entry level compact sedans and hatches. But I think there has to be some allure to sedans beyond pricing and fuel economy. If that was all sedan buyers cared about, they'd all but Kia Souls instead. 

 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

 

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, I do agree that a lot of sedan buyers care about pricing, especially shoppers looking at entry level compact sedans and hatches. But I think there has to be some allure to sedans beyond pricing and fuel economy. If that was all sedan buyers cared about, they'd all but Kia Souls instead. 

Not all buyers but a good portion of mainstream sedan buyers especially smaller sedans like Fiesta, Focus, Corolla, etc.  
 

Different story with luxury sedans but that’s a much smaller market.
 

[DeluxeStang]

19 hours ago, akirby said:

Not all buyers but a good portion of mainstream sedan buyers especially smaller sedans like Fiesta, Focus, Corolla, etc.  
 

Different story with luxury sedans but that’s a much smaller market.
 

Oh for sure man, all I'm saying is I would buy something like a soul over a Corolla because it starts at about $1,500 less, is more practical, and has a fantastic warranty. But Toyota also has a very strong, if overhyped,reputation for longevity and resale value. So there's a trade off there.

 

As for the focus, words can't express how disappointed I was that ford pulled it out of the N. American market when they did. I appear to be in the minority here, but I think the current focus is by far the best looking hatchback ford has ever made, especially the pre-facelifted version. Plus I believe it's quite reliable, especially compared to the dumpster fire that was the previous gen. I still remember seeing leaked pics of the focus on Blue that were snagged during a photoshoot, was stunned at how good looking it was. I was so determined to buy it, then ford was like, nah.

 

Time will tell if Ford reenters the sedan market. Explorerdude hinted that ford was considering green lighting an affordable sedan for N. America if fuel prices stayed high. This was sometime in 2021. We'll see what goes down. I say bring back the escort name. 

[akirby]

Let me clarify.  Look at Focus sedan vs hatchback vs escape.  Sedan is by far the cheapest and most of the smaller sedans that you see are the cheaper versions.  Same for Fusion/Edge - big price difference.  And even though I had a Titanium fusion that was great they were few and far between with most that I see being much cheaper SEs.  In the sub $35k range price is king for a large number of buyers.  
 

Different story with $50k+ luxury/sport sedans but at that price point volume drops significantly and a lot of buyers want more utility.  It’s a difficult business case vs utilities and trucks.

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Let me clarify.  Look at Focus sedan vs hatchback vs escape.  Sedan is by far the cheapest and most of the smaller sedans that you see are the cheaper versions.  Same for Fusion/Edge - big price difference.  And even though I had a Titanium fusion that was great they were few and far between with most that I see being much cheaper SEs.  In the sub $35k range price is king for a large number of buyers.  
 

Different story with $50k+ luxury/sport sedans but at that price point volume drops significantly and a lot of buyers want more utility.  It’s a difficult business case vs utilities and trucks.

I agree with you, but I have noticed the gap in pricing between small sedans/hatchbacks, and compact crossovers and trucks is closing. 

 

5-10 years ago, compact cars had a considerable price advantage over SUVs and trucks. The cheapest sedans/hatches would be maybe 12-15k, and the cheapest crossovers were closer to 15-17. The escapes were in the low 20s. But now, it seems like things have changed.

 

A new Toyota Corolla states at over 21k, which was surprising to me. That's basically the same price as the entry level maverick. It's essentially the same thing with the civic, a mid spec civic is 25-28k give or take, about on par with a xlt maverick. A compact crossover like the soul is about 19k starting.

 

It seems as though sedans/hatches have gotten considerably more expensive over the last several years, whereas crossovers, and small trucks have been pretty consistent in pricing. There are exceptions if course, like the fusion/edge example you mentioned. Or the escape/focus, but I believe our explorer was pretty comparable in pricing to the tarus it shares a platform with. 

 

It's becoming pretty common to see lists of cheapest new cars you can buy becoming pretty varied across segments and models. It used to just be lists of small cars. Now, there's still some of that, but it's also SUVs, trucks, etc. All of which are closer in pricing that I would have initially thought.  

 

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Let me clarify.  Look at Focus sedan vs hatchback vs escape.  Sedan is by far the cheapest and most of the smaller sedans that you see are the cheaper versions.  Same for Fusion/Edge - big price difference.  And even though I had a Titanium fusion that was great they were few and far between with most that I see being much cheaper SEs.  In the sub $35k range price is king for a large number of buyers.  
 

Different story with $50k+ luxury/sport sedans but at that price point volume drops significantly and a lot of buyers want more utility.  It’s a difficult business case vs utilities and trucks.

Also an excellent point about customers at a higher price point preferring utilities for their practicality. This is a solid observation, many of these buyers expect higher levels of versatility and capability to correspond with the higher price tags.

 

There's another one, and this is where it gets really interesting imo, it pertains to image/perception. Winding the clocks back to the early to mid 90s, buyers basically had three options. These were, buy a high end luxury sedan, which was sleek, and a status symbol. Buy a mini van, which was practical, but seen as the ugly/uncool car. Or get a suv, which was also practical, cooler looking, but too rugged. 

 

Then SUVs arrived that were luxurious, practical, cool looking, and refined. Suddenly, people could have it all, all the prestige and practicality they could ever hope for. We can all remember how cool the original escalade or navigators were when they first came out. They were different, bold, something unlike anything else out there, I think this was a massive contributor to their appeal. People don't just want to be practical, they want to be different from everyone else. 

 

That raises the question, fast forward several decades, and owning an SUV is no longer the cool thing, it's so common place that we see SUV drivers now like minivan drivers were seen when SUVs first came out. Or how station wagon drivers were perceived when mini vans were revealed to the world.

 

So in a world where people want to be different from everyone else, does the popularity of the SUV mean there's potential to reintroduce high end sedans or even wagons to customers? Not because they're more practical, but because they're more fun and expressive? Idk, I just don't see this current trend of everything being an SUV lasting much longer. 

[akirby]

Yes, I’ve mentioned before how the mid 90s is where trucks and SUVs went from basic work vehicles to acceptable family transportation.  We bought a 1993 Explorer with Leather seats and a few other amenities but it still rode like a truck.  Then crossovers started with the escape and edge and you had the same cargo capacity with a better ride and better mpg.  Meanwhile the same thing happened with trucks and crew cabs became family vehicles.  So you no longer had to sacrifice utility for comfort or fuel economy.

 

I don’t see sedans making a big return but there will always be at least a niche market for them.  But it will be tough for mfrs to build sedan BEVs before they build all of the trucks and utilities just from a volume/ROI perspective.

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

 That raises the question, fast forward several decades, and owning an SUV is no longer the cool thing, it's so common place that we see SUV drivers now like minivan drivers were seen when SUVs first came out. Or how station wagon drivers were perceived when mini vans were revealed to the world.

 

The problem is (to the best I can google quickly) is the biggest percentage that Wagons ever had on the market was 10% in 1976 and first info I saw for Minivans was 6.5% back in 2004.

 

SUV/CUVs make up 52% of the market currently and that was a 2 to 1 sales advantage over sedans. 

Minivans have a stigma attached to them with younger mothers (but who normally love them once they get one) 

We more or less went back to the same formfactor cars had pre 1950. 

[Rick73]

9 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

It seems as though sedans/hatches have gotten considerably more expensive over the last several years, whereas crossovers, and small trucks have been pretty consistent in pricing. There are exceptions if course, like the fusion/edge example you mentioned. Or the escape/focus, but I believe our explorer was pretty comparable in pricing to the tarus it shares a platform with. 

 

Buyers on a tight budget still have a few choices under $20k, and for the most part they seem to also offer higher fuel economy than similar-size crossovers; particularly in highway driving.  The lower frontal area and lower Cd they offer also benefit their BEV counterparts in achieving greater highway range without having to add as much battery, weight, and cost.

 

Tesla, Lucid, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche, and others offer high-end EV sedans, so I’m curious to see if much smaller entry-level EV sedans challenge present ICE choices. 

 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g39175084/10-cheapest-new-cars-in-2022/

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

Buyers on a tight budget still have a few choices under $20k, and for the most part they seem to also offer higher fuel economy than similar-size crossovers; particularly in highway driving.  The lower frontal area and lower Cd they offer also benefit their BEV counterparts in achieving greater highway range without having to add as much battery, weight, and cost.

 

Cd doesn't come into affect till you start going over 65-70 MPH...the average speed of operating a vehicle is around 40-50 MPH...factoring in highway and local speeds. 

[mackinaw]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

The problem is (to the best I can google quickly) is the biggest percentage that Wagons ever had on the market was 10% in 1976 and first info I saw for Minivans was 6.5% back in 2004......

 

You need to go back farther.  In the late 50's, wagons sales were about 20% of sales (at least for Ford in 1957).

 

[rmc523]

On 1/27/2023 at 9:23 PM, DeluxeStang said:

Just chiming in here with my own two cents, we've heard that Lincoln could be receiving a more upscale version of the mach-e with its own unique design. I highly doubt we'll see any sort of Lincoln product based on the bronco, it's far to rugged and unrefined to be a good basis for a Lincoln unless they reengineered a ton of stuff to make it into some sort of defender rival.

 

The biggest issue with Lincoln currently is they don't really have a stellar flagship. The navigator is ok, but it doesn't wow you. From what I heard, back when ford was planning to develop a Lincoln ev on a Rivian platform, the design was close to being finalized. According to insiders, it looked fantastic, and was described as Kemal Curic's (Designer of the s550, and aviator amongst other things) best work yet. I hope ford finds a way to carry that design over to its own bespoke platform if it was as promising as some let on. 

I wish we could’ve seen that vehicle.

 

On 1/27/2023 at 9:32 PM, DeluxeStang said:

I think what we're seeing is the buyers who prefer practicality and value above all else are migrating to crossovers and trucks in droves. That means most remaining sedan owners tend to place greater emphasis on the more emotional aspects of sedans, things like the driving dynamics or exterior design.

 

I think there's potential for ford to return to the sedan market with a performance sedan, or something similar. They could position it at a higher price point, potentially increasing their profit margins on the product so shear sales volume becomes less of a concern. Plus it wouldn't have to go against giants in the sedan space like the Camry or accord.

 

It could be something that sells by doing something different, rather than following the herd. It seems like that's ford's approach lately, zig where others zag, and it's working out quite well for them. 

I’ve long said that it’d be nice if Lincoln would return with a “tweener” sedan between the size of MKZ/Zephyr and Continental.  Make it BEV and make it a sleep hatchback (like the A7, for example), so that you give back some utility factor while still having a sleek sedan-like silhouette.

maybe there’s a Ford counterpart as well that is a performance-oriented sedan that justifies a higher price and avoids the “race to the bottom” of the typical midsize sedan market.

[DeluxeStang]

17 hours ago, akirby said:

Yes, I’ve mentioned before how the mid 90s is where trucks and SUVs went from basic work vehicles to acceptable family transportation.  We bought a 1993 Explorer with Leather seats and a few other amenities but it still rode like a truck.  Then crossovers started with the escape and edge and you had the same cargo capacity with a better ride and better mpg.  Meanwhile the same thing happened with trucks and crew cabs became family vehicles.  So you no longer had to sacrifice utility for comfort or fuel economy.

 

I don’t see sedans making a big return but there will always be at least a niche market for them.  But it will be tough for mfrs to build sedan BEVs before they build all of the trucks and utilities just from a volume/ROI perspective.

Yeah, there's no doubt that things like the EV explorer, or next gen lightning are far more important to ford at the moment than reviving some sort of sedan. But one can hope haha. 

[rperez817]

7 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Yeah, there's no doubt that things like the EV explorer, or next gen lightning are far more important to ford at the moment than reviving some sort of sedan. But one can hope haha. 

 

I am hoping that Ford does have an EV sedan planned for the U.S. market. It would be nice to see a Ford competitor to Volkswagen's ID.7.

 

[silvrsvt]

21 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

You need to go back farther.  In the late 50's, wagons sales were about 20% of sales (at least for Ford in 1957).

 

 

 

Found this:

It was really in the 1950s when stations wagons soared in popularity. In the early 1950s, wooden bodies gave way to more practical all-steel bodies, often with imitation wood trim. With the growth of suburbia during the post-war boom, the two-car family became commonplace – and it made sense for many to have station wagons. By 1955, station wagons captured 9.0 per cent of total sales.

 

https://collectorsautosupply.com/blog/station-wagons-were-the-way-to-haul/

 

I can't find the site I saw the 10% of sales in 1970s...I remember it was Chrysler or something. 

[rperez817]

As an example of the efficiency advantage BEV sedans have over similarly sized crossover style vehicles and SUV, Hyundai announced today that its IONIQ 6 sedan has an EPA estimated range of up to 361 miles, 58 miles more than an equivalent IONIQ 5. 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 Official EPA Range Revealed: Up to 361 Miles (caranddriver.com)

 

Marketing campaign for IONIQ 6 with Kevin and Sosie Bacon kicks off this weekend.

 

 

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

As an example of the efficiency advantage BEV sedans have over similarly sized crossover style vehicles and SUV, Hyundai announced today that its IONIQ 6 sedan has an EPA estimated range of up to 361 miles, 58 miles more than an equivalent IONIQ 5. 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 Official EPA Range Revealed: Up to 361 Miles (caranddriver.com)

 

Like the VW ID.7, they seem to be going directly at the successful Tesla 3.  The VW is reportedly not quite as aerodynamic as the Ioniq 6, but its shape appears less controversial.  The Ioniq’s rear boat-tail look may grow on me, but for now I find the VW more attractive.

 

For some time the Tesla 3 with a range of 4 miles per kWh was the standard, but now the Lucid and Ionia 6 have raised the bar to 140 MPGe.  The Ioniq’s 361 miles on 77.4 kWh (4.66 miles/kWh) is the new number to beat for somewhat affordable BEVs.  As I mentioned before, the lower frontal area and drag coefficient of sedans (compared to SUV) is an easy way to provide acceptable range at a more reasonable cost.

 

For what it’s worth, the Ioniq’s Cd is said to be 0.22 for US model (0.21 without mirrors in other markets) and the VW ID.7 around 0.23.  These are not quite as slippery as the newest Tesla S or Lucid, but are competitive with Tesla 3.  These new car designs seem to be trending in opposite direction from large SUV and pickups that barely achieve 2.0 miles per kWh, so it will be interesting to see which buyers prefer or can afford.

[LSchicago]

On 1/27/2023 at 8:32 PM, DeluxeStang said:

I think what we're seeing is the buyers who prefer practicality and value above all else are migrating to crossovers and trucks in droves. That means most remaining sedan owners tend to place greater emphasis on the more emotional aspects of sedans, things like the driving dynamics or exterior design.

 

I think there's potential for ford to return to the sedan market with a performance sedan, or something similar. They could position it at a higher price point, potentially increasing their profit margins on the product so shear sales volume becomes less of a concern. Plus it wouldn't have to go against giants in the sedan space like the Camry or accord.

 

It could be something that sells by doing something different, rather than following the herd. It seems like that's ford's approach lately, zig where others zag, and it's working out quite well for them. 

Growing up in the 70's, we always saw sedans, wagons and 4 doors as the vehicles old people drove. It was 2 door or nothing for a car. That has stuck with me. I prefer 2 door trucks or cars, or a van has it's practicality too. I never owned a 4 door truck, and only one 4 door car. (It was an 1984 XJ6 Jaguar, bought in 1995 for $200, put $1,000 in it and sold it for $4,500 6 months later. I never intended to keep it) Never needed a 4 door car or SUV.  The Maverick will be my first 4 door truck, if Ford builds it. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by LSchicago

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, LSchicago said:

Growing up in the 70's, we always saw sedans, wagons and 4 doors as the vehicles old people drove. It was 2 door or nothing for a car. That has stuck with me. I prefer 2 door trucks or cars, or a van has it's practicality too. I never owned a 4 door truck, and only one 4 door car. (It was an 1984 XJ6 Jaguar, bought in 1995 for $200, put $1,000 in it and sold it for $4,500 6 months later. I never intended to keep it) Never needed a 4 door car or SUV.  The Maverick will be my first 4 door truck, if Ford builds it. 

Nice, hope you get your maverick soon, it's an amazing vehicle, the hybrid feels so much faster than we were expecting haha. What I love about it is it may be a four door truck, but it's a rejection of the complete insanity currently plaguing the auto industry, especially truck segments. In a world where trucks are massive, overstyled, 90k monstrosities, the maverick is a fresh breath of sanity. Makes me nostalgic for 80s mini trucks which I wasn't even alive to see. Genuinely love that little thing, it's like seeing an old friend you thought was dead. 

[rmc523]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:44 AM, rperez817 said:

 

I am hoping that Ford does have an EV sedan planned for the U.S. market. It would be nice to see a Ford competitor to Volkswagen's ID.7.

 

 

So it's a Jetta without a grille lol.

[bzcat]

6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

So it's a Jetta without a grille lol.

 

It's actually a replacement for Passat. The proportion is playing tricks on our eyes - the taller profile (to hide the battery skate platform) is making the car look shorter but it is purely an optical illusion. VW already published the dimension for ID.7 and it is slightly longer than the outgoing Passat. 

[silvrsvt]

11 hours ago, bzcat said:

VW already published the dimension for ID.7 and it is slightly longer than the outgoing Passat. 

 

I haven't seen a Passat in years around me. Or even the Arteon.